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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: #Gamergate, identity politics and the anti-feminist backlash
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
(Apologies if this has been covered in the time before I returned, but directed Google searches found me nothing.)
OK, Personal Testimony Time. For five years I professionally wrote pen-and-paper roleplaying games. I wrote, edited and curated about fifty books for a couple of publishers, and ended up getting invited to a couple of weird little conventions as Guest of Honour. I was active on internet forums during this time, and by the time I quit, I was sick of it, and the thing that burned me out more than anything else, the thing that absolutely soured me and robbed me of any enjoyment was the behaviour of the fans.
Now most of these fans were white, straight and male. They were largely middle class and more than half were not humanities educated. I had death threats for writing rulebooks people didn't like so much. Like, people actually wishing me dead. People who were so devoid of social niceties that they could go from "Oh hi, my name is" to "I know your work, yes, your work is crappy. Fucked sideways," in a single breath (not an exagerration, not a lie).
(My stuff may have been crappy. God knows, it was work-for-hire hackwork, that goes with the territory, but that's not the point.) I came out of the experience finding it hard not to view "geeks" and "geek culture" as things worthy of anything but my contempt.
Which brings me to #Gamergate. Those of you who are lucky enough not to be immersed in nerd culture may not know about this. I still have connections in the video game and pen and paper game industries, so I've heard and read about it a lot.
So there's this hashtag and basically it revolves around gamers disliking what they see as "Social Justice Warriors" taking their fun away.
Here is a fairly detailed summary of how it got to be a thing, but it's got rude words and discussion of NSFW things in it, so:
It started with two things, mainly. First, one Anita Sarkeesian, a feminist cultural critic, financed a series of YouTube videos called "Tropes Vs. Women in Video Games."
In these, she presents in a generally pretty straightforward way that loads and loads of video games have stuff in them that is sexist and which either excludes women or harms them in representation.
For her trouble, she has received rape and death threats, internet libel to a degree most American presidents don't even receive and has been forced to leave her home for the sake of her family. Just for saying some (to me) fairly uncontroversial things (flat, direct things like "all the women in Grand Theft Auto are nagging girlfriends, prostitutes and strippers" - stuff like that which is like saying "grass is green").
Meanwhile, a video game designer named Zoe Quinn, already a hate figure for having created an independent game called Depression Quest (as in, for daring to make a game about surviving clinical depression rather than killing shit), has become the other flashpoint.
It's complex and deals with private stuff, but basically her ex posted a blog where he wrote about everything bad in their relationship and accused her of having slept with a game journalist for good reviews. Whether or not she did this or not is none of anyone's business but her own, but the online gamer community, as represented by such shining bastions of equality as 4chan and Reddit, went on a massive witch hunt against Quinn, as well as renewing their efforts against Sarkeesian, in the name of journalistic ethics.
(Never mind that if a journalist gives someone a good review after sleeping with them, one might think that is entirely due to the journalist's ethics being compromised).
A number of opinion pieces about the bankruptcy of "gamer" as an identity (bunch of links to well-done articles here and a great leftist one here) only fanned the flames, and it has become a wide-spread online crusade against "social justice warriors". People like Adam Baldwin (from inexplicably beloved sci-fi show Firefly) and a number of right-wing pundits have become celebrity advocates, and in terms of the games industry it has a remarkable amount of traction, even at the higher levels of management.
I think it's obvious where I stand on this.
What interests me is how the anger and defensiveness of these people is expressing itself, how (nearly all) straight (mostly) white (almost solely) men have seen what amounts to a couple of puff pieces and some women who are either making games they don't want to play anyway or saying, hey, look, maybe your entertainment is harming me have become huge identity-threatening threats.
"It's just the internet" is not an answer, because then we have to ask how exactly the internet makes that a Thing.
Because let's face it, an indie game designer, a woman who does YouTube videos and some bloggers do not have the power that big videogame companies and millions of male gamers have. They are not a threat. Or maybe they are, just not to what they're perceived to be a threat against.
(And maybe we can talk about "gamer" as an identity and whether that's problematic, because I sort of think it really is but to be honest, I've written enough in this OP.)
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
Freud would probably say it is infantile rage against the mother for not changing the nappy often enough. I'd probably say that he probably would be close to being right if he ever said such a thing.
I would also consider making forward-looking pushchairs illegal below a certain age (4?).
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
By backing themselves into the corner of ONLY being able to function in the gaming world, these guys* are now seeing everything outside that world as a threat.
That, plus being unable to hold a job, makes the crowd angry and pushes them into supporting each other because "no-one else cares" (why should they?)
And then teh Internet allows for anonymous venting to a degree that is simply not possible IRL.
We've allowed this kind of threat to develop on the Web in the interests of "free speech" or "getting everyone in" or whatever, without imposing any behaviour rules. The biggest problem would be enforcement unless you demand identifier tag, and a mechanism for actually making the dolts accountable.
But exactly the same behaviour would occur IRL if you allowed the wearing of masks in public.
Some people would think it fun to slag off everyone, others would become stalkers, others would create actual mayhem. That's what free will does to people.
*There may be responsible gamers, but we hear from the unemployables and the "F*** everyone" crowd. The rest just keep their heads down, since they don't want Wood's experience.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
I think it's partly that some people, who never intended to be seen as bad guys, are so desperate not to be seen as the bad guys, they do the very things they're accused of.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
Isn't just the gaming world that is having these anti-feminist backlashes. The atheists have also been having this over the last few years (elevatorgate, creep list, allegations of a blind eye to sexual assault on women who attend some conferences [sometimes because the alleged assaulter is a prominent male atheist], bias in choosing speakers).
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Isn't just the gaming world that is having these anti-feminist backlashes. The atheists have also been having this over the last few years (elevatorgate, creep list, allegations of a blind eye to sexual assault on women who attend some conferences [sometimes because the alleged assaulter is a prominent male atheist], bias in choosing speakers).
Yes. There is a group of prominent New Atheists who are basically misogynist shitbags (which loops us back to the subject matter of the "scientism" thread).
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Somehow I have read about the Zoe Quinn case, I don't know what directed me to that. Trying to look from the positive side, at least there is some discussion going on about these things now.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I was with you till you slogged off firefly - a series where the Adam Baldwin character was a necessary evil rather than the male expectation. And the real stars were female.
Anyhow, we can disagree on that. Hardline gamers are notoriously anti-social, often because they are autistic to a degree and find it very difficult to function in a social environment. This is not meant to be disparaging of autism, just a reflection that the socially difficult aspects are a part of it, and the gaming environment tends to enhance rather than diminish this.
I speak as someone who is mildly autistic, and has a son who is also mildly autistic and is something of a gamer.
The nature of the gaming environment - interacting online - can mean that, rather than enhancing communications using all of the subtlety and nuance that most people use, they become even less subtle. For many people, online communications are faceless, and so people can be far more unpleasant than they would be face-to-face (the vile abuse that anyone who stands up for feminism on twitter, for example, seems to find out).
It isn't all gamers. It isn't all men. But those within the community need to stand up more to change the ethos, because they are all tarred with the same brush. There are some vile and unpleasant people out there. There are many more who are not horrible people, but who struggle to communicate clearly in some situations.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
If art is a reflection of society, and video games are art, many young people are already in the toilet. Disposable people. Was it Ronald Raygun or one of the idiot Bushes who said war and killing video games were good because they trained the cannon fodder* for the next war? The feminist backlash isn't really a backlash, it is a reset.
*I think which ever bastard American president it was said soldiers, but the point is made.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
It's worth noting that those associated with the "backlash" are not representative of all or even most gamers. The largest gaming community on the internet, RPGnet, has a consciously pro-feminist ethos and set of policies - indeed it is far stricter than the Ship in terms of attitudes towards women and LGBT folk. Plenty of gamers, including me, are socially inept and/or autistic, but that is not an excuse or a reason for sexism, sexual harassment or sexual assault. If you're high enough functioning to game then you're high enough functioning to learn how to treat other people, including and especially women.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I should point out/clarify that I wasn't criticising gamers or those with autism. It is more that gaming can be a way that those with some aspects of autism find to engage, but which doesn't necessarily help them engage with people face-to-face.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
That, plus being unable to hold a job, makes the crowd angry and pushes them into supporting each other because "no-one else cares" (why should they?)
No - I think this kind of thinking exculpates the perpetrators of such things.
The kind of people involved are just younger variants of the standard internet troll - who turn out to be mostly middle-aged, middle-class males.
I think there just happens to be a strain of online geekery which is actively nasty - not just to women, but to the disenfranchised generally. It's people who sped read Ayn Rand and thought that because they were slightly above average academically that they were special.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
That, plus being unable to hold a job, makes the crowd angry and pushes them into supporting each other because "no-one else cares" (why should they?)
No - I think this kind of thinking exculpates the perpetrators of such things.
The kind of people involved are just younger variants of the standard internet troll - who turn out to be mostly middle-aged, middle-class males.
I think there just happens to be a strain of online geekery which is actively nasty - not just to women, but to the disenfranchised generally. It's people who sped read Ayn Rand and thought that because they were slightly above average academically that they were special.
I wish this wasn't so accurate.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
That, plus being unable to hold a job, makes the crowd angry and pushes them into supporting each other because "no-one else cares" (why should they?)
No - I think this kind of thinking exculpates the perpetrators of such things.
The kind of people involved are just younger variants of the standard internet troll - who turn out to be mostly middle-aged, middle-class males.
I think there just happens to be a strain of online geekery which is actively nasty - not just to women, but to the disenfranchised generally. It's people who sped read Ayn Rand and thought that because they were slightly above average academically that they were special.
Indeed:
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I've seen this in comics fandom as well, especially as more female creators and fans have gotten involved in comics, and some of the same issues about depiction of women (and ethnic/religious/sexual minorities, too) have been raised.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Wood wrote: quote:
I wish this wasn't so accurate.
Accurate about what, though? I know of no academic research about internet trolling that shows any such socio-economic correlation. If you are finding yourself bumping into that sort of person, then you are probably yourself frequenting the sort of online locales that attract that socioeconomic class. Though if you know of any research to the contrary, then please correct me.
There doesn't seem to be a huge amount of research on internet trolling. The most recent work I am aware of points to a high correlation with the "dark tetrad" of personality disorders. And in fact, the simple observation that those who behave abominably on the internet are the same people who behave abominably in real life. Trolls score well above average for sadistic personality disorder. Thogh it should be said that personality disorders tend to cluster together, and they also show elevated signs of other personality disorders - that may just be our poor understanding of what underlies such disorders, and we have to classify them experientially.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Much as it pains me to agree with you, and especially Wood, I agree with the OP.
Games are merely a way of enforcing sexist stereotypes. The Howard Wolowitz's of the world united.
That's from me!
Women are whores or nag. Black people are addicts or thieves. It goes on and on.
But here's where we split...
In the fifties and sixties we had Lord Reith in charge of the BBC and nothing like that could be shown. The Liberal elite had a conniption and so TV and cinema were slowly 'liberalised'.
The games industry started up seriously in the mid 90's and nobody wanted to censor it for fear of being called a throwback to the fifties.
Then came the internet and it's porn.
What do you want? Censorship or liberalism?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Some games. Bioware put out titles that are pretty egalitarian, and their main market is CRPGs.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
In the fifties and sixties we had Lord Reith in charge of the BBC
Good trick, given he resigned as DG in 1938.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
In the fifties and sixties we had Lord Reith in charge of the BBC
Good trick, given he resigned as DG in 1938.
Of course. I meant his rules, his code of conduct. My apologies.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Yes. There is a group of prominent New Atheists who are basically misogynist shitbags (which loops us back to the subject matter of the "scientism" thread).
For the record, I've met atheists who treat their current partners like queens.
The breath-taking Japanese game Okami had a mission where the player must inspire the young boy Kokari to start seeking his own adventures. The irony in this is that if the player was also inspired, he'd stop playing the game and the developers would be deliberately reducing their own market.
In Okami's day, publishers and developers would develop some games for art and some for profit. Nowadays, it simply has to be for profit.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
What do you want? Censorship or liberalism?
Neither.
Dialogue.
It can't be dialogue if half of the argument is silenced with death threats, rape threats, and slander. And Wood is right, any gamer guy worth the stones he owns needs to speak up.
On that note, I am going to kick back and let him, Schrodinger's Cat, and no prophet keep doing the excellent job they are doing.
[ 08. October 2014, 00:46: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
In the fifties and sixties we had Lord Reith in charge of the BBC and nothing like that could be shown. The Liberal elite had a conniption and so TV and cinema were slowly 'liberalised'.
The games industry started up seriously in the mid 90's and nobody wanted to censor it for fear of being called a throwback to the fifties.
Could you expand on this a little? Particularly the bit about how an industry largely based in the U.S. and Japan was so strongly influenced by a backlash against BBC policy. There seems to be a missing step or several in there.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
In Okami's day, publishers and developers would develop some games for art and some for profit. Nowadays, it simply has to be for profit.
I'm not so sure about that. Developers have always wanted to make money out of their games, I think, and now the likes of Kickstarter means they can put their ideas out there and see if there is a market rather than having to take the risk and do the (very costly) work first. There are a lot of indie developers making things because they think they're cool.
[code]
[ 08. October 2014, 06:38: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
Maybe this is more accurate:
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
In Okami's day, publishers and developers would develop some high-risk original licenses and some low-risk existing licenses. Nowadays, it simply has to be low-risk existing licenses.
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
I think there's a bit of a gap (OK, yawning gulf) between the two things, Alex.
Harassing, abusing, stalking, issuing rape/death threats etc. is not simply a failure to venerate confused with a lack of respect. It's offensive, anti-social, and at times no doubt illegal behaviour, full stop.
So whilst at the extremes there may well be a few cases where the venerate/respect thing holds true, they're such out-liers as to be largely irrelevant in the general case, and definitely irrelevant in the specific case at hand.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Alex - surely the underlying criticism of the gamer culture is that it is dysfunctional in its attitude towards women. Of course women are going to be the most vocal about this - they are on the receiving end of it!
It's a pretty closed and inward looking culture as well. All inward-looking cultures face similar issues about having norms that drift away from society's more general attitudes. As a result of this whole #gamergate thing, it's all gone public, and what was once a discussion that had limited coverage outside the gaming community has now been laid bare for all to see.
Oh, and what snags just said.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
Good Wiki coverage of Gamergate - https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/wiki/index
One of the charges alleged against Zoe Quinn was playing out akin to the payola scandals in the music industry in the 50s and 60s; in this case there was the suspicion of possible sexual favours for promotional placement. Shady journalism..
Ir's also a good thing to compare earlier geek subculture with mainstream releases of the time. for instance - Star Wars, which subverted the Princess/Damsel trope went out at the same time as Blue Lagoon, where Brooke Shields played a rich man's fucktoy in essence. Which was the better role-model? Carrie Fisher's character or Brooke Shields' one? The "Nothing comes between me and my Calvins" ad was also playing at the time.
Sarkeesian almost went to slagging off Ellen Ripley - now if THAT isn't a strong egalitarian rolemodel I don't know who is.
A lot of the mainstream debate now was already covered in SF TV and film years ago - 1980s videogames were where SF film was back in the 50s...
Gamergate pissed off a LOT of female gamers and developers as well- just monitor the #notyourshield tag as well.
Sarkeesian and Quinn come across as "patriarchial feminists" - the bullies to quote Alison Tieman who writes on
Genderratic and the Honey Badger Brigade site listed above.
I suffered at the hands of bullies like Sarkeesian.
To see how far *ahead* some sectors of mainstream society parts of geek culture are - look at how sexual dynamics and acceptance of equal respect plays out in Babylon 5. This was aired in the 90s... mainstream was closer to Lexx in playout..
[ 08. October 2014, 11:11: Message edited by: Alex Cockell ]
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Alex - if you'll pardon my saying so, you are letting yourself get dragged into this whole American culture wars thing again. It's obfuscating the main point.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
That "failure to venerate" opinion is so stupid, I don't know where to start. These women are the subject of death threats, rape threats and slurs that, were it not almost impossible to police, in many places be criminal offences.
The cries to journalistic integrity only count when the journalistic outlets that are supposedly corrupt are being targeted. They're not, except when they say it's standing up and saying that it's wrong to threaten and vilify these women for doing... not much.
Like the office bully who, when accused of harassment, calls it "banter", failing to realise that it's only banter when the object of it says it is.
What's happening in #Gamergate though, more than anything, is actually in the name, gamers keeping a gate through which they don't want women, or gay people, or "social justice warriors" coming. Because it might change the games they play.
And lest we forget, the games they play which define, apparently, their identity, the label they apply to themselves which in and of itself is problematic, because it's an identity that
depends upon consuming things. Because people who call themselves "gamers" keep up with new developments in digital mass-media. They buy stuff.
It's been coming for a while. I am reminded of an earlier flashpoint in this when Carolyn Petit at Gamespot gave GTA V 9/10, dropping a mark because of its representation of women, and gamers campaigned to have her fired.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Alex Cockell: Good Wiki coverage of Gamergate
Do you know what 'Wiki' means?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
I honestly didn't think anyone would come out as a supporter of this. I'm stunned.
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Good Wiki coverage of Gamergate - https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/wiki/index
I just laughed out loud at the screen.
"GamerGate is a consumer revolt triggered by overt politicization, ethical misconduct, and unprecedented amounts of censorship targeted at gamers."
Please. This is precisely the sort of shit I was talking about in the OP.
quote:
One of the charges alleged against Zoe Quinn was playing out akin to the payola scandals in the music industry in the 50s and 60s; in this case there was the suspicion of possible sexual favours for promotional placement. Shady journalism..
And yet that would be on the journalists. Why is that not on the journalists?
Why are they targeting the women?
quote:
I suffered at the hands of bullies like Sarkeesian.
I am. Um. I. Um. I honestly don't even know where to start.
Really? Really?
Let me ask you some serious questions here.
Have you been threatened with rape?
Have you been threatened with murder?
Has Anita Sarkeesian personally tried to harm you?
Has anyone gone on the internet and posted your home address in order to incite people to physical violence against you?
Tell us how you've suffered, Alex.
Part of the problem is this: we are reaching a point where there are people going, "yeah but Sarkeesian's methodology is flawed" (it isn't) "and her opinions are often wrong" (even I am not down with everything she says, even if most of it is flatly obvious to anyone with an ounce of regard for fellow human beings) and this is more or less equivalent to the people who were going "yeah but they were working for international capitalism and the US was horrible in the Middle East" when people mentioned the victims of 9/11, as if that made stealing a jumbo jet and murdering thousands of people was somehow justified.
We call this "victim-blaming". Like the people who go "she shouldn't have gone out alone dressed like that" when they should be saying, "he shouldn't have fucking raped her." Or the people who said Jennifer Lawrence should have use two step encryption on her phone when they should be talking about the bastards who stole her private things.
No. It is not acceptable.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Alex Cockell: Good Wiki coverage of Gamergate
Do you know what 'Wiki' means?
More importantly, it isn't good Wiki coverage because it is the wiki maintained by one of the online sources who are responsible for the whole #Gamergate thing. That is, it is not balanced, because it is the perpetrators' organ.
[ 08. October 2014, 11:47: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Good Wiki coverage of Gamergate - https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/wiki/index
One of the charges alleged against Zoe Quinn was playing out akin to the payola scandals in the music industry in the 50s and 60s; in this case there was the suspicion of possible sexual favours for promotional placement. Shady journalism..
Ir's also a good thing to compare earlier geek subculture with mainstream releases of the time. for instance - Star Wars, which subverted the Princess/Damsel trope went out at the same time as Blue Lagoon, where Brooke Shields played a rich man's fucktoy in essence. Which was the better role-model? Carrie Fisher's character or Brooke Shields' one? The "Nothing comes between me and my Calvins" ad was also playing at the time.
Sarkeesian almost went to slagging off Ellen Ripley - now if THAT isn't a strong egalitarian rolemodel I don't know who is.
A lot of the mainstream debate now was already covered in SF TV and film years ago - 1980s videogames were where SF film was back in the 50s...
Gamergate pissed off a LOT of female gamers and developers as well- just monitor the #notyourshield tag as well.
Sarkeesian and Quinn come across as "patriarchial feminists" - the bullies to quote Alison Tieman who writes on
Genderratic and the Honey Badger Brigade site listed above.
I suffered at the hands of bullies like Sarkeesian.
To see how far *ahead* some sectors of mainstream society parts of geek culture are - look at how sexual dynamics and acceptance of equal respect plays out in Babylon 5. This was aired in the 90s... mainstream was closer to Lexx in playout..
That's not a wiki. It's a list from Reddit. On this issue, Reddit has just a big an axe to grind as some of the people you're complaining about. The actual http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy entry gives a much more balanced view of the whole issue. The conculsion is pure gold:
Alex Goldman from On the Media wrote that he recognized legitimate complaints in #GamerGate concerning the relationship between the video game industry and journalists, and that there is diversity within the gamer community, but noted that the movement's decision to focus on female indie developers and its involvement in harassment had caused it to lose mainstream credibility. "If you see yourself as a bloc of people who call themselves "gamers," to outsiders you are only as good as your worst representatives, and the past month have shown those representatives to be racist, homophobic, misogynist, and threatening. If you want to be seen as a monolith, publicly shame the bad actors in your cohort. If you want to be seen as individuals, well, stop calling yourself gamers. Come up with some other means of self-identification. Because as of right now, the worst people standing behind the mantle of gamer have spoiled it for all of you".
In a varient of Godwin's law, your arguement must be automatically lost if you have to threaten your opponent with rape, violence or harass and bully them to make some sort of point.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
I was sexually abused by socially powerful predatory girls partially due to my unknown at the time autism. I was systematically bullied by both predatory boys AND girls through my school years. I was silenced by my assailants threatening to cry rape.
I have experienced the dark side of female sexuality first-hand, where it is fully weaponised.
Sarkeesian was quoted as finding games "really grose" - she quoted content out of context - didn't understand character arcs etc..
Dirt is on many hands here - on Quinn and Sarkeesian etc for not playing aboveboard, Quinn for allegedly cheating on her partner, AND for sexual payola. Journos are at fault for playing the game as well - just as both radio stations and record studios were during payola.
I don't buy this "women are always victims" crap for one instance - as I also suffered the cognitive dissonance of being called a "rapist" by the overwhelming voice of 2nd Wave Feminism at the same time as I was being raped by predatory women.
I escaped into the nascent geek and home computing subculture - which has been gentrified since.
Many of the key developers on Bioshock etc are women, and what have the SJWs come up with? A reskinned Alex Kidd-type run-and-gun but with tampons.
Christina Hoff-Sommers, who was there during first-wave feminism (as was Warren Farrell, Swayne O'Pye, Camille Paglia, Doris Lessing etc) is defending the gamers against gynocentrism-on-steroids (steinem-flavour Gender Feminism)
Most gamers are FAR more egalitarian.
Most of the Honeybadgers used to be feminists.
http://www.genderratic.com/p/4567/its-shit-like-this-feminists-on-womens-natural-insight-a-misogynist-trope/
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I was sexually abused by socially powerful predatory girls partially due to my unknown at the time autism. I was systematically bullied by both predatory boys AND girls through my school years. I was silenced by my assailants threatening to cry rape.
I have experienced the dark side of female sexuality first-hand, where it is fully weaponised.
Alex, I am sorry to hear this, I truly am.
But this is not that conflict. This is not your trauma playing out.
The trauma that I do not doubt you have personally experienced doesn't justify supporting a movement that solely, despite its rhetoric, exists to harm and exclude (not just specific) women. If anything, supporting a movement whose prominent members threaten rape and violence puts you in danger of being on the side of the abuser.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Tell us how you've suffered, Alex.
This is not the place or the topic on which to invite personal disclosure, and probably not the place or the topic on which to volunteer it. Admins will be watching this thread to ensure compliance with previous host & admin warnings in this respect.
/hosting
[x-post, but still applies]
[ 08. October 2014, 12:18: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
For the record, the #notyourshield tag has been used by a lot of people to differentiate themselves from the idiots sending the death threats etc. However, part of it is hyperbole on the part of the oversensitive.
There does seem to be a double-standard in operation with single-sex spaces though - female feminists are allowed theirs - but men aren't? Are they not to be trusted?
What does this say about some feminists' views on men? Just asking...
[ 08. October 2014, 12:30: Message edited by: Alex Cockell ]
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Many of the key developers on Bioshock etc are women, and what have the SJWs come up with? A reskinned Alex Kidd-type run-and-gun but with tampons.
I find your use of the SJWs acronym very telling. The use of that term in relation to #gamergate was 4chan's method of deflecting any attention from their real agenda:
quote:
From this Wired article:
As for #notyourshield, its first reference appears on the /v/ video games board on 4chan as a suggestion for responding to "social justice warriors" who claimed the #GamerGate campaign was misogynistic. "Something like #NotYourShield and demand the SJWs stop using you as a shield to deflect genuine criticism," an anonymous user wrote on September 2.
There is a war going on, and people are dying. I know of two suicides just from the last week, let alone the amount of women leaving the tech industry because of bullshit like this.
The real issue is how women in the tech industry are treated by the men who are in positions of power. It affects everything from salary and promotions all the way down to conference attendees asking "Are you here with your husband?". It affects the stereotypes of woman = casual gamer while man = hardcore gamer. It affects how a woman who rocks the boat is seen as bossy whereas a man would be seen as strong and assertive. And all this is before we get to the actions of the hate trolls, who think nothing of doxxing, SWATting, gaslighting and more.
Women in tech are starting to stand up for themselves. Gamergate was created in order to silence those women by diverting attention. This has been proven through chat logs from 4chan's IRC server.
Brianna Wu (the head of game studio Giant Spacekat) says it better than I can:
quote:
So, I want to be really clear about something. #gamergate is not a controversy that will die down. It's a playbook being used against women.
The truth is, we're currently seeing a full-blown war on women. You're seeing it politically, and you're seeing it in the tech world. They don't see themselves as sexists. They see themselves as noble warriors. And their goal is to silence us and destroy our careers. This will not stop. This will not go away. There are men out there that hate women and are dedicating their lives to destroying us.
The #gamergate playbook is VERY straightforward. Find female targets. Stoke a fire against them. Assemble material attacking them. Then, repeat over and over again that it's not about attacking women. Set up tons of fake accounts to attack anyone that says otherwise. Then, do everything you can to harass these women and destroy their careers. This also intimidates women on the sidelines into being quiet.
It's well organized and it's relentless. There are people that literally do nothing with their lives but try to destroy women.
There is NO WOMAN IN TECH that should not be in serious fear about this. #gamergate could decide to attack any woman you know.
(As for "what have the SJWs come up with? A reskinned Alex Kidd-type run-and-gun but with tampons.", Brianna's game Revolution 60 is hugely successful, and Brianna is as big a proponent of social justice as you could get. But that's a tangent — people don't only deserve respect if they make good products.)
I am a woman in tech. I have experienced comments, attitudes and biases that come from an entrenched culture of sexism. Mercifully, I've never been the target of a hate campaign like Zoe has. Also, I've been lucky enough to have worked with some very supportive allies, and it is through their support that I've had the strength to face this industry. But every morning I wake up with a fear that today it might be my turn, that I might log on to Twitter and find my personal details alongside a call to arms by misogynistic vigilantes.
Amy
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
There does seem to be a double-standard in operation with single-sex spaces though - female feminists are allowed theirs - but men aren't? Are they not to be trusted?
That's an argument that falls down as soon as it's pointed out that in this case the single-sex space that you're trying to maintain consists of the entire gaming industry and community.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
I don't know what to make of it myself- all I know is that from what I understand there is a lot more intrasexual shaming going on rather than external.
Put the bio imperatives in there as well - and apparently I as a marginalised man am being ordered to be a disposable pawn in women's games against each other?
Or something.
Plays into "he for she" - but what about me?
Are men and women equal - or are we "beta males" disposable pawns?
I just don't know...
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Agh. That phrase 'beta male.' This is an ugly way to classify men, and for your own sanity and happiness you might consider giving up applying it to yourself.
I assure you that women do not use such classifications; we do not sort men into 'alpha' and 'beta' boxes and then treat them differently. (And I can, if you wish, produce reams of proof to back this up. You want a list of romance novels that star beta males? It will come to many many pages.)
"Alpha" and 'beta' is a classification system invented by men, to put other men down. Do not play that little game.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
This isn't women vs men. It's women + allies vs mysogynists. Men have the power to choose which group they belong to.
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Put the bio imperatives in there as well - and apparently I as a marginalised man am being ordered to be a disposable pawn in women's games against each other?
Or something.
Nobody is making you a pawn.
It is entirely possible to be marginalised in one category and have privilege in another. I'm white, so I have white privilege — which means that at the very least, when there's a discussion about racism, I don't stick my neck out and assume I know the full implications of what goes on.
There is absolutely no danger of anything swinging the other way. We're objecting to people sticking a "No girls allowed" sign on the door to the fort. That doesn't mean anyone wants to stick a "No boys allowed" sign on the same door. We just want there to be no god damned sign at all!
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Amorya: It's women + allies vs mysogynists. Men have the power to choose which group they belong to.
I know which group is more fun.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
Thanks for that - all part of the disorientation I still feel when I observe full-on weaponised power games going on...
I suppose I was just shoved out on the margins - the outcasts created geek culture...
Hence the understanding about hjow it can seem as though it's undergoing "gentrification".
[ 08. October 2014, 13:43: Message edited by: Alex Cockell ]
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
How does tackling misogyny and homophobia equal gentrification?? Surely in that case it's a good thing, then? Unless you think that misogyny and homophobia are good things to be preserved...?
It all just smacks of 'I was so enjoying getting to be misogynistic and now these mean women are ruining my fun'. Well, sorry, but most people rather dislike misogyny so you're out of luck there.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
I just don't know any more. I don't understand why I am shamed for being male, white and straight.
I don't understand the hatred and shaming language..
I just want to be left alone.
Is it "misogyny" to simply point out that women have a dark side, and sometimes innocent bystanders get hurt badly?
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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