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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: #Gamergate, identity politics and the anti-feminist backlash
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Morbid curiosity makes me follow the comments sections on these debates, too and the sense I get is once the Usual Suspects spit out whatever talking points they've regurgitated from whatever MRA group they have bonded with, they have nothing left to argue with but anger, insults, and threats. And as Snags points out, people who are inclined to argue reasonably eventually just realize the futility of getting any other response, and drift away.
I would encourage the decent gamers to consider that their well-placed, occasional word of rebuke has more impact than they might realize in real life. On another thread I told a story about a godawful gaming companion of mine (A.) who used to harass the two women in the group with sexist (and racist) comments. This was the thing-- for the most part, the other guys in the group would squirm with embarrassment and beg us to ignore him rather than provoke argument, but when that one guy Brian slammed a Shadowrun manual shut and refused to run a game unless the rude guy apologized to us, it ended that problem fairly quickly.
Looking back, if the majority of men in the group had the rhetorical weapons that I see men using now, they would have settled A.s hash pretty quickly with an eyeroll and a muttered "#gamergate..."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
No. But apparently yes ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
But then, that's because it really matters to these guys and actually the simple fact that it does is in and of itself troubling.
I find myself feeling the most pity for the ones who accuse other men of "white knighting" (ie defending a woman because they think they are in with a chance of getting laid) because I think, how stunted, how morally and emotionally crippled you must be to be unable to conceive of someone defending another's dignity without an ulterior motive.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
There's not much I can add here other than to be very very confused by people who declare their opposition to be "Social Justice Warriors".
I'm not a gamer. But I've been hanging with gamers and attempting to teach them basic social skills my entire life.
At this point, calling yourself a "Social Justice Warrior" is approximately equivalent to admitting that you are a sociopath and proud of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
My question: Does nobody understand the concept of the ad hominem attack anymore? Is it really so difficult to say, "We believe in free speech and discussion of all views, including unpopular ones, but not in personal attacks"? We seem to manage it fairly well here in the small and civil world of the Ship, reminding people that you can attack the issue as vigourously as you like but not the person making the point (unless in Hell). But then, even in Hell we don't seem to draw many of the type of people who would link to a picture of a mutilated corpse with another Shipmate's head superimposed on it with the headline "YOUR NEXT" simply because they held a differing view on, say, transubstantiation. (Obviously the community would never allow anyone to get away with the egregious you're/your error, for starters).
So why is it hard for people who are fearless defenders of free speech on the internet to get this distinction? Is it really that hard to see the boundary between, "I disagree with what Anita Sarkeesian said about the portrayal of women in video games and here are sixteen examples from Grand Theft Auto that demonstrate why I'm right and she's wrong," and "She's a [insert derogatory term for a woman here] who should be [insert unpleasant thing to do to her here] and here's her home address so you can go do it." Freedom of speech can certainly allow one while forbidding the other.
Is this really such a difficult distinction to make?
Apparently.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Sometimes feminists can be dicks too. Go you for showing us that!
Social Justice Warrior is a term of abuse created by people who think fighting for social justice is something to be abused rather than admired.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
I've lurked on reddit for many years, and noticed the repeated juxtaposition of these two typical threads on the sub askreddit:
"Lol middle-aged women are so stupid when it comes to computers"
"Hey does anyone around here know how to cook?"
It occurred to me that some social tides have increased the drifting apart of young men (stereotypically a large component of the gamer community) and middle-aged women (stereotypically a large component of the feminist movement). A hundred years ago in this rural area, both would be working together on family farms, and even if there was a division of labour, both were visibly and daily working toward the same goal.
ISTM that trolls are particularly vicious to younger, more attractive women who are feminists. I have a theory about that, but you can work out your own. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
In Canada, a very recent Supreme Court decision held that threats can constitute a form of violence. Link
here. Every "Freedom of Speech" fundamentalist should consider why threats of harm are illegal, and have been so under common law long before 'those pussy wimmin' got the right to vote.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
I love how that page has as its subtitle "free minds and free markets" like they're not mutually exclusive.
/grumpy socialist
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Sometimes feminists can be dicks too. Go you for showing us that!
Oh, look. Progress.
A couple of years ago when I was complaining about people making up rumors and lies (in particular about my sex life) because I stepped off the liberal feminist party line on some issues I repeatedly got told that women wouldn't do things like that because they understand what it's like or would be like to be the victim.
quote:
Social Justice Warrior is a term of abuse created by people who think fighting for social justice is something to be abused rather than admired.
No. We may disagree on the origin of the term depending on when and where we first heard it. But Social Justice Warrior is an attack on the person making the argument rather than the argument. Generally used when the argument advanced is so stupid and irrational that, in Ship's terms, one person can't respond without calling the other person to Hell. It is, for example, a way to attack a particular feminist without attacking everyone who calls themselves a feminist.
It's just that there are people who seem to see the entire world (including the real world) as Hell.
Having been almost SWATTED (the cops in my small town having declined to follow orders to send the SWAT team rather than handle it themselves), Social Justice Warriors terrify me. They're like Black Panthers without goals or leadership or any ethics whatsoever. And they make others do their dirty work for them so they can claim their hands are clean and keep their liberal sanctimony.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
SaySay, did you read the posts on the previous page pointing out feminism's internal problems?
Anyway, we know there are asshole feminists. Now tell me how that has one single fucking point of bearing on our reaction to the sort of people who post rape and death threats and dox people for doing non-asshole things.
I'm sure there were a fair number of assholes died in the World Trade Centre. So. Fucking. What? That makes this sort of hate all right?
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
I honestly don't know how to respond to respond to the rest of that post. It's so virulently and self-evidently wrong, like grass-is-pink wrong, that I do not have a clue where to start.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
SaySay, words may have different meanings in different contexts. Whatever SJW means to you, in the context of the community under discussion it is a term of abuse used to deride, belittle and dismiss people who are against misogyny, racism, abuse etc. It just is.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
SaySay, did you read the posts on the previous page pointing out feminism's internal problems?
I did, but I really don't care about feminism any more. The movement has betrayed me so badly and made it so clear to me that there is nothing I can do to make myself acceptable enough to be included.
And that's fine. Not everyone has to be included in everything.
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
I'm sure there were a fair number of assholes died in the World Trade Centre. So. Fucking. What? That makes this sort of hate all right?
Who the hell said that this sort of hate was all right? Would it not make sense that as a person who has received those kinds of rape and death threats and was SWATTED that I would NOT approve of such behavior? Why would you read that kind of malice into a post on a Christian web site?
In the real world I tend to appeal to people's religious beliefs and the argument about how we should always either treat people how we would like to be treated or how they would like to be treated.
Try that with this type online and they go on and on about how they hope my sky daddy gives me some degree of comfort and wonder if I'll be able to eat that comfort when no one will employ me but oh at least I'll know where I'm going after I die which could be tomorrow. And then there's usually something about Pink Unicorns, teacups, the Flying Spaghetti monster, blah, blah, Dawkins, Hitchens, Sam Harris, blah.
The gamers I'm friends with get annoyed by the Mickey Mouse, trying-to-teach-your-grandmother-to-suck-eggs, I-didn't-even-have-to-graduate-from-Linoln-high-school-to-know-that approach to some of these issues that Social Justice Warriors tend to take.
And, it's true, we all refuse to redefine the word privilege from how it was defined back when we were doing spelling and vocab every Monday, seeing as how there are other perfectly good words you can use to get the idea across.
But the online arguing sounds like siblings squabbling and both claiming "but she/he started it!"
Only these eight-year-olds have Uzi's.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
SaySay, words may have different meanings in different contexts. Whatever SJW means to you, in the context of the community under discussion it is a term of abuse used to deride, belittle and dismiss people who are against misogyny, racism, abuse etc. It just is.
I'll take your word for it, not being a gamer.
Although I submit we may have different ideas what being against misogyny, racism, and abuse means. As well as possibly about what tactics it is acceptable to deploy in the battle.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I feel like I'm reading half a conversation here. I genuinely (as a fairly young straight white male austistic socially awkward gamer) cannot fathom what the rage is about. The sheer level of anger directed at people doing the socio-political equivalent of trying on their mum's (or dad's?) make-up and making a mess of it.
I can kind of understand how men who feel they've been rejected by every woman they've shown an interest in start to feel hard done by (heck, there but for the grace of God go I in many ways) but I can't figure out why this gets turned into such apoplectic rage and hatred.
Two posters in this thread have backed up an anti-feminist position, which I naturally disagree with, but the rage that comes through in those posts in just incredible, way beyond anything I've seen from any feminist, or indeed any gay rights campaigner, anti-racism campaigner or anyone else who might have a genuine grievance.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
To be honest it's more fun being a Social Justice Bard. Although I'd settle for Social Justice Cleric.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
(Wood, that wins the thread in my book.)
I admit I am so far from the position of people like Kathy Sierra that I have trouble understanding it. If I felt generally unsafe I'd try to be a hard target (physically) and expect that bullies won't really attack someone who will fight back. (If I felt specifically physically unsafe, obviously I'd call the police.) I suspect it's mainly my privilege that makes me not be able to imagine living in the first world and leaving your home etc because you were scared of bullying MRA-type idiots. But I still can't imagine it.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I admit I am so far from the position of people like Kathy Sierra that I have trouble understanding it. If I felt generally unsafe I'd try to be a hard target (physically) and expect that bullies won't really attack someone who will fight back. (If I felt specifically physically unsafe, obviously I'd call the police.)
Unfortunately, these types of bullies will attack someone who will fight back. They think it's funny when you try to fight back like you might win (and I've had martial arts training). Although, IME, frequently it's not about fighting to the finish, but keeping you on your toes afraid to speak out. Unfortunately there's not a lot the police can do when someone you've never seen before punches you with none of the normal warning signs and then runs. They can take a report, but unless there's video surveillance the report doesn't do much good when it describes 3/4 of a place's inhabitants. And of course tracing the online threats is impossible because the people making them are frequently too tech-savvy to allow for that.
quote:
I suspect it's mainly my privilege that makes me not be able to imagine living in the first world and leaving your home etc because you were scared of bullying MRA-type idiots. But I still can't imagine it.
Well, I don't know what it's like to leave my home because of bullying MRA-type bullies. But leaving your home because someone has set you up as a target really, really sucks.
In retrospect I think my big mistake was in trying to scrub any trace of the threats from everywhere so I didn't randomly encounter them when I was having nice peaceful calm day. I should have printed them out and taken them to the police and explained that I was just giving them a heads up in case something further happened. I just have such a mixed history when it comes to the success of my interactions with police and I knew there wasn't necessarily anything they could do about it.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
I find myself feeling the most pity for the ones who accuse other men of "white knighting" (ie defending a woman because they think they are in with a chance of getting laid) because I think, how stunted, how morally and emotionally crippled you must be to be unable to conceive of someone defending another's dignity without an ulterior motive.
I hate that, too. Certainly my friend Brian had nothing to gain when he stood up for the two married women in our gaming group, except the irritation and possible backlash from his male friends.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Dealt with a misogynist jerk (he was a jerk in other ways as well) in a recent World of Warcraft raid. Still not sure of the best way to respond (I don't do the voice thing) whilst hitting the pew-pew-pew keys. (If I am trying to type comments, it means my character just starts STANDING there instead of fighting stuff, or following the group, etc.) I pointed out it was misogynist and such, as did some others, but had I left in protest or something it would not really have helped anyone, including the female players (at least one). I did keep trying to vote to kick the offender, though.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
the outcasts created geek culture...
This is part of what drives me nuts sometimes. I see people playing online video games acting like the same jerkish bullies who thought of all of us who played pen/paper/dice RPGs back in the 80s as geeky nerdy people etc. And I think, "Dude, you wouldn't have this kind of game now if it weren't for the kind of people you're putting down, including the computer geeks from back in the day."
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
All true, Kelly. Especially the thing about being a hero of your own narrative. The same kind of thing happens a lot with non-white characters. They're there, but they're there to be disposable tools to drive the narrative, give comic interludes or whatever. But they can't be real heroes driving their own story.
I also think something that you often see is that women can't be strong for no reason. There was an article a while back (sadly, I can't remember where) that made the point that, even where you have strong women, they're written that they're strong because they were raped / abused when they were younger, and that trauma is what made them strong. Of course, that can happen. But for that to be the standard narrative is pretty shitty. It basically says that women can't be strong in their own right - they have to be abused into it.
Then there's the version that mushes everything together: women are strong because they were abused; but they have to be disposable, and strong women can't possibly be allowed to live--so they must be killed off. E.g. the movies "Spitfire Grill" and "Thelma & Louise". Both films made me furious.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
There's not much I can add here other than to be very very confused by people who declare their opposition to be "Social Justice Warriors".
I'm not a gamer. But I've been hanging with gamers and attempting to teach them basic social skills my entire life.
At this point, calling yourself a "Social Justice Warrior" is approximately equivalent to admitting that you are a sociopath and proud of it.
Did you mean to write "gamer" there? Or have you confused Social Justice Warrior (stereotypically hangs on Tumblr) with /A/nonymous (stereotypically hangs on 4chan)?
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I admit I am so far from the position of people like Kathy Sierra that I have trouble understanding it. If I felt generally unsafe I'd try to be a hard target (physically) and expect that bullies won't really attack someone who will fight back. (If I felt specifically physically unsafe, obviously I'd call the police.)
Unfortunately, these types of bullies will attack someone who will fight back. They think it's funny when you try to fight back like you might win (and I've had martial arts training). Although, IME, frequently it's not about fighting to the finish, but keeping you on your toes afraid to speak out. Unfortunately there's not a lot the police can do when someone you've never seen before punches you with none of the normal warning signs and then runs.
When your very own link suggests that that might not be a trend, it might be time to rethink your position.
Unfortunately the problem is that mass access to the Internet is new. And we're still figuring out what the normal signs are. After all, not everyone from Eliott Rodger's chatroom actually went on to commit mass murder.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
There's not much I can add here other than to be very very confused by people who declare their opposition to be "Social Justice Warriors".
I'm not a gamer. But I've been hanging with gamers and attempting to teach them basic social skills my entire life.
At this point, calling yourself a "Social Justice Warrior" is approximately equivalent to admitting that you are a sociopath and proud of it.
Did you mean to write "gamer" there? Or have you confused Social Justice Warrior (stereotypically hangs on Tumblr) with /A/nonymous (stereotypically hangs on 4chan)?
I meant to write gamer. As in, the kind of person who calls themselves a gamer. As in, the kind of person who you have to pester to take a break from playing World of Warcraft in order to eat dinner with you and, like, talk to a real live human being with real live body language.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Unfortunately, these types of bullies will attack someone who will fight back. They think it's funny when you try to fight back like you might win (and I've had martial arts training). Although, IME, frequently it's not about fighting to the finish, but keeping you on your toes afraid to speak out. Unfortunately there's not a lot the police can do when someone you've never seen before punches you with none of the normal warning signs and then runs.
When your very own link suggests that that might not be a trend, it might be time to rethink your position.
From the link:
quote:
However, other media analysts have cast doubt on the reportedly widespread nature of the game and have labeled the trend, although not the attacks themselves, a myth.
Personally I'm of the belief that the game is a myth, but the random attacks themselves are not.
quote:
Unfortunately the problem is that mass access to the Internet is new. And we're still figuring out what the normal signs are. After all, not everyone from Eliott Rodger's chatroom actually went on to commit mass murder.
I went to a high school where the physics teacher was stabbed trying to break up a fight between two guys. I've been hit so many times that I know what the normal signs of an imminent physical confrontation are.
You're trying to make it sound as if I'm saying things that I'm not saying.
(also, I consider jezebel a hate site and won't click on links that lead there).
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I meant to write gamer. As in, the kind of person who calls themselves a gamer.
I read the rest of your post through the lens that you had written what you meant, sorry.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
(also, I consider jezebel a hate site and won't click on links that lead there).
There are some opinions to which the only response a reasonable person can furnish is to go, "well, that's just stupid."
This is one of them.
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
the outcasts created geek culture...
This is part of what drives me nuts sometimes. I see people playing online video games acting like the same jerkish bullies who thought of all of us who played pen/paper/dice RPGs back in the 80s as geeky nerdy people etc. And I think, "Dude, you wouldn't have this kind of game now if it weren't for the kind of people you're putting down, including the computer geeks from back in the day."
Thing is, right. The idea that outcasts created geek culture is a myth. The original computer geeks weren't mavericks or outlaws in the way we think of them, they were educated middle-class men.
Geek culture. meanwhile is the purview of big business. Comic books started as a mass media for everyone; they became the purview of "geek culture" when it was noticed that they are a demographic you can sell to.
Geeks like mass market media, media that is churned out by big businesses and outlets that wish to ape big businesses.
You know what a geek does? A geek consumes. A geek buys stuff, and watches stuff, and consumes.
[ 13. October 2014, 12:49: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
You know what a geek does? A geek consumes. A geek buys stuff, and watches stuff, and consumes.
Geeks are also behind the open source movement. Geeks are largely responsible for Wikipedia. Geeks do pretty well all the modding of existing games and adaptations to make old games run on new machines. Geekiness is about focus, the pre-occupation with certain topics and areas of interest. The interests are there regardless of wealth, but pursuing ones obsessions (in any field) usually requires some disposable income. The making of the Lord of the Rings film trilogy pretty much demonstrates what geeks tend to be like in my experience - they're not people who will do a job they hate to make lots of money, they're people who will work all hours in awful conditions on a job they love even if it pays them peanuts.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Thing is, right. The idea that outcasts created geek culture is a myth. The original computer geeks weren't mavericks or outlaws in the way we think of them, they were educated middle-class men.
At this point I really should mention Ada Lovelace and Admiral Grace Hopper. (I know it's tangental to the point that you were making - but it's something that shouldn't be forgotten especially while on the subject of Gamergate).
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
( a tangentsl thank you, Justinian-- without those two ladies, we would't even have computers as we know them. Smoke that, 4chan.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Thing is, right. The idea that outcasts created geek culture is a myth. The original computer geeks weren't mavericks or outlaws in the way we think of them, they were educated middle-class men.
At this point I really should mention Ada Lovelace and Admiral Grace Hopper. (I know it's tangental to the point that you were making - but it's something that shouldn't be forgotten especially while on the subject of Gamergate).
Awesome point. Although it's arguable that they invented "geek culture" ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
But yeah. Ada Lovelace, guys. Hell yes.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
On my own relationship with geek culture, I appreciate that my experience of it has been profoundly negative. But while that colours my view, I don't think it affects the main point.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
On my own relationship with geek culture, I appreciate that my experience of it has been profoundly negative. But while that colours my view, I don't think it affects the main point.
I'm not quite sure about your main point, Wood - is it that this whole area is a symptom of derelict consumerist culture? Debatable but - OK.
Or is it that "geek culture" is that thing? I'm pretty sure that these people may well use that term that way. But why do we have to? "Geek" has a different valence in common parlance and more generally refers to people able to demonstrate a high level of knowledge in a certain area. Confusion between these two understandings isn't going to help, especially as it's going to play to the meme that specialist work is for the boys. So I'd want to reject that terminology.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
(also, I consider jezebel a hate site and won't click on links that lead there).
There are some opinions to which the only response a reasonable person can furnish is to go, "well, that's just stupid."
This is one of them.
Yeah, well, I spend a lot of time dealing with the assumptions people make when they look at me and decide what kind of person I am because of the way that I look.
Visiting a site described as "Jezebel is a blog aimed at women's interests, under the tagline "Celebrity, Sex, Fashion for Women. Without Airbrushing."", a site that seems devoted to trying to convince the world that, no, most women really are stupid, superficial, selfish, spoiled sluts is not how I like to spend my free time.
quote:
Thing is, right. The idea that outcasts created geek culture is a myth.
Not really, at least not in the US where the term seems to have originated from geek shows.
quote:
The original computer geeks weren't mavericks or outlaws in the way we think of them, they were educated middle-class men.
And in the US original computer geeks would be more likely to be referred to as nerds, although there's certainly some overlap in the current geek/nerd culture and terminology usage.
quote:
Geek culture. meanwhile is the purview of big business. Comic books started as a mass media for everyone; they became the purview of "geek culture" when it was noticed that they are a demographic you can sell to.
Geeks like mass market media, media that is churned out by big businesses and outlets that wish to ape big businesses.
You know what a geek does? A geek consumes. A geek buys stuff, and watches stuff, and consumes.
And maybe it's just because the Geek Squad is so big over here, but I wouldn't say that. Middle class Americans consume, middle class American culture is all about conspicuous over-consumption. Here Geeks tinker and know how to fix computers and many other mechanical devices. Geeks are the ones who collect people's old iPhones because they aren't the latest versions and sell the parts. Geeks are who you go to when you need a part for your relatively ancient computer because you can't afford a new one right now because they might be able to help you.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Awesome point. Although it's arguable that they invented "geek culture"
It has been argued
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
FWIW Jezebel is very poorly regarded by many feminists, myself included.
SJW is mostly used negatively against intersectional feminists, in my experience (I'm not a gamer although I have been in geek-orientated fandoms which have had some similar though not as serious issues). While I wouldn't label myself as a Social Justice Warrior, I wouldn't be insulted if someone called me that. There are worse things to be a warrior for. But then I'm a leftist/Marxist feminist so I am on the more radical end of feminism* anyway, so I've been called much worse things!
*'Radical feminism' tends to be associated with a particularly gender-essentialist and transphobic form of feminism, so I don't identify as a radical feminist to distance myself from that. However, I am not a liberal feminist.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Comic books started as a mass media for everyone; they became the purview of "geek culture" when it was noticed that they are a demographic you can sell to.
Geeks like mass market media, media that is churned out by big businesses and outlets that wish to ape big businesses.
I definitely see this and it makes me very sad.
I think this is why we're having "edgy" Superman films where he snaps necks. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
I think Marvel is doing much better right now than DC partly because DC seems to be much more--or much more overtly--focusing on trying to aim for this one demographic group and mindset (and not a very nice one--it's not just that it's mainly straight white males of a certain age, but the sense that it's for a certain negative mindset within that group which is the kind of attitude we've been discussing here), rather than telling good stories for everyone.
I think they may be improving very recently, though I'm sort of holding my breath, but this is the kind of negative thing I'm talking about. Lots of classic heroes made "cooler" by becoming more edgy and violent and to me more, um, jerkish and annoying.
Summed up also by this comic strip.
[ 14. October 2014, 02:37: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I'm glad to see a shout out to Love and Rockets up there, because yeah, if you want to see female characters that defy pigeonholing....
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Middle class Americans consume, middle class American culture is all about conspicuous over-consumption. Here Geeks tinker and know how to fix computers and many other mechanical devices.
I think the term 'geek culture' has come to cover so many things that it is largely meaningless.
Not to mention people who reason in reverse ("geeks are socially awkward, I'm socially awkward, therefore I'm a geek") largely ISTM because they are trying to find a way of exculpating bad behaviour.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I dunno; all the geeks I know are right-on lefties. But YMMV, of course.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
This issue managed to get itself a slot on BBC World Service business news this morning. I heard the beginning, but then fell asleep... normal for hearing something interesting at the time of day it was, though.
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Alicïa
Shipmate
# 7668
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Posted
Yeah I woke in the early hours from a fever induced sleep to hear about this on the World Service via Radio 4. It was a good discussion as I kind of sleepily recall... note to self and everyone else on this thread. It is most likely on iPlayer.
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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness
Posts: 884 | From: Where the Art is. | Registered: Jun 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I dunno; all the geeks I know are right-on lefties. But YMMV, of course.
I know a fair few - usually younger or from the US - who are some variant of glibertarian or conservative.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alicïa:
Yeah I woke in the early hours from a fever induced sleep to hear about this on the World Service via Radio 4. It was a good discussion as I kind of sleepily recall... note to self and everyone else on this thread. It is most likely on iPlayer.
Business Matters
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I dunno; all the geeks I know are right-on lefties. But YMMV, of course.
Most of the female ones IME but not the male ones. Certainly the younger male ones tend to be centrist at best.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I dunno; all the geeks I know are right-on lefties. But YMMV, of course.
Most of the female ones IME but not the male ones. Certainly the younger male ones tend to be centrist at best.
Weird. I was thinking of male geeks. Mind, they're mostly late 20s on.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I dunno; all the geeks I know are right-on lefties. But YMMV, of course.
Most of the female ones IME but not the male ones. Certainly the younger male ones tend to be centrist at best.
Anarchism of some form is fairly common, but the geeks I know are liberal on social issues, tending socialist economically, tending towards atheism or neopaganism for the most part on religion.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
Pomona, Karl, how old are the geeks you both know? Most of the undergrads I remember (and used to be) skew right wing in the "I can do it, why can't everyone? The biggest problem is lack of opportunity" naivety. Most of the ones out in the real world tend to skew left in a "This is a system. It is broken. How can we fix it? Because everyone should have equality of opportunity, damnit." With a few not getting over Atlas Shrugged.
And I've met very few geeks who weren't extremely socially liberal. Those that weren't were also fundamentalist Christians.
[ 14. October 2014, 16:30: Message edited by: Justinian ]
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Pomona, Karl, how old are the geeks you both know? Most of the undergrads I remember (and used to be) skew right wing in the "I can do it, why can't everyone? The biggest problem is lack of opportunity" naivety. Most of the ones out in the real world tend to skew left in a "This is a system. It is broken. How can we fix it? Because everyone should have equality of opportunity, damnit." With a few not getting over Atlas Shrugged.
And I've met very few geeks who weren't extremely socially liberal. Those that weren't were also fundamentalist Christians.
The majority are women under 30. The men are fewer in number but go up to middle age - there are a few that are more liberal but the rest are conservative both in their Christianity and their politics.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Hopefully the lower primates concerned are too stupid not to be traced and charged with whatever fits - breach of that amendment about free speech?
Meanwhile, last night's Business Matters had a followup interview with Brianna Wu about the way she had to evacuate her family from their home.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Pomona, Karl, how old are the geeks you both know? Most of the undergrads I remember (and used to be) skew right wing in the "I can do it, why can't everyone? The biggest problem is lack of opportunity" naivety. Most of the ones out in the real world tend to skew left in a "This is a system. It is broken. How can we fix it? Because everyone should have equality of opportunity, damnit." With a few not getting over Atlas Shrugged.
My own experience has been similar especially amongst generation Y and millennials. With a few running towards the neoreactionary extreme:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/01/occupying-the-throne-justine-tunney-neoreactionaries-and-the-new-1-percent.h tml
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Pomona, Karl, how old are the geeks you both know? Most of the undergrads I remember (and used to be) skew right wing in the "I can do it, why can't everyone? The biggest problem is lack of opportunity" naivety. Most of the ones out in the real world tend to skew left in a "This is a system. It is broken. How can we fix it? Because everyone should have equality of opportunity, damnit." With a few not getting over Atlas Shrugged.
And I've met very few geeks who weren't extremely socially liberal. Those that weren't were also fundamentalist Christians.
The majority are women under 30. The men are fewer in number but go up to middle age - there are a few that are more liberal but the rest are conservative both in their Christianity and their politics.
Ah, right. Confounding factor. Conservative Christianity. The sort of geeks who are attracted to conservative Christianity tend to be a specific subset and yes, they do skew politically conservative.
Edit: The neoreactionary extreme is part of the group that didn't get over Atlas Shrugged.
[ 15. October 2014, 13:34: Message edited by: Justinian ]
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
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