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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: #Gamergate, identity politics and the anti-feminist backlash
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
I assume people have seen the latest? A threat of a mass shooting if Anita Sarkeesian speaks. In other words literal terrorism.
The fact that Sarkeesian had to cancel her talk in response to this threat is incredibly discouraging to me. It gives these people so much power. As someone who was a young woman in Canada at the time of the Ecole Polytechnique shootings, the idea that someone would look up to Mark Lepine as a hero is also horrifying.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Where are all these fundamentalist christian geeks hiding?
I used to run a small IT business before retiring, so came into contact with plenty of IT type geeks in the companies we worked for. And before that I have always worked in highly technical roles. In all that time I have never once come across a single fundamentalist christian. Loads of atheists, and a smaller number of mainstream christians. A few muslims. Plenty of couldn't care less. Though of course many I never discussed anything like this with, so I can't be certain about them.
But if they are a significant demographic, it must be in a subsector I've never had any contact with. I can only speak about the UK.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
I assume people have seen the latest? A threat of a mass shooting if Anita Sarkeesian speaks. In other words literal terrorism.
The fact that Sarkeesian had to cancel her talk in response to this threat is incredibly discouraging to me. It gives these people so much power. As someone who was a young woman in Canada at the time of the Ecole Polytechnique shootings, the idea that someone would look up to Mark Lepine as a hero is also horrifying.
I would have cancelled in that situation.
In Utah apparently it's illegal to prevent people taking guns into a public building. So there would be absolutely nothing stopping that individual carrying out the threat, if they wanted to and weren't just bluffing. If I were Sarkeesian, I wouldn't want to risk it.
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I wouldn't describe the conservative Christian geeks I know as fundamentalist at all, they're all mainstream evangelicals and not as conservative as their US counterparts. And not all of them would identify as conservative politically.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
What a pity they did not set it up for her to speak from a remote location.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I wouldn't describe the conservative Christian geeks I know as fundamentalist at all, they're all mainstream evangelicals and not as conservative as their US counterparts. And not all of them would identify as conservative politically.
Fair enough, Pomona.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
I assume people have seen the latest? A threat of a mass shooting if Anita Sarkeesian speaks. In other words literal terrorism.
The fact that Sarkeesian had to cancel her talk in response to this threat is incredibly discouraging to me. It gives these people so much power. As someone who was a young woman in Canada at the time of the Ecole Polytechnique shootings, the idea that someone would look up to Mark Lepine as a hero is also horrifying.
I would have cancelled in that situation.
In Utah apparently it's illegal to prevent people taking guns into a public building. So there would be absolutely nothing stopping that individual carrying out the threat, if they wanted to and weren't just bluffing. If I were Sarkeesian, I wouldn't want to risk it.
I didn't mean to imply that I blamed Sarkeesian at all for cancelling -- she did the right thing, as she would have been putting not only herself but others at risk to continue. The ridiculousness of the fact that the university couldn't provide adequate security is what makes this sick. A culture in which people cannot be stopped from bringing weapons into a public place gives evil people the power to silence those who disagree with them.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
And I'm not sure having her speak from a remote location would have helped, since the author of the threat clearly stated that he would attack other women on campus if the Sarkeesian talk went ahead -- which he could have done whether she was physically present or not.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
There was a piece on the one o'clock current affairs programme on BBC Radio 4 which might indicate that there is more going on than just little boys objecting to gurlies interfering with their game. Apparently, game play can now be a spectator sport, with very big money being made by winners. As in millions of whatever currency. In one evening.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
I guess I am a "sort of gamer" but mostly retired and anyhow probably too old (school) to count as part of today's "gamer culture". I used to compete in the German national league for LMCTF Quake 2 with a team, when I still had super-fast reflexes, and was on the programming team for a DikuMUD (Duris, a Sojourn derivative, if anyone cares...).
Like most (sort of) gamers, I care neither about gamergate nor about their opponents, much. I often played LMCTF as a woman, because the female skin had a smaller visual footprint (made you harder to hit). Actual gamers are in my experience interested in beating the game, or even better, other people playing the same game. That's it. All the rest is fluff that gets into the way of performance. At millisecond twitch times, nobody is a chauvinist.
Other than that, I would simply point out that games are essentially escapist phantasies. Given that the customers are still mostly male, you get your scantily clad "trophy women" with big boobs in some games. But frankly, it's neither that common nor in fact that important. It's more a measure of gaming success than anything else. As for why there's fewer female heroes in games (though that really isn't true so much anymore): google "her side of the hills" (NSFW!) and ask yourself why you don't see that point of view much in porn. Same reason: identification with character.
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
There was a piece on the one o'clock current affairs programme on BBC Radio 4 which might indicate that there is more going on than just little boys objecting to gurlies interfering with their game. Apparently, game play can now be a spectator sport, with very big money being made by winners. As in millions of whatever currency. In one evening.
I'm watching roughly 10 times more gaming broadcasts than regular TV. Mostly YouTube "Let's Plays" of strategy games (Europa Universalis IV, Crusader Kings 2, Total War: Rome II, Civilisation V, ...) these days but also some Twitch TV. I still watch Mindcrack's UHC (a Minecraft "Mad Max" tournament) whenever it is on, and I used to follow EthosLab a lot when Minecraft was new.
In my opinion, these "gaming" related shows are a bit like combining talk radio (you mostly only hear a voice, or sometimes a few) combined with a kind of "amateur sports" feel and modern, often quite spectacular, high tech computer visuals. Beats regular TV for me most of the time, I can't watch the crap on there but for the news and the occasional movie / nature documentary...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Other than that, I would simply point out that games are essentially escapist phantasies. Given that the customers are still mostly male, you get your scantily clad "trophy women" with big boobs in some games.
I've always thought this bit of justification was somewhat bizarre. It seems to take the male skew of the gamer population not as evidence of a huge, untapped market or the result of focused hostility towards women by gamers, but rather as some kind of fundamental underlying principle of the universe, like gravity.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Croesos wrote: quote:
I've always thought this bit of justification was somewhat bizarre. It seems to take the male skew of the gamer population not as evidence of a huge, untapped market or the result of focused hostility towards women by gamers, but rather as some kind of fundamental underlying principle of the universe, like gravity.
What male skew of the gamer population?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I've always thought this bit of justification was somewhat bizarre. It seems to take the male skew of the gamer population not as evidence of a huge, untapped market or the result of focused hostility towards women by gamers, but rather as some kind of fundamental underlying principle of the universe, like gravity.
I've made a statement about the current reality, that's all. If you can tap this huge market, go right ahead. Notch just made 2.5 billion dollars selling the premier family-friendly game on the market - Minecraft, computational lego - to Microsoft. Perhaps you can find the formula that will make women all of the world turn to gaming for entertainment. Go right ahead, I won't stop you. In fact, put your idea on Kickstarter and I will likely put some money behind it.
What is bizarre though is the idea that the various software studios have systematically foregone literally billions of dollars out of "focused hostility towards women", or indeed that there is any such thing among gamers at large. There isn't. Serious gamers are at the moment still for the most part college-age males, usually at university or in their early career, and their attitude to women does not particularly differ from that of others in those groups. At least that's my experience (which is perhaps by now outdated, who knows?).
There are probably more men playing pool billiards than women as well. I'm not sure that that tells us anything deep about anything, really.
[ 17. October 2014, 15:28: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
What male skew of the gamer population?
The one that actually exists when we talk about FPS type games and the like (which are the ones being complained about for objectifying women), rather than some kind of hypothetical built on a rather suspect statistic.
Which incidentally - upthread - is why I'm generally against arguments of the form of 'women are over X% of gamers .. therefore', both for the reasons Ingo alludes to, and because virtue should be its own reward and people should do the right thing because it is the right thing to do.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What is bizarre though is the idea that the various software studios have systematically foregone literally billions of dollars out of "focused hostility towards women", or indeed that there is any such thing among gamers at large. There isn't.
Since #Gamergate seems to be a coordinated campaign of harassment and intimidation aimed at women in gaming, and they certainly seem to be "at large" enough to shut down public events and successfully pressure large corporations, I'm not sure what you're basing that last assertion on.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Since #Gamergate seems to be a coordinated campaign of harassment and intimidation aimed at women in gaming, and they certainly seem to be "at large" enough to shut down public events and successfully pressure large corporations, I'm not sure what you're basing that last assertion on.
That's like taking Fred Phelps to represent Christianity, Islamic State to represent Islam, Dawkins representing atheism, or what have you. The gaming industry is massive, they make more money than Hollywood. Steam, the largest of the PC download platforms, has 65 million users - and a lot of them would be accurately characterised as "gamers". Twitch TV has 45 million viewers, and practically all can be considered as gamers (or they wouldn't be watching...).
These are apparently some gamers doing nasty things. By all means, condemn them for that, but don't pretend that they are representative or a majority. That they apparently have caused a lot of damage (to some people at least) does not tell us anything about their size either, but simply about their dedication and the reach of modern technology (and about the cowardice and immoral opportunism of business, perhaps, but is there anything new about that?). We are hardly at a loss to come up with examples how a few people can hurt many, are we now?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
What male skew of the gamer population?
The one that actually exists when we talk about FPS type games and the like (which are the ones being complained about for objectifying women), rather than some kind of hypothetical built on a rather suspect statistic.
Which incidentally - upthread - is why I'm generally against arguments of the form of 'women are over X% of gamers .. therefore', both for the reasons Ingo alludes to, and because virtue should be its own reward and people should do the right thing because it is the right thing to do.
Well - this is precisely the sort of discussion that needs to be had, in identifying the demographic we are talking about, which is why I queried this unexamined assumption.
Though maybe I need to press you on why you see the discussion about "some kind of hypothetical built on a rather suspect statistic." Why is it a suspect statistic? What hypothetical? As somebody outside the whole gaming thing, ISTM that "a gamer is someone who plays games" (using some sort of intelligent device). The whole argument from the gamergate fraternity* is that gaming is being subverted by games written by or for women. If there's any hypothetical involved, then it's the artificial construct that "true gaming" involves the genres that include all this stupid misogynist crap. And you (and IngoB - and by implication Croesos) - seem to accept that. I reject it. It's part of the problem. It's a problem because it disenfranches everyone who likes other game types.
I understand why IngoB might say such a thing if he's been away from it for a time. It really did used to be a much more male thing. But even in the earliest days, there were far more genres than the FPS and adjunct categories that true gamers now declare to be those at risk.
I'm sure nobody (here) is going to disagree with the desire that people should do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. We can all agree on that. That's not going to stop anyone from making death, rape, etc. threats however.
* yes, I realise there truly is a genuine issue about journalism in there somewhere. It's long been drowned out by all this bad behaviour concern.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Intel thinks that the gamersgate guys are bigger than those opposed to them or it would have restored its advertising. (Croesus's third article)
And they are quite possibly right. However, the by far biggest group would be the "huh? what? where?" group, followed with a considerable distance by the "who gives a shit" group, after which presumably comes the "it's all lulz" group. Just because one group is bigger than another (and perhaps more importantly for Intel, more "weaponised" and more threatening to their bottom line) doesn't mean that it is particularly big.
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I understand why IngoB might say such a thing if he's been away from it for a time. It really did used to be a much more male thing.
It sure as heck was. I used to go to LAN parties that were a few hundred strong, and they were practically all male. Anyway, here are some of the latest stats. Apparently 59% of Americans play video games. And 48% of them are women. So things clearly have changed. (Still, I bet female participation remains uneven across platforms and game types.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
The whole argument from the gamergate fraternity* is that gaming is being subverted by games written by or for women. If there's any hypothetical involved, then it's the artificial construct that "true gaming" involves the genres that include all this stupid misogynist crap. And you (and IngoB - and by implication Croesos) - seem to accept that.
No, at least not 'true gaming' in the sense you want it to mean above.
There are different market segments across the different platforms. One of the biggest is still the the one that is traditionally male dominated and includes the various FPS/MMOs etc which contain the bulk of the stereotypes that people are complaining about.
quote:
I'm sure nobody (here) is going to disagree with the desire that people should do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. We can all agree on that. That's not going to stop anyone from making death, rape, etc. threats however.
I was referring to the end of misogynistic stereotypes, rather than the extremes above - which are the perpetrated by a small minority of people. Simply put, don't expect economics to lead you to the former (which seems to be the underlying thrust of the use of the 52% statistic).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
IngoB, agreed. However, if Fred Phelps and his ilk were more numerous than those who objected to him, I would give up on Christianity.
Really? I mean, yes, if something is overrun by badness, then the argument that the badness has nothing to do with its essence starts to wear thin. At the very least that gives pause for thought. But if there were 2% Fred Phelpses and 1% Anti Fred Phelpses and 97% Who the Fuck is Fred Phelpses, then that wouldn't make me give up Christianity... I think you mean more something like "a majority could be made to object to Fred Phelps by being informed properly about him"?
That's fair enough. For example, I just re-watched Damsel in Distress: Part 1 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games (I actually had seen this before, as I now remember), and sure, she has a point. Not that I would likely agree with all her opinions, or for that matter with the typical "solution" of just making women into differently shaped men in terms of game play. But yes, one certainly can do better than that.
(I've just gone mentally through the games I've played most across the years. Damsels did not particularly feature. Perhaps because I was never a big fan of platformers...)
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
(By the way, the second statement you quote as mine was Honest Ron Bacardi's.)
Sorry, copy fail.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
(Still, I bet female participation remains uneven across platforms and game types.)
This is anecdata, I know, but based on what I have seen young women playing, I think you'd be stunned at what games they get up to. I sure am.All of my step-nieces-- including the seven-year-old, not that I approve-- are absolute monsters at Walking Dead and Call of Duty. They play what their brothers play, to keep up with them.
And I played what my boyfriend/ husband played. And at least two generations have now evolved with the potential of mom and dad gamers. Which means this is probably their first generation of girls that grew up gaming-- and who don't necessarily start because their male acquaintances drag them into it.
[ 18. October 2014, 03:29: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Well, the point I've been trying to get across is that as someone who has played games intensely I don't really care whether my opponent, or co-op partner, has boobs or not. Indeed, I don't really care whether he/she/it has virtual boobs or not. I care whether they perform in terms of the game mechanics and purposes. It's something that carries over from other games, tabletop, card, and the like. If you actually like playing the game, a lot, then that sort of anonymises the player while you are playing.
I agree that games overall still have male-heavy orientations, and that some of these stories are pretty shit as far as women are concerned. I would disagree that this is some deep-rooted sign of misogyny though. Rather, most game stories simply are shit, most games are the equivalent of pulp fiction. And pulp fiction written by and for men tends to not be particularly inspiring for women. Pulp fiction written by and for women is not particularly inspiring for men either though. And if women would start to play a big role in where games are going (from the consumer side, but perhaps even more importantly, from the creator side), then I bet you that we would get quite a bit of female oriented pulp stories in games as well.
Another problem is quite simply that gaming boils down to 1) rapid hand-eye coordination, 2) puzzle solving, or 3) strategic planning and organisation. In some sense, stories need to get written around this task load, to motivate the challenges to the player. And that pretty much means that story telling will remain stunted. To give an example, you first have the first person shooter, you second have the story that "explains" why you shoot everything in sight. Rather obviously, that story is going to be crap in most cases. Because well-developed characters do not shoot everything in sight.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
OK. Makes sense.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Intel thinks that the gamersgate guys are bigger than those opposed to them or it would have restored its advertising. (Croesus's third article)
And they are quite possibly right. However, the by far biggest group would be the "huh? what? where?" group, followed with a considerable distance by the "who gives a shit" group, after which presumably comes the "it's all lulz" group. Just because one group is bigger than another (and perhaps more importantly for Intel, more "weaponised" and more threatening to their bottom line) doesn't mean that it is particularly big.
This analysis only makes sense if Intel thinks the "huh? what? where?" and "who gives a shit" groups are unlikely to be influenced by their advertising. By pulling their ads, they're effectively giving up on reaching them via advertising, which seems a big step to take for the approval of a truly marginal segment, as you speculate.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
And if women would start to play a big role in where games are going (from the consumer side, but perhaps even more importantly, from the creator side), then I bet you that we would get quite a bit of female oriented pulp stories in games as well.
Given the level of harassment, intimidation, and threats the seem to go along with being a woman working on the creator side of games (e.g. Zoe Quinn), this seems like a particularly problematic proposal.
[ 18. October 2014, 05:33: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
This analysis only makes sense if Intel thinks the "huh? what? where?" and "who gives a shit" groups are unlikely to be influenced by their advertising. By pulling their ads, they're effectively giving up on reaching them via advertising, which seems a big step to take for the approval of a truly marginal segment, as you speculate.
That's correct, and they of course did get away with it. If we were not discussing this specific subject, who on SoF would have known about it? It's not like the cancelled a major ad campaigning in the New York Times, or anything like that. Somebody decided (wrongly, in my opinion, just to make this clear) that it wasn't worth the bother. And we have no reason to believe that the decision maker was not under the same impression as many people here, namely that he who shouts the loudest speaks for the most. Yes, maybe someone into tech marketing should know their target group better, but I for one wouldn't bet on it. This may well have been a managerial decision by some MBA person, ask Dilbert about that. Finally, pulling an ad is actually a pretty soft move. If nobody makes noise about it, then few people will notice. Of course, an intelligent person might have figured out that somebody would be making noise about this one. But you can ask Dilbert about intelligence in tech management, too.
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Given the level of harassment, intimidation, and threats the seem to go along with being a woman working on the creator side of games (e.g. Zoe Quinn), this seems like a particularly problematic proposal.
Your statement pretends that that sort of treatment is "normal". Do you have any evidence for this? Here are some comments by another female game developer on the whole issue, including the explicit statement that at least in the indie software world she has never encountered any sexism directed at her, rather the opposite. I would expect that at major commercial software studios, if they heap a truckload of men into one work environment with hardly a woman in sight (which is still more likely than not, I suppose), then you will get at least some of the unthinking sexism that that tends to produce. But that could be said for any similar situation, indeed, that's why I am expecting it. That's a far cry form saying that game software development just is sexist.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
By pulling their ads, they're effectively giving up on reaching them via advertising, which seems a big step to take for the approval of a truly marginal segment, as you speculate.
Or some MBA somewhere has decided that even appearing to be associated with 'controversy' is a lose/lose situation as far as Intel is concerned. It wouldn't be the first time that some company has pulled out of being associated with a fairly clear cut situation because they felt the brand might be damaged by being dragged into something.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
... you can ask Dilbert ...
A side note, but I no longer read that comic, for this reason.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Actual gamers are in my experience interested in beating the game, or even better, other people playing the same game. That's it. All the rest is fluff that gets into the way of performance. At millisecond twitch times, nobody is a chauvinist.
Other than that, I would simply point out that games are essentially escapist phantasies. Given that the customers are still mostly male, you get your scantily clad "trophy women" with big boobs in some games. But frankly, it's neither that common nor in fact that important. It's more a measure of gaming success than anything else. As for why there's fewer female heroes in games (though that really isn't true so much anymore): google "her side of the hills" (NSFW!) and ask yourself why you don't see that point of view much in porn. Same reason: identification with character.
I can't believe how disappointed I am in this post.
Simply, no. Just no.
Yes, there are a few bad apples, but the proverb doesn't go "a few bad apples means everyone else is fine."
The majority of gamers not caring about this #gamergate nonsense (or even knowing about it and simply being better than that) is not a reason not to care about it.
And the fact that this vocal and toxic minority have made a big deal about wishing harm on someone like Anita Sarkeesian for daring to make YouTube videos that saying nothing other than women are often represented harmfully in video games, here are a few ways, suggests a nerve of some sort has been hit.
Much of this gamer culture has become a thing in the last decade, and when you get the young men who are supporting a movement that is founded by men who threaten rape and murder calling their victims "bullies" in the same breath and doing so in vast numbers, you have to think of other minority movements in history that gained traction in the same way.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I can't help seeing correlations between this western manifestation of gynophobia and the attitudes of Boko Haram, IS, and the Taliban. (And even that preacher mentioned elsewhere who delivered a tirade based on 1 Peter 3.)
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I can't help seeing correlations between this western manifestation of gynophobia and the attitudes of Boko Haram, IS, and the Taliban. (And even that preacher mentioned elsewhere who delivered a tirade based on 1 Peter 3.)
I actually think that Boko Haram isn't the same thing, coming from an anti-western basis, while the #gg types come from a firmly western traditional position, although they doubtless wouldn't see it that way. It amounts to the same thing, I guess.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
And the fact that this vocal and toxic minority have made a big deal about wishing harm on someone like Anita Sarkeesian for daring to make YouTube videos that saying nothing other than women are often represented harmfully in video games, here are a few ways, suggests a nerve of some sort has been hit.
Much of this gamer culture has become a thing in the last decade, and when you get the young men who are supporting a movement that is founded by men who threaten rape and murder calling their victims "bullies" in the same breath and doing so in vast numbers, you have to think of other minority movements in history that gained traction in the same way.
I agree that a nerve has been hit.
However, a lot of our cultural commentary is telling us that:
quote:
The reasoning behind the targeting of these women is too batshit to unspool here—if you’re interested in falling down the rabbit hole, Deadspin has a decent primer on “Gamergate”—but what’s clear is that some people just don’t like seeing women play, design, and discuss video games, and seek to punish them with “virtual” violence.
IME that's likely to be the furthest thing from true - I can remember back to the days when gamers would complain about their parties being sausage fests because they spent all their free time playing Doom or whatever and they simply had almost nothing to talk to girls about because they didn't share any interests but they really really wanted girls to come to their parties.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I can remember back to the days when gamers would complain about their parties being sausage fests because they spent all their free time playing Doom or whatever and they simply had almost nothing to talk to girls about because they didn't share any interests but they really really wanted girls to come to their parties.
No, that's simply stupidity. Which is fine when you're a kid, but it's assumed that by the time you reach the age of majority, you'll have attained something of a clue, and keep on advancing from there until you become a fully rounded human being.
Being in 'arrested development' isn't an attractive trait to women, so I'm told.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
No, that's simply stupidity. Which is fine when you're a kid, but it's assumed that by the time you reach the age of majority, you'll have attained something of a clue, and keep on advancing from there until you become a fully rounded human being.
Being in 'arrested development' isn't an attractive trait to women, so I'm told.
Yes, but the anonymity of the truly hateful behavior together with stories like this make me wonder if that isn't exactly what we're dealing with here. In the same way that most of the unacceptable street harassment I get comes from 14-17 year-old boys trying to be funny/ show off in front of their friends/ whatever, not from my peer group.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I can't help seeing correlations between this western manifestation of gynophobia and the attitudes of Boko Haram, IS, and the Taliban. (And even that preacher mentioned elsewhere who delivered a tirade based on 1 Peter 3.)
I actually think that Boko Haram isn't the same thing, coming from an anti-western basis, while the #gg types come from a firmly western traditional position, although they doubtless wouldn't see it that way. It amounts to the same thing, I guess.
It's the attitude to women part of it that I was comparing - and the age group involved. What is stated as the political position driving the groups is one layer, the violence against women another. I would add the Lord's Resistance Army to the list - of one group of which their commander said, excusing their raping, "they are only human".
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
IME that's likely to be the furthest thing from true - I can remember back to the days when gamers would complain about their parties being sausage fests because they spent all their free time playing Doom or whatever and they simply had almost nothing to talk to girls about because they didn't share any interests but they really really wanted girls to come to their parties.
Now you see, I remember, long ago, like 25 years ago, being that guy, once. For me it was DnD rather than video games but it was the same experience.
And here's the basic problem that those boys who yearned for girls to come to the party - the same guys who are doing #gg now: when girls started to come to the nerdy boys' parties en masse, they came on their terms and with their perspectives. They did not turn into guys, and did not see themselves as the guys saw them. They came as actual people.
These guys are all "why don't they understand?" and "why do they hate us?" but that betrays a failing of knowledge in the very basic foundations of human interaction.
I've often thought that Western society would be a better place if secondary schools would teach compulsory courses in basic social skills. There is a reason why they are called social skills. The clue is in the name.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Being in 'arrested development' isn't an attractive trait to women, so I'm told.
Or indeed anyone.
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I can't help seeing correlations between this western manifestation of gynophobia and the attitudes of Boko Haram, IS, and the Taliban. (And even that preacher mentioned elsewhere who delivered a tirade based on 1 Peter 3.)
I actually think that Boko Haram isn't the same thing, coming from an anti-western basis, while the #gg types come from a firmly western traditional position, although they doubtless wouldn't see it that way. It amounts to the same thing, I guess.
It's the attitude to women part of it that I was comparing - and the age group involved. What is stated as the political position driving the groups is one layer, the violence against women another. I would add the Lord's Resistance Army to the list - of one group of which their commander said, excusing their raping, "they are only human".
It's a fair point. And certainly you get what amounts to people literally treating women as another, inferior species, dehumanising them.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Yes, but the anonymity of the truly hateful behavior together with stories like this make me wonder if that isn't exactly what we're dealing with here.
I moved away from New Hampshire sixteen years ago. While I lived there, I used to go over to Keene to the pumpkin festival. The attraction was thousands of pumpkins carved with great creativity.
From what I know of Keene, I am ready to bet that very few of the rioters were locals. The linked article spoke of Keene State College students and outside agitators. I feel very sad for the local people, that their enjoyable and creative festival has been trashed.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Yes, there are a few bad apples, but the proverb doesn't go "a few bad apples means everyone else is fine."
"There are idiots on the internet" is structurally the same as "there are barbarians at the gate." But the imminent threat level to civilisation is in fact rather different. On a relaxed definition ("playing computer games regularly"), there are several hundred million gamers out there. Even if you count only the "hardcore" by some definition, there will be tens of millions. We can hence roughly compare this to the entire population of the USA, plus say those among them that would call themselves particularly patriotic. And we find that among the entire population of the USA, or the subpopulation of avowed US patriots, there are a few thousand aggressive misogynists. Wow. The world stopped right there in shock, horror and disbelief...
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Does this mean that it is OK for those people to be aggressive misogynists? Of course not! But one really needs to keep some perspective.
No, that's right. Instead we must post on a bulletin board running on ancient software, which is sort of about Christianity, and whose member are on average 50+ years old and think playing Minesweeper on a big grid is hardcore gaming. Because that will really make a difference.
Oh wait, I forgot. This is actually about that time when you got annoyed writing rule books for geeks. And now you have proof positive that they are as bad as you felt about your job. And you need people affirming your outrage. Because reasons.
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
The majority of gamers not caring about this #gamergate nonsense (or even knowing about it and simply being better than that) is not a reason not to care about it.
Actually, it pretty much is just that. And if one doesn't feed the trolls, they do go away eventually. Seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
And the fact that this vocal and toxic minority have made a big deal about wishing harm on someone like Anita Sarkeesian for daring to make YouTube videos that saying nothing other than women are often represented harmfully in video games, here are a few ways, suggests a nerve of some sort has been hit.
Let's see. Feminist reviews a few dozen super-popular games, guaranteeing that near anybody with a pulse and a gaming rig has played several of them. And she calls these games out for being horribly misogynist. Knee-jerk reactions of "Who are you calling misogynist, bitch?" ensue at some twitter hashtag, where those with poor impulse control join those who couldn't care less about games but really do hate women.
Yes, it is a complete mystery how this could possibly happen. I will stick to my rocket science, it clearly would require a genius to figure this one out.
Oh, by the way, if you actually bothered watching Sarkeesian's videos, you would have noticed that she did figure this one out in advance. Perhaps because she is smart, perhaps because she has done this sort of thing before and managed to turn hindsight into foresight. But she is actually putting a relevant disclaimers in front of every video.
It wasn't enough. Perhaps because one or two calm and reasonable sentences do not provide the emotional outreach that would have been needed. But we probably need another genius to figure that one out as well... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Much of this gamer culture has become a thing in the last decade, and when you get the young men who are supporting a movement that is founded by men who threaten rape and murder calling their victims "bullies" in the same breath and doing so in vast numbers, you have to think of other minority movements in history that gained traction in the same way.
A pro tip for analysing rhetoric: if your opponent is starting to make really long sentences that begin with vague assertions and end in offensive ones, then he's probably trying to bury some blatant falsehood in the middle of it all - so as to sneak it past your radar for later deployment. Like say between "doing so" and "you have to" here...
Oh, and here's another one for geniuses to figure out. A bunch of trolls and worrywarts are locked into a fierce online battle about a feminist critique of computer games. What will random young men do that come across it? Of course, they will heroically take a stance for good and justice in a calm and reasonable manner, because it's entirely unheard of that young men would stoke the fire just for the hell of it. (Or for that matter young women. Or anybody, really...)
Anyway, knock yourself out. We all need to find some hill to die on to feel alive.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Oh wait, I forgot. This is actually about that time when you got annoyed writing rule books for geeks. And now you have proof positive that they are as bad as you felt about your job. And you need people affirming your outrage. Because reasons.
Ingo, as much as I respect you, this sort of statement is beneath you.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
To be honest, so is that entire post, actually. But the ad hom, mainly.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
To be honest, so is that entire post, actually. But the ad hom, mainly.
If you stop pissing from great height onto unsuspecting gamers, then I will happily stop calling you out for that. So get a grip, and use it to firmly direct your spray elsewhere...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
To be honest, so is that entire post, actually. But the ad hom, mainly.
If you stop pissing from great height onto unsuspecting gamers, then I will happily stop calling you out for that. So get a grip, and use it to firmly direct your spray elsewhere...
Wood/IngoB
I'm consulting with the other Purg hosts about what sort of hostly guidance is merited, but in the meantime, would you two please kindly refrain from any further personal comments before this escalates any more.
Thanks.
Eliab
Purgatory Host
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
Wood and IngoB - discussing someone's experiences when they have volunteered details about those experiences is allowed, but making the discussion personal isn't. If you want to develop the personal theme, take it to Hell.
Eliab
Purgatory host
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
If you want to develop the personal theme, take it to Hell.
Eliab
Purgatory host
I'll pass, thanks.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
This analysis only makes sense if Intel thinks the "huh? what? where?" and "who gives a shit" groups are unlikely to be influenced by their advertising. By pulling their ads, they're effectively giving up on reaching them via advertising, which seems a big step to take for the approval of a truly marginal segment, as you speculate.
That's correct, and they of course did get away with it. If we were not discussing this specific subject, who on SoF would have known about it? It's not like the cancelled a major ad campaigning in the New York Times, or anything like that. Somebody decided (wrongly, in my opinion, just to make this clear) that it wasn't worth the bother. And we have no reason to believe that the decision maker was not under the same impression as many people here, namely that he who shouts the loudest speaks for the most. Yes, maybe someone into tech marketing should know their target group better, but I for one wouldn't bet on it. This may well have been a managerial decision by some MBA person, ask Dilbert about that. Finally, pulling an ad is actually a pretty soft move. If nobody makes noise about it, then few people will notice. Of course, an intelligent person might have figured out that somebody would be making noise about this one. But you can ask Dilbert about intelligence in tech management, too.
Not that soft of a move. It clearly demonstrated that loud and threatening sexism can be used to successfully "work the refs". Given this has been demonstrated to be a winning strategy, why wouldn't it be attractive to anyone else with an agenda? I'm also a little skeptical that your main evidence that you know the gaming market better than professional game marketers is a syndicated cartoon that's basically been milking the exact same punchline for a quarter century.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Given the level of harassment, intimidation, and threats the seem to go along with being a woman working on the creator side of games (e.g. Zoe Quinn), this seems like a particularly problematic proposal.
Your statement pretends that that sort of treatment is "normal". Do you have any evidence for this?
I'm not sure. Let me turn to the comics page of my local newspaper. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Here are some comments by another female game developer on the whole issue, including the explicit statement that at least in the indie software world she has never encountered any sexism directed at her, rather the opposite.
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Is it that since this one person hasn't encountered sexism and harassment that those things never happen and we should conclude that Sarkeesian and Quinn are making it all up? Or that since this one person hasn't encountered sexism and harassment it's so uncommon that Sarkeesian and Quinn are making a big deal out of nothing and should sit down and shut up?
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I would expect that at major commercial software studios, if they heap a truckload of men into one work environment with hardly a woman in sight (which is still more likely than not, I suppose), then you will get at least some of the unthinking sexism that that tends to produce.But that could be said for any similar situation, indeed, that's why I am expecting it. That's a far cry form saying that game software development just is sexist.
Not a far cry at all. You're saying "here's why you get a lot of sexism in game development, but there's no sexism in game development". ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
The majority of gamers not caring about this #gamergate nonsense (or even knowing about it and simply being better than that) is not a reason not to care about it.
Actually, it pretty much is just that. And if one doesn't feed the trolls, they do go away eventually. Seriously.
"Just ignore the death threats, even if they contain your real-life home address" is very chancy advice to give anyone, especially if based on pop psychology and Dilbert cartoons.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Yes, there are a few bad apples, but the proverb doesn't go "a few bad apples means everyone else is fine."
"There are idiots on the internet" is structurally the same as "there are barbarians at the gate." But the imminent threat level to civilisation is in fact rather different.
<snip>
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
And the fact that this vocal and toxic minority have made a big deal about wishing harm on someone like Anita Sarkeesian for daring to make YouTube videos that saying nothing other than women are often represented harmfully in video games, here are a few ways, suggests a nerve of some sort has been hit.
Let's see. Feminist reviews a few dozen super-popular games, guaranteeing that near anybody with a pulse and a gaming rig has played several of them. And she calls these games out for being horribly misogynist. Knee-jerk reactions of "Who are you calling misogynist, bitch?" ensue at some twitter hashtag, where those with poor impulse control join those who couldn't care less about games but really do hate women.
Yes, it is a complete mystery how this could possibly happen. I will stick to my rocket science, it clearly would require a genius to figure this one out.
<snip>
It wasn't enough. Perhaps because one or two calm and reasonable sentences do not provide the emotional outreach that would have been needed. But we probably need another genius to figure that one out as well...
<snip>
Oh, and here's another one for geniuses to figure out. A bunch of trolls and worrywarts are locked into a fierce online battle about a feminist critique of computer games. What will random young men do that come across it? Of course, they will heroically take a stance for good and justice in a calm and reasonable manner, because it's entirely unheard of that young men would stoke the fire just for the hell of it. (Or for that matter young women. Or anybody, really...)
One of the most striking things to me about this exchange is the degree to which IngoB assumes that harassing, threatening misogyny is both an unalterable, eternal constant in human interactions and, more critically, that anyone calling attention to harassing, threatening misogyny is just some witless crybaby who should have known better.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
One of the most striking things to me about this exchange is ...that anyone calling attention to harassing, threatening misogyny is just some witless crybaby who should have known better.
See, this is a prominent and common shutdown tactic.
I'm not especially bothered by it, being demonstrably neither witless nor a crybaby, but it always disappoints me when I see it, because this particular tactic usually comes from guys who have demonstrated that they absolutely should know better.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Wood, you are misrepresenting the gamer community by pretending that this is a major issue for them, when it simply is not. I have called you out on that. I've tried it reasonably for a while, it didn't work; I tried it more forcefully, it isn't allowed. So far from shutting you up, I will now just let you talk to the void. Because that's what you will end up doing here anyhow. If you had any actual pretensions to make the gamer world better, you would be opening up a sub-reddit, or try to get a campaign of well-known YouTube LetsPlayers going, or support some indie software group making gender-balanced games, or something. You wouldn't vent your spleen in a place that must have one of the lowest gamer-per-participant ratios on the internet.
And I've (re-)watched three of Sarkeesian's videos now. I find them for the most part quite reasonable and informative, certainly food for thought. They don't make me angry. You however do. And why? Because Sarkeesian is in fact not unfairly judging a community I have some sympathy for (perhaps even sort of belong to). She objectively has a point, even if one doesn't buy everything that she is saying. You really don't. You are just badmouthing millions of people over the misdeeds of a few. Give it a rest. Or don't. Whatever.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
I simply don't see why you are taking this so personally.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
I agree though that there is a profound disconnect. I haven't been "called" on anything I've actually said, certainly.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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