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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: New study of NDE's
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
A new study described in "The Independent" October 9, 2014 claims:
quote:
"scientists in the new study said they heard compelling evidence that patients experienced real events for up to three minutes after (their heart stopped)– and could recall them accurately once they had been resuscitated."
Is this anything new?
Interesting discussion follows the article.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
I came across an even more scientifically in depth article recently (albeit from 2012).
Is it new? Dunno. Think the idea that maybe NDE's are not just hallucinations of an oxygen starved brain is perhaps new....?
The fact that NDE's are just hallucinations is not empirically verifiable, just speculation as a possible explanation.
Two of my family members have had NDE's. Heard a lovely story recently from a chap in hospital about one.
I don't think they're hallucinations.
[ 10. October 2014, 11:44: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
I've always thought the skeptic argument 'they are only hallucinations' rather crap.
1) There is not enough time for the brain to produce the chemicals thought to be responsible for patients who have NDE's during cardiac arrest.
2) They are not randomized hallucinations as happen with drugs.
Doesn't surprise me that this study has backed up some of the anecdotal evidence that has stacked up over the years.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
No one knows for sure, so I get to guess too.
Some are real out-of-body experiences or encounters with - but it's "common" for conscious dying people to see and speak to dead relatives or angels or Jesus (for Christians anyway), and not unusual for someone to first learn of a loved one's death by an unexpected "visit." The idea of some cross-over connection at death is broader than NDEs.
Some are hallucinations/dreams. Nothing unusual about dreaming of flying or visiting a friend, etc.
Some are invented for the purpose of selling books. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
The thing that intrigues me is, most are similar in many ways. So what about the ones that are hellish instead of heavenly?
The (anti-Biblical in my opinion) 23 minutes in hell book (discussed in a different thread a month or two ago) was a dream, not a NDE. But are there some who claim NDEs of hell?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
The Southampton study includes a case of the procedures being accurately observed by the "dead" person from a position somewhere in the corner of the room. Interesting implications for anyone who either doesn't believe in spiritual existence OR believes that consciousness is a hardwired emergent property of the physical body. Whichever way - it's interesting.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I think I would like to know if the person who observed procedures was, in life, the sort of person who would know what procedures would be used. And if the detail were greater than that which could be gleaned from TV.
Just to be absolutely convinced.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I knew a man who had an NDE. He suffered a heart attack in a restaurant, and a doctor who was there checked him out and said he was dead. The man reported that the doctor put the stethoscope to his heart and said "Expired!"
The reason I believe this was a real NDE is because this was not an educated man. If he had dreamed this up, he would never have come up with the word "Expired!" He would have said something like "He's dead" or "He's gone" I can believe that a busy doctor who came in to have lunch would say that about a man he had never seen before. I don't think it was possible for John to dream it up.
John's friends kept doing CPR as they rushed him to the hospital, and the ER doctors revived him.
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
A doctor who took a stethoscope to a restaurant? And someone in recent years using the word expired to mean dead? I find both of those quite surprising things!
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Some doctors routinely carry their stethoscopes in their coat pockets.
This happened years ago.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
50:50 eh Evensong? Finely balanced? If they're not hallucinations, then what IS the scientific explanation?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
That they are a biological (neuro, chemical etc) phenomenon, which a person then translates into an experience ie something they can understand and communicate.
This does not deny their existence or validity I hasten to add.
I think my spirituality is mediated through my neurological wiring but that doesn't make me a lesser Christian.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I remember a flying dream in which I was telling myself I could not be dreaming because I could clearly observe the plant on the rooftop of a modern high rise - which is not something I could know about.
However, much as it felt like a vivid, out of body experience, I think it more likely that I was in an imaginative recreation, assembled out of memories and delivered with enough narrative coherence to be convincing. I think this because that is what the creative imagination does in waking life, in books, for example.
If you have an impressive subjective experience, it may not be real in the sense that it could be confirmed by another observer, but it may be real in changing your attitudes or beliefs.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The (anti-Biblical in my opinion) 23 minutes in hell book (discussed in a different thread a month or two ago) was a dream, not a NDE. But are there some who claim NDEs of hell?
Howard Storm who was an atheist prior to having an NDE reports a hellish experience. The first case recounted in Dr Maurice Rawlings' book 'Beyond Death's Door', was a 'hellish' NDE. The gentleman in question collapsed on a treadmill during a medical exam and kept telling Rawlings not to stop CPR, because every time he did, the man went "back to hell". When Dr Rawlings questioned the man the next day, he couldn't remember anything about it.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The (anti-Biblical in my opinion) 23 minutes in hell book (discussed in a different thread a month or two ago) was a dream, not a NDE. But are there some who claim NDEs of hell?
Howard Storm who was an atheist prior to having an NDE reports a hellish experience. The first case recounted in Dr Maurice Rawlings' book 'Beyond Death's Door', was a 'hellish' NDE. The gentleman in question collapsed on a treadmill during a medical exam and kept telling Rawlings not to stop CPR, because every time he did, the man went "back to hell". When Dr Rawlings questioned the man the next day, he couldn't remember anything about it.
In that case what the man was experiencing might be construed as either literal or figurative, though? i.e. was he returning to a literal hell (a horrible afterlife) or a figurative hell (painful near-death experience, difficulty breathing, several cardiac pain, whatever)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
From Rawlings' description, it seems literal. According to the account, he begged Rawlings not to stop compressions, because every time Rawlings stopped, he went to hell. Rawlings remarked that he had never had patient ask him not to stop compressions since chest compressions are extremely painful. He also says that every time he stopped compressions and the man became unconscious, there was a compete cessation of respirations and heart beat.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
As to the "is NDE real or not", a friend who nearly died in childbirth said the experience eliminated fear of death. Not scary when you get a glimpse of what's next. (Unless your NDE was of hell, I assume.)
"Real" or not, that's a significant effect.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What, he literally went to literal Hell? Which literal Hell? Hades? Anaon? Gehenna? Uffern? Tartarus? Peklo? Erebus? Tuonela? Acheros? Hetgwauge? Dis? Kuzimu? Phlegethon? O le nu'u-o-nonoa? Lethe? Mictlan? Styx? Great Yarmouth Marine Parade?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
Possibly, no, possibly, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, possibly.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I'd like to read more extensive reporting than that rather short article before I formed an opinion. Though I recently read something else about a report on NDEs, maybe the same one, in which one person reported an out of body experience in which they saw the roof of the building they were in and an orange sneaker was on it. Afterward someone checked and yes, the orange sneaker was there. If true, that's pretty interesting.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Found the article I read here , sorry my mistake it, was a tennis shoe not an orange sneaker.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So why do you prefer ancient Egyptian hell? Do you prefer ancient Egyptian scales of judgement too? Oldest myth equals most authentic? Most literal? Or our evolution of them is? How does that work? What is the end-point of the evolution of hell? Was it perfected in Jesus? Did He know something we don't?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The question is did He? As a human being. You say yes. Great. On what authority?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
No one knows for sure, so I get to guess too.
All theology summed up in one sentence ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
As to the "is NDE real or not", a friend who nearly died in childbirth said the experience eliminated fear of death. Not scary when you get a glimpse of what's next. (Unless your NDE was of hell, I assume.)
"Real" or not, that's a significant effect.
I regained consciousness from having been in shock through bloodloss with a clear "memory" of having been in a plane crash. I can "remember" the oxygen masks coming down. I guess that as I was regaining consciousness, or just before I went into shock, my mind was trying to make sense of the oxygen mask on my face. It felt like a "memory" rather than a dream, but it's a nonsense memory, because I was in hospital the whole time.
I wasn't particularly afraid of death before this, but I'm absolutely not afraid of death since; if the hospital hadn't put me on a drip / oxygen/ blood transfusion, the point at which I went into shock for the second time (shortly after the plane crash memory) would have been my last conscious knowledge, and everything was warm, golden and unscary. I am sure this was all a physical side effect of blood loss rather than anything spiritual, but it was quite pleasant and relaxed.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
No one knows for sure, so I get to guess too.
All theology summed up in one sentence
And a great deal more of human experience as well. As I get older Truth seems less and less important. If it works for you ...
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
No one knows for sure, so I get to guess too.
All theology summed up in one sentence
Marvelous. As que sais-je has just said, also a summary of everything you wanted to know about everything. I suppose some guesses are educated, well, that's what they tell me.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suppose some guesses are educated, well, that's what they tell me.
I'd go for an emotionally educated guess. My brother-in-law is in the last month or so of dying - in great pain - of prostate cancer. Before it became so serious he presented to me his 'proof' of immortality of the soul. I found it unconvincing but what would have been gained by saying so? His belief helps him and his wife get though this.
SoF threads spend a lot of time arguing over this and that. Undoubtedly the arguing can be fun in a sort of "My argument is better than yours" sort of way - just so long as we don't start believing that makes us right.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I am so sorry about your brother-in-law, and I agree that this would not be the right context to get into debate with him about it; that said, though, I do believe that truth really is absolutely important, and I would not want to believe a nice lie only to find out it was all wrong at the end.
To me the arguing on the Ship isn't fun, and it's absolutely about whether various ideas are right or wrong, to one degree or another. It shouldn't be about a given person being right, but about whether the concepts are true or false. In some cases the matters at hand are, literally, deadly serious--or even more serious than life and death themselves.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I do believe that truth really is absolutely important
And yet others do not, so at the very least the claim that "truth is absolutely important" does not seem to be necessarily true.
Looking at almost every issue discussed on SOF there seem to be lots of people living - as far as I can judge - equally good lives and yet disagreeing about the truth of almost any statement.
I would not want to believe a nice lie only to find out it was all wrong at the end I equivocated. It is logically impossible to discover at death that there is no immortal soul, you can only discover there is.
to one degree or another Believed to be true-ish then rather than true?
As good Dr Tom says just before my sig Where we desire to be informed, ’tis good to contest with men above ourselves; but, to confirm and establish our opinions, ’tis best to argue with judgments below our own, that the frequent spoils and victories over their reasons may settle in ourselves an esteem and confirmed opinion of our own. I've learned a lot from SoF and so my opinions become ever more unsettled. Which, oddly enough, seems to suit me.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I do believe that truth really is absolutely important
And yet others do not, so at the very least the claim that "truth is absolutely important" does not seem to be necessarily true.
That doesn't follow at all. The others who do not are, I believe, terribly wrong. Whether they believe it doesn't make it so.
quote:
Looking at almost every issue discussed on SOF there seem to be lots of people living - as far as I can judge - equally good lives and yet disagreeing about the truth of almost any statement.
So?
quote:
I would not want to believe a nice lie only to find out it was all wrong at the end I equivocated. It is logically impossible to discover at death that there is no immortal soul, you can only discover there is.
I did not mean only that, but any nice lie. Say that God is good and loving, or something. If He really were, say, like the Devil, I don't want to believe He is good and find out He's evil in the end.
I suppose at the very last moment of life, one could somehow discover the ghastly horror that that's all there is before the lights go out forever and ever.
Thank God, I don't believe that's true.
quote:
to one degree or another Believed to be true-ish then rather than true?
No, but there might be more complex bits and pieces involved in various things. There could be a statement of faith with ten statements, and some could be true, some could be false, some could be true but conditional on things, some could be vague, etc.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
The others who do not are, I believe, terribly wrong. Whether they believe it doesn't make it so.
Any more than your believing them wrong makes that so. But I meant that "truth is absolutely important" is not a necessary truth. Universalists do not consider knowing the truth necessarily affects what happens to you after death. Generally if a truth is necessary it should be impossible to imagine a consistent alternative scenario. A God who values compassion above knowledge seems possible.
But I don't want to claim much. A lot of things are true, but lots of the things I believe to be true almost certainly aren't. I'm an epistemological skeptic more than an ontological one. I doubt that searching for Truth (with a 'T' rather than a 't') is very fruitful.
ChastMastr: I did not mean only that, but any nice lie. Say that God is good and loving, or something. If He really were, say, like the Devil, I don't want to believe He is good and find out He's evil in the end.
I would prefer to get on with my life while I could in that case. How would it help to know the universe was ruled by the Devil? There would be no point in behaving differently. But that is, I know, a silly quibble.
If I were a Christian I'd probably be a fideist (or a schismatic Muggletonian - though alas they are all gone). Actually fideism, of a sort, is possible in any religion or none I guess.
Philosophy and theology are great for those who enjoy them and get satisfaction from them (I do from both). A superior sort of cryptic crossword puzzling. But hardly necessary. After all Genesis 3:3-6 isn't very positive about knowledge of good and evil, nor does Jesus seem to find knowledge as important as compassion (I'm assuming "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves" refers to astuteness rather than knowledge). No doubt the Priest and the Levite believed they had a better grasp of Truth than the Samaritan who had only compassion and practical help to offer.
Montaigne somewhere says that the Stoics had the best arguments but the Epicureans had the best lives. I'm more than happy to agree. So off to the allotment.
But you may well be right and I wrong. So it goes.
A man may be in as just possession of truth as of a city, and yet be forced to surrender; ’tis therefore far better to enjoy her with peace than to hazard her on a battle. If, therefore, there rise any doubts in my way, I do forget them, or at least defer them, till my better settled judgment and more manly reason be able to resolve them. Yet more Religio Medici.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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YES. And not so much "did" as "does."
