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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why don't Protestants kneel in Church?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
If a posture moves you positively toward God, please do it. If is does not, don't.
However, if you are with a group or in a church where it isn't done, regardless of the presence of kneelers, don't. Lest you resemble that loud praying man in the NT. Better to not stand out like that.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
[QUOTE]Thus the principles of your Anglican church are insubstantial, and her substance is unprincipled. But we already knew that...
Nice quote - although what you know may not be what others understand or believe.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
On a more serious note - I've noticed that most Anglicans these days sit to pray. This feels odd to me these days ... I'd rather stand or kneel.
Standing feels 'right' to me, but perhaps I've been knocking around with the Orthodox too much.
What doesn't feel right to be is this sitting and bending down between the pews thing ... it's neither one thing or another.
I don't really have any objections, I hasten to add, with whatever posture anyone adopts to pray - Baptists, Methodists, RCs, Anglicans, Orthodox or whoever else ... but it does feel odd to me to sit during times of prayer. In my own personal devotions I tend to stand ... although I will, of course, say 'arrow prayers' in any posture - sitting or whatever else.
Not that I do enough praying, nor have I yet to cultivate an 'attitude of prayer' ... I've not even started.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
On a more serious note - I've noticed that most Anglicans these days sit to pray. This feels odd to me these days ... I'd rather stand or kneel.
It's probably due to (a) people are taller today, so find it harder to kneel in the restricted space of a pew; (b) church-goers are, on average, older and thus less physically flexible (arthritis rules OK);(c) society has become less formal and the posture reflects this; or (d) changes in liturgical language have prompted (or permitted) changes in liturgical position.
Or all four.
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
On a more serious note - I've noticed that most Anglicans these days sit to pray. This feels odd to me these days ... I'd rather stand or kneel.
Part of that is just a casualisation of everything isn't it? Along with not dressing in ones Sunday Best, and the vicar preaching with his hands in the pocket of his fleece.
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
Who do you mean by 'Protestants'?
If CofE figure in your calculations I'm not sure where you've been going to church: I've been CofE all my life and can't recall any of the churches I've attended regularly being full of people sitting for prayer.
IME if people don't kneel for prayer its either because they're non-conformist or because they have issues with mobility.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I go to Evensong these days, and even though the liturgy makes references to kneeling it looks as though the majority just sit.
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
no prophet . . .
quote:
If a posture moves you positively toward God, please do it. If is does not, don't.
Trouble is, I'm not so sure how to find out. How would you evaluate whether a posture/practice moved you toward God?
My thoughts on kneeling are admittedly based on my experience at Choral Evensong where we are actually bidden to kneel but don't. So it's not just an absence of kneeling but a refusal to do it even after having been bidden.
I agree, btw, that this is not general, and I think it is because the BCP is being used.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
As a middle of the road Anglican, I see myself as being part of a church with catholic substance and protestant principles.
Thus the principles of your Anglican church are insubstantial, and her substance is unprincipled. But we already knew that...
Cruelty masquerading as witty phrasing.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
The vast majority of CoE congregations I've encountered/been a part of have sat for prayer.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Cruelty masquerading as witty phrasing.
That looks suspiciously like a personal attack masquerading as a meta-comment. Make it clear henceforth whether you are engaging with the issue or attacking the person, and if the latter, as for all posters, take it to Hell.
/hosting
[ 12. October 2014, 20:56: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
One reason might be the emphasis away from penitence in modern liturgies towards thanksgiving, for which the appropriate posture is standing. Sometimes, as in the church I attended today, the action of the liturgy invites people to move from place to place (around the font for the penitential rite; around the ambo for the liturgy of the Word; around the altar for the eucharist.
The Community of the Resurrection might count as 'protestant' in some eyes, but since the re-ordering of their church the brethren and guests either sit or stand throughout the eucharist and offices.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I do not worship the furniture either, but I do reverence the table at which the supper He instituted is held. .
I've never heard that one.
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
That does not depend upon any particular Eucharistic theology.
I think it does. Some people explain acknowledging the altar as referring to bowing to the reserved sacrament (symbolising God).
For me it's simply a sign of acknowledgment that I am entering a holy space: one of God's visible houses where beautiful and powerful things are done together in the name of God.
Perhaps you should move around your diocese more and speak to people from a range of backgrounds. An acknowledgment is common here across a range of churchmanship, including the churches I'd describe as traditional Sydney low church Prayer Book.
I can't remember the present arrangements at CCSL, but here tabernacles are not in use and aumbries are not behind the main altar. I find a real contradiction between your last paragraph and what you said in the original post. Are you able to explain more?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Hilda of Whitby
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# 7341
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Posted
I'm a cradle Episcopalian in the USA--grew up with the 1928 BCP and the 1940 Hymnal, in a church where there was a basket of mantillas at the door in case a woman forgot to wear a hat. There was LOTS of kneeling then.
50 years later, I still kneel, and my knees are crap. It's an expression of awe and devotion to God, and I will do it as long as I am physically able.
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I can't remember the present arrangements at CCSL, but here tabernacles are not in use and aumbries are not behind the main altar. I find a real contradiction between your last paragraph and what you said in the original post. Are you able to explain more?
Sure. But not quite sure where the contradiction is...? Do I have to kneel to acknowledge the power and beauty of what we do together in church?
There is an interesting history of kneeling in the church here.
My feeling that kneeling is a penitential act seems to be not without foundation in the early church.
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a theological scrapbook
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
IME if people don't kneel for prayer its either because they're non-conformist
This I didn't know. Seems to be true that nonconformists did not kneel at the Eucharist. A book on the history of Puritans says similar things but dates it back to ancient practise.
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a theological scrapbook
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ChastMastr
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# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
However, if you are with a group or in a church where it isn't done, regardless of the presence of kneelers, don't. Lest you resemble that loud praying man in the NT. Better to not stand out like that.
I've wrestled with this, and I have made my peace with kneeling (or leaning forward depending on options available) whether other people do or not. I'm not doing it to be seen by them.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think Christians have been kneeling to monarchs for centuries without too much ado.
Not Americans. It's a bit of a "thing" for us.
Well, not most Americans. For me kneeling before someone I am subordinate/subject to was something I realized my faith did not forbid even though it was politically heretical by US standards. I suspect it is the same for others in that community even if they don't share my religious faith.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Pews, chairs - introduced by the devil to facilitate the hearing of long boring sermons. That's what I reckon anyway. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Indeed. What did people do before there were pews?
They STOOD, as God intended.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Personally I prefer the tradition of standing to pray.
Have you tried this in practice? Or is this just greener grass in the neighbour's garden? The Orthodox who do this seem to drag things out over hours.
No IngoB post about worship is complete without a swipe at the Orthodox.
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'll kneel to God but not to people.
I think Christians have been kneeling to monarchs for centuries without too much ado.
Not Americans. It's a bit of a "thing" for us.
But Evensong, to whom this was addressed, is not an American.
And Americans worship a fucking FLAG. I'd rather kneel to a monarch than pray to a flag.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
My feeling that kneeling is a penitential act seems to be not without foundation in the early church.
I fail to see that we are only to be penitential on Ash Wednesday and Holy Friday. Do we not pray "forgive us our trespasses"? Is there no general confession during the mass/liturgy? Are we not meant to confess our sins, and that more often than those 2 days of the year?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Evensong, I see a real inconsistency between you comments about acknowledging the altar and then your comment that "For me it's simply a sign of acknowledgment that I am entering a holy space: one of God's visible houses where beautiful and powerful things are done together in the name of God." The first you decry as simply reverencing a piece of furniture; the second you suggest is correct.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
It's getting a bit tetchy and personal hereabouts and there's a certain amount of pissed-offness showing. I'll extend Eutychus' Host post upstream to a general nudge in the right direction. Remember what Hell is for, please. Feel free to criticise posts strongly of course, but remember there's a line.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Evensong, I see a real inconsistency between you comments about acknowledging the altar and then your comment that "For me it's simply a sign of acknowledgment that I am entering a holy space: one of God's visible houses where beautiful and powerful things are done together in the name of God." The first you decry as simply reverencing a piece of furniture; the second you suggest is correct.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
The person that asked if I worshipped furniture was not me, but a friend of mine asking me. I don't believe those that acknowledge the altar are worshipping furniture. Neither did he really. Was just having a dig at those of us higher up the candle. I personally thought it was hilarious!
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a theological scrapbook
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Many years ago I worked in West Africa. Every Monday morning missionaries and national staff held a prayer meeting. The prayers were arranged in a circle and we all (about 20 people) knelt in front of them when we prayed.
Anyone peeking in through the windows could well have thought we were chair-worshippers!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I remember an elderly priest of this diocese describing his deanery chapter meetings when he was a curate. They would sit to discuss on comfortable sofas and armchairs, then when it came to the prayer time they would turn round and kneel on the floor, heads in the cushions and bums in the air! A reaction to that sort of thing was inevitable.
Kneeling for personal prayer can be a very helpful discipline. But public worship is not personal - well, not private - prayer and kneeling tends to draw metaphorical curtains around ourselves. There could well be moments in the liturgy when kneeling (true kneeling, not the squat which fools nobody, least of all God) is appropriate, but that is what they are, moments. Who would want to go back to the old low mass when you knelt for everything except the gospel and creed?
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
However, if you are with a group or in a church where it isn't done, regardless of the presence of kneelers, don't. Lest you resemble that loud praying man in the NT. Better to not stand out like that.
I have serious nerve damage in my feet, while my knees are in excellent shape. Kneeling takes much less out of me than standing.
I hope my fellow-worshipers are more intent on their own devotions than my physical posture.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The Community of the Resurrection might count as 'protestant' in some eyes, but since the re-ordering of their church the brethren and guests either sit or stand throughout the eucharist and offices.
Not quite the case in the current pattern: for the offices we sit for the psalms, but stand for just about everything else; for mass we sit for the epistle and any sermon and otherwise stand. Kneeling is only the posture for the confession prior to Compline and for those whose custom it is to receive the Holy Communion (though there is no rail). And for those of the brethern who are less mobile than they once were, sitting throughout is the usual posture.
And my view? Well, the chair is useful - I sometimes need somewhere to put the office book down!
Tom (Current Mirfield Student)
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
The church I grew up in only stood up for the opening and closing hymn, the rest was all sitting. How I long back to that. The Lutheran church I attend here in Brazil has a lot of standing up and sitting down. It distracts me endlessly. When I'm there, I'm not going to the gym.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
At the very least, they can be persuaded that the bodily position makes no difference to their prayers; for they constantly forget, what you must always remember, that they are animals and that whatever their bodies do affects their souls. --Screwtape
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
The Lutheran church I attend here in Brazil has a lot of standing up and sitting down. It distracts me endlessly. When I'm there, I'm not going to the gym.
Liturgical calisthenics.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
This thread again. Since I'm not Anglican and never was, I don't have this hang-up about kneeling or not. I've never kneeled in church and no church I have ever been a member of has had kneelers fitted. I even sit to hear the Gospel. When we have the ecumenical services in our town at Christmas and Good Friday, the Anglican rector often asks us to stand. And everyone knows whoever is at the lectern calls the shots.
And since I'm comfortable with my liturgical and ecclesiological identity, I'm not bothered in the least by not kneeling.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I'm not sure not kneeling is particularly a Protestant thing? I know quite a few Prod churches where kneeling is commonplace. However, I think it could be said that the practice isn't so uniform as in 'everyone' does it. So where kneeling does take place, some people do it and some don't.
I noticed - with some sadness - that few, if any, people in my old home church where kneeling was common, no longer do it, and I think this is because since the arrival of the 'new' pews there simply isn't enough space to get down there and onto a hassock. And the hassocks are so pretty and comfortable compared to the thin flat rubbery mats we used to use! Many of the Irish CofI churches I visited a good proportion of folk would kneel - though not all. The old fashioned pews seemed to allow plenty of space. But I noticed in the CofE churches I knew of, it was not a thing generally done, except perhaps by certain congregations (trad services eg). Again, partly I believe because the provision wasn't good and partly through simple disuse of the custom.
Funnily enough, I always think it's a little odd NOT to kneel to receive communion which is almost (but not entirely) the universal Anglican practice I've come across. I know some Protestants who won't even take their communion if they can't kneel at the rail 'properly'! Which is very sad, of course.
I do understand a little what Evensong means about the focus of the kneeling being the president, in that I've attended many services where it's the centrally-placed music group who often appears to be the sole recipients of everybody's worship efforts. But it's a small effort to recall that it's God being worshipped; and if one's theology and intention is reasonably secure there surely can be little possibility of a rational person being too distracted by feelings of 'worshipping' the wrong Object!
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
As a British Methodist I've kneeled at the altar to take communion, but not all Methodist churches have this practice. Kneeling is highly uncommon at any other time during normal worship, and few Methodist churches provide kneelers.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Just a bit of anecdote. I have been to hear an organ recital at First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas years ago. Of all the surprising weirdness, they had kneelers in the pews of this old downtown battleship. No idea whether they were in some actual use then, or whether they even still exist today, but they must have been installed for a reason and used on some occasions at some point in that congregation's history.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
i agree that Protestants don't generally kneel, but in the Lutheran church worship material, at least, they allow for kneeling during prayer, confesssion, etc. And many Lurheran churches have paddded kneelers. It's just that the congregants have the choice of using them or standing, as the Spirit moves them.
Not married to any position, although kneeling is comfy to me, but based on my observations, if a church governing body is going to introduce kneelers to a congregation if kneeler virgins, tney should excercise patience and tolerance with the children ( and occasional adults) who forget themselves and pit their feet on the kneelers when not in use. Screaming "THAT'S NOT A FOOTREST! " at baffled five year olds is so not the look.
Let's just say my people had transition issues.
[ 13. October 2014, 20:19: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
Might it be a sign of declining religious fervour?
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G.K. Chesterton
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Or an aging church population?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
With the removal of pews there's nowhere to hang kneelers. Modern church chairs could be fitted with hooks, but I've only ever seen very old chairs of this type; the modern church chair has nowhere to put a kneeler.
The gap between each row of chairs is relatively narrow anyway, and people are taller and plumper than they used to be.
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
As my six-year old discovered, they are somewhat helpful if you are trying to see the action going on up front. Especially if your dad doesn't really want you standing on the pew.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
With the removal of pews there's nowhere to hang kneelers. Modern church chairs could be fitted with hooks, but I've only ever seen very old chairs of this type; the modern church chair has nowhere to put a kneeler.
The gap between each row of chairs is relatively narrow anyway, and people are taller and plumper than they used to be.
I have seen modern single occupant church chairs with kneelers kind of built in, but I imagine refitting a church with a ton of these would cost a mint.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Hehehe. Liturgically shocked an Oz Anglican. +10 Eccles Points to me. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
We were once attending a Chapel service at school (Uniting Church) when I was asked to read the Gospel - why, I don't know at all save for my mellifluous voice and distinguished demeanour. I invited the congregation to stand with me while I acclaimed and read the Gospel. And they did! I used the standard APBA acclamation, choosing a suitable passage for the sentence, and at the end, one or 2 even said "Praise to You, Lord Jesus Christ"!
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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viatrix
Apprentice
# 18249
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Posted
Perhaps its because, given the age of so many congregants these days, they're all like me, with artificial knees - with which kneeling becomes agony. Be kind and forgiving of them please.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
You'll not be singing this hymn, then.
I do sympathise: Mrs. Trainfan has bad arthritis in her knees (a 3rd arthroscopy is scheduled for December).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
With the removal of pews there's nowhere to hang kneelers. Modern church chairs could be fitted with hooks, but I've only ever seen very old chairs of this type; the modern church chair has nowhere to put a kneeler.
The gap between each row of chairs is relatively narrow anyway, and people are taller and plumper than they used to be.
Well yes, but in most churches there are fewer people attending than there used to be so you might be able to space the rows out more if you really wanted to.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
You'll not be singing this hymn, then.
...
You could always read Isaiah 35:3 instead.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
It occurs to me that I've seen people in Pentecostal churches kneeling during times of private prayer. They kneel facing their own chairs or remain seated, or stand. If they were all following a set liturgy at the same time then this freedom of position would be less likely, I imagine.
I also have vague memories of being in a church somewhere where there was a big box of cushions near the entrance. If you were planning on kneeling you'd just pick one out, then replace it at the end of the service. This is a good idea, as it prevents the need for specially adapted chairs.
However, despite being a one-time lay steward I've never heard any conversation in church, either among the laity or the clergy, about whether more kneeling would be a good idea. If people want it, they should say so in church meetings, and in discussion with church leaders.
Me personally, I tend to associate kneeling with an idealised form of domestic prayer (due to references in paintings, hymns and stories, I suppose), but I've never considered exactly how it's better than praying in any other position. Muslims look impressive as they kneel in multitudes with their heads touching the ground. But Christians have no particular obligation to kneel for worship.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
in the Orthodox Church there is a general (although not always followed, or even apparently (see link below) universally agreed upon) rule that one does not kneel on Sunday (the day of Resurrection, or "little Pascha". There is definitely a rule against kneeling during the period right after Pascha (Easter) (or at least that's what I was taught.. again, seems there is some debate per the link below). Since most people only attend church services on Sunday, they rarely kneel. there are exceptions (the kneeling service on Pentecost). But services during most of the year which are held on other days of the week do include a lot of kneeling.. and we (mostly) don't have pews or those cushion thingies.. we just kneel on the floor. which can be hard on the knees.. particularly on, say, Holy Thursday, when you kneel during the "12 Gospel readings" (a three hour or longer service) although not through all of it, just the actual Gospel readings. It's not the kneeling that gets me.. it's the getting up and/or down!
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/04/kneeling-in-church-on-sundays.html
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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