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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Miscellaneous questions of a liturgical nature
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
You say "traditionalist" like it could be a good thing.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 10. June 2013, 19:33: Message edited by: Trisagion ]
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
In RC Calendar:
Why is so much made of Birth of John the Baptist (Solemnity)
and so little of Mary Magdalene (Memorial)?
I'm not actually, tho it seems I am (!) contrasting the two. Its meant as two questions. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Mary, a priest??
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
In that vein, I went to Mass in the local Catholic Cathedral on Tuesday and was surprised that St Barnabas the Apostle only merited a memorial.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
In RC Calendar:
Why is so much made of Birth of John the Baptist (Solemnity)
and so little of Mary Magdalene (Memorial)?
I'm not actually, tho it seems I am (!) contrasting the two. Its meant as two questions.
I am also surprised that St. Mary Magdalene and St. Barnabas are not feasts. They were, however, both third-class feasts in the 1962 missal, which is what we now call memorials. Prior to that, the kalendar's ranking system was quite complex. Both were doubles, and St. Barnabas was a double major.
As for St. John the Baptist, his Nativity has always been of the highest liturgical rank. He is, after all, second only to Our Lady (even ahead of St. Joseph), because he was sinless. He was not conceived without sin, as was she, but was sanctified in the womb at the Visitation, which is why he leapt. At that moment he was sanctified and the Church has always understood that he was without sin from that moment. This is why in lists of the saints in liturgy and devotions (litany, Confiteor, the Libera Nos and Suscipe, Sancta Trinitas in the EF Mass, etc.) always place him immediately after Our Lady. The Church has not solemnly defined his sinlessness, but it has been commonly held belief since the ancient Church Fathers. This explains it very succinctly: http://catholicism.about.com/od/beliefsteachings/p/Who-Was-Born-Without-Original-Sin.htm
[ 12. June 2013, 23:00: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
As for St. John the Baptist, his Nativity has always been of the highest liturgical rank. He is, after all, second only to Our Lady (even ahead of St. Joseph), because he was sinless. He was not conceived without sin, as was she, but was sanctified in the womb at the Visitation, which is why he leapt. At that moment he was sanctified and the Church has always understood that he was without sin from that moment. This is why in lists of the saints in liturgy and devotions (litany, Confiteor, the Libera Nos and Suscipe, Sancta Trinitas in the EF Mass, etc.) always place him immediately after Our Lady. The Church has not solemnly defined his sinlessness, but it has been commonly held belief since the ancient Church Fathers. This explains it very succinctly: http://catholicism.about.com/od/beliefsteachings/p/Who-Was-Born-Without-Original-Sin.htm
This is, of course, why St John is the only saint whose main feast is his Nativity, rather than his death (or Conception, in the case of Mary).
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malik3000
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# 11437
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Posted
I tend to think that the feast of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist is really more a feast of the Lord -- because its focus is on the birth of the Lord's Forerunner as part of the mystery of the Incarnation, hence its celebration 6 months before the feast of the Birth of our Lord.
Then, continuing that line of thinking, John's "own" feast is that of the day he died a martyr's death -- i.e., the feast of the Beheading of John the Baptist on August 29.
(This latter feast is in the Canadian BAS and Common Worship, but not in the US BCP.)
[ 15. June 2013, 01:36: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Then, continuing that line of thinking, John's "own" feast is that of the day he died a martyr's death -- i.e., the feast of the Beheading of John the Baptist on August 29.
Which delights in the traditional title "The Decollation of S John Baptist", which I've always liked.
Though, of course, both feasts of S John are apt to recall the one after him being preferred before him, and so act as a salutary reminder that all feast-days of the saints are for the glory of God.
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
[qb] In RC Calendar:
Why is so much made of Birth of John the Baptist (Solemnity)
and so little of Mary Magdalene (Memorial)?
I'm not actually, tho it seems I am (!) contrasting the two. Its meant as two questions.
I am also surprised that St. Mary Magdalene and St. Barnabas are not feasts. They were, however, both third-class feasts in the 1962 missal, which is what we now call memorials. Prior to that, the kalendar's ranking system was quite complex. Both were doubles, and St. Barnabas was a double major....
In the same vein I find it odd that S. Lawrence has a higher rank than Mary Magdalene. Presumably because of the 'Roman' connection.
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Mary, a priest??
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
In the same vein I find it odd that S. Lawrence has a higher rank than Mary Magdalene. Presumably because of the 'Roman' connection.
Or because the latter is a woman.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
In the same vein I find it odd that S. Lawrence has a higher rank than Mary Magdalene. Presumably because of the 'Roman' connection.
Or because the latter is a woman.
Hardly. He is the protomartyr of Rome.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
St Mary Magdalene?? I said 'the latter', not 'the former'
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Don't the Orthodox esteem her as equal to the apostles?
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
And the C of E has graded her up a bit recently too.
The point about women saints is interesting. Has anyone worked out the gender balance in modern church calendars such as Common Worship or modern RC? I for one would be interested, but not interested enough to count it myself.
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Mary, a priest??
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LostinChelsea
Shipmate
# 5305
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Posted
This doesn't answer Percy's question, but it's in the general neighborhood. This might have been linked elsewhere, but here is a count of all Episcopal (US variety) churches with a breakdown of dedications.Sixteen to Mary Magdalene, I see. It's from the always-interesting Haligweorc blog: Maketh thy click be here.
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Don't the Orthodox esteem her as equal to the apostles?
Yes, they do: ἰσαπόστολος. At one of their cathedrals hereabouts, she is joined with Thecla, Nino of Georgia, Nicholas of Japan, and Cosmos of Aitolas.
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moonlitdoor
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# 11707
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Posted
I am not sure if this is an appropriate place for a miscellaneous question about the names of priests but if not let me know.
The Roman Catholic church closest to where I live has on its website and noticeboard that its priests are Father Derek McGuire and Father Kim Addison, and this is how I have seen Catholic priests names written before.
But following a post by Triple Tiara I looked at the website of the church St James Spanish Place, whose priests are The Reverend Christopher Colven, The Reverend Nicholas Kavanagh, and The Reverend David Irwin. Is the difference personal preference or does it mean something ?
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Which goes to show that web programmers do not speak authoritatively on matters of style.
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I am not sure if this is an appropriate place for a miscellaneous question about the names of priests but if not let me know.
The Roman Catholic church closest to where I live has on its website and noticeboard that its priests are Father Derek McGuire and Father Kim Addison, and this is how I have seen Catholic priests names written before.
But following a post by Triple Tiara I looked at the website of the church St James Spanish Place, whose priests are The Reverend Christopher Colven, The Reverend Nicholas Kavanagh, and The Reverend David Irwin. Is the difference personal preference or does it mean something ?
It's more a question of register: The Reverend X is the official style of all priests, many of whom happen to prefer to be called Fr X in person. Letters should most properly be addressed to the Rev'd X, for example, rather than Fr. X. 'Fathering' priests (as it were) is indeed a relatively late development - well into the C18th clergymen were still called Rev'd Mr (master) X, &c.
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
(Although it is possible that the church referenced is served by a religious order, in which case 'Father' might be technically correct as well...).
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
This is a common feature in many European countries.In Italy priests are usually called 'Don........ (Don Bosco is well known as an example) They can also be called 'Padre......'
In France priests may be addressed as 'Monsieur le Cure' or Monsieur l'Abbe or indeed as 'mon pere' In Austria and presumably also in Germany they are addressed as 'Hochwuerden' (your reverence) although priests belonging to religious orders may be addressed as 'Pater'
Other titles would be Herr Pfarrer for the pp and Herr Kaplan for a curate.
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LostinChelsea:
This doesn't answer Percy's question, but it's in the general neighborhood. This might have been linked elsewhere, but here is a count of all Episcopal (US variety) churches with a breakdown of dedications.Sixteen to Mary Magdalene, I see. It's from the always-interesting Haligweorc blog: Maketh thy click be here.
And
here is a link to an equivalent list for England. A bit dated but interesting nonetheless.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
In RC Calendar:
Why is so much made of Birth of John the Baptist (Solemnity)
and so little of Mary Magdalene (Memorial)?
I'm not actually, tho it seems I am (!) contrasting the two. Its meant as two questions.
Her feast is odd though. In the modern office, even though her feast is only ranked as a memorial, it's celebrated as if it were a feast.
The office of readings has a proper hymn for her feast day, and lauds and vespers have proper hymns, antiphons, readings, and a responsory.
The Sunday psalms are used at lauds as on feasts and solemnities, and the psalms from the common of holy women are used at vespers. (This is all according to the latin version, I don't know if the English translation kept her proper hymns or not.)
So pretty much the same amount of material, minus the te deum at the office of readings. Why'd they do it this way? I have no idea.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
... In Austria and presumably also in Germany they are addressed as 'Hochwuerden' (your reverence) ...
This conjures up visions of a German version of Dad's Army. What is German for 'Really, Mr Yeatman...'
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Good idea.
Wirklich, Herr Yeatman! (says Google Translate)
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
Trouble is that a Nazi organisation clomping about in a Lutheran Church Hall would probably be lacking in comedic potential...
especially if they were Prussians...
PD
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Well, yes, that did occur to me too.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
quote:
Originally posted by LostinChelsea:
This doesn't answer Percy's question, but it's in the general neighborhood. This might have been linked elsewhere, but here is a count of all Episcopal (US variety) churches with a breakdown of dedications.Sixteen to Mary Magdalene, I see. It's from the always-interesting Haligweorc blog: Maketh thy click be here.
And
here is a link to an equivalent list for England. A bit dated but interesting nonetheless.
Oooh thank you!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Trouble is that a Nazi organisation clomping about in a Lutheran Church Hall would probably be lacking in comedic potential...
especially if they were Prussians...
PD
I guess you didn't get the postcard from the parish drama guild announcing auditions for the musical "Springtime for Hitler"?
[ 18. June 2013, 03:30: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I have a little smile at the whole titles thing as folks tend to refer to me by the title I had when they first got to know me.
My long time parishioners tend to call me "Fr P" or Rector. The clergy who got to know me before I got additional duties refer to me as 'Bishop P.' Those who know me only as the Archbishop of the jurisdiction refer to me as 'Your Grace.'
I am coming around to the idea that you can call me anything you like except late for dinner!
PD
[ 18. June 2013, 05:39: Message edited by: PD ]
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the Ænglican
Shipmate
# 12496
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
quote:
Originally posted by LostinChelsea:
This doesn't answer Percy's question, but it's in the general neighborhood. This might have been linked elsewhere, but here is a count of all Episcopal (US variety) churches with a breakdown of dedications.Sixteen to Mary Magdalene, I see. It's from the always-interesting Haligweorc blog: Maketh thy click be here.
And
here is a link to an equivalent list for England. A bit dated but interesting nonetheless.
Very helpful!
Actually, Walter H. Frere put together/used a list of this sort when he put out his proposals for what a revised prayer book sanctoral Calendar ought to look like in his influential thoughts on prayer book revision. Since his thoughts on the subject became central to most other discussions of the topic they still bear revisiting.
This initial analysis of the list only looked at saints. A full breakdown of the complete list, looking also at names related to Persons of the Trinity, temporal feasts, doctrines, and locations should be forthcoming as time allows.
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LostinChelsea
Shipmate
# 5305
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Posted
quote:
PD spoke (ex cathedra?):
I have a little smile at the whole titles thing as folks tend to refer to me by the title I had when they first got to know me.
Down our way, we had a longtime U.S. senator who was often referred to as "Judge" by folks who'd known him as a jurist back home. I think of this phenomenon as an affectionate and perhaps proud "I knew you when."
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Best when taken in moderation.
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the Ænglican:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
quote:
Originally posted by LostinChelsea:
This doesn't answer Percy's question, but it's in the general neighborhood. This might have been linked elsewhere, but here is a count of all Episcopal (US variety) churches with a breakdown of dedications.Sixteen to Mary Magdalene, I see. It's from the always-interesting Haligweorc blog: Maketh thy click be here.
And
here is a link to an equivalent list for England. A bit dated but interesting nonetheless.
Very helpful!
Actually, Walter H. Frere put together/used a list of this sort when he put out his proposals for what a revised prayer book sanctoral Calendar ought to look like in his influential thoughts on prayer book revision. Since his thoughts on the subject became central to most other discussions of the topic they still bear revisiting.
This initial analysis of the list only looked at saints. A full breakdown of the complete list, looking also at names related to Persons of the Trinity, temporal feasts, doctrines, and locations should be forthcoming as time allows.
The list I pointed to above was used by Lowther Clarke (ed) in 'Liturgy and Worship' a seminal work on the Prayer Book and proposals for its revision.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
In the same vein I find it odd that S. Lawrence has a higher rank than Mary Magdalene. Presumably because of the 'Roman' connection.
Or because the latter is a woman.
Hardly. He is the protomartyr of Rome.
I would say that a close companion of Jesus and the first witness of the resurrection rates higher than the protomartyr of Rome.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
St Mary Magdalen, and St. James, Brother of Our Lord both get on the red letter list in the 1963 revised lectionary that we use. I have to leave myself a green florescent note about them else I either forget them altogether or observe them as Black Letter Days - i.e. they are kept if there is a service that day, or they drop the day before. In the old days most provinces of the Anglican Communion had much the same list of red letter days apart from a couple of ringers. In Ireland, the ringers were St Patrick and St Columba. In the English 1928 PBCP it was Transfiguration and St Mary Magdalen, and in the USA Transfiguration, plus the two black letter, but just about indispensible, Independence Day and Thanksgiving.
PD
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
In the same vein I find it odd that S. Lawrence has a higher rank than Mary Magdalene. Presumably because of the 'Roman' connection.
Or because the latter is a woman.
Hardly. He is the protomartyr of Rome.
I would say that a close companion of Jesus and the first witness of the resurrection rates higher than the protomartyr of Rome.
But that isn't the (sole) principle on which the rank of feasts has historically been based: rather, the rank of the feast depended on the extent of an already extant cultus to that saint. Unsurprisingly, S Lawrence had a large cult at Rome when the kalendar was drawn up.
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
the two black letter, but just about indispensible, Independence Day and Thanksgiving.
Indispensible? Aiiiyah! You're right. That's just the way we spell ethnophyletism around these parts.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
We have managed to get our observances of Fourth of July and Thanksgiving down to a blip during the intercessions and a closing hymn.
We have been using:
This is my song for the Fourth
In our day of thanksgiving for Thanksgiving-it's really more of an All Saints hymn, thus good for November
If there is a 'green' Sunday right before Thanksgiving, then we'll slip in Come, Ye Thankful People, Come, (very appropriate text for between All Saints and Christ the King) or Now Thank We All Our God (whose third verse does refer to the Son reigning in Heaven). Thanksgiving does not trump Christ the King or Advent 1 for us. As long as we've acknowledged it musically somewhere in November, it's all good. Thankfully, we Americans are all about the hype before a holiday, anyway. Once the day actually is upon us, then it's practically over.
[ 21. June 2013, 00:25: Message edited by: Olaf ]
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I have come up with creative solutions for both. July 4th is poorly attended, but if I don't do it I hear about it, I mean really hear about it. So we do a revolutionary war/early republic era service that day - either 1662 with adaptions or the 1789 BCP service on that day, sing metrical psalms, and a couple of old - Isaac Watts era - hymns.
I treat Thanksgiving as Harvest Festival, so we trot our all the old favourites - Come ye thankful people come; Now thank we all our God; We plough the fields and scatter - etc. The mythic element - both traditional and revisionist gets overlooked.
Also, since we moved into the present building, the flags have been at the back.
PD
[ 21. June 2013, 17:22: Message edited by: PD ]
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Most RC parishes I know get out of mixing Thanksgiving into Sunday worship by having a mass on the day itself. People like a little cooking break mid-morning. I'm accustomed to having music for this, but no choir (so kind of halfway in between a regular daily mass and a Sunday mass). Turnout is normally also about halfway between a daily mass and a single Sunday mass. There are optional propers for it, including a selection of readings.
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I got out of the patriotic service business last year. I told them that patriotic songs were great -- at the proper time and place. This year we're observing the proper Proper for the Sundays surrounding it. We are having a community patriotic hymn sing on Sunday evening, 30 June. It will help them feel as though it has been celebrated, and help me feel as though we didn't spend the main service worshiping the country instead of God.
The Sunday evening before Thanksgiving is a community service that rotates between the three participating churches in our community. It will be at our place this year, and the Church of God pastor will preach. So that takes care of Thanksgiving. That just leaves Mother's Day, Father's Day, Memorial Day, and Veteran's Day, and those I tip my hat to but go on about the normal business.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
The 1928 BCP propers for Independence Day are actually anti-jingoistic, as I read them. Almost enough to tempt me to celebrate Mass on that day...
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The 1928 BCP propers for Independence Day are actually anti-jingoistic, as I read them. Almost enough to tempt me to celebrate Mass on that day...
I've just looked them up-- to me, they seem fairly progressive and challenging.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
The 'never on a Sunday' rule applies to Independence Day as it is lower in rank than a second class Sunday, which takes a bit of explaining to some of the Broad Church types. In the event of Independence Day occuring on a Sunday the liturgical observance will be Trinity-whatever.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I am not sure if this is an appropriate place for a miscellaneous question about the names of priests but if not let me know.
The Roman Catholic church closest to where I live has on its website and noticeboard that its priests are Father Derek McGuire and Father Kim Addison, and this is how I have seen Catholic priests names written before.
But following a post by Triple Tiara I looked at the website of the church St James Spanish Place, whose priests are The Reverend Christopher Colven, The Reverend Nicholas Kavanagh, and The Reverend David Irwin. Is the difference personal preference or does it mean something ?
It's more a question of register: The Reverend X is the official style of all priests, many of whom happen to prefer to be called Fr X in person. Letters should most properly be addressed to the Rev'd X, for example, rather than Fr. X. 'Fathering' priests (as it were) is indeed a relatively late development - well into the C18th clergymen were still called Rev'd Mr (master) X, &c.
Revd Mr was frequently used of RC clerics, both in Ireland and in Canada during Victorian days (cf. the Lt Governor's letter to "The Reverend Michael Power" on learning of his election to the See of Toronto), and at least until the accession of Edward VII. When at Trinity College Dublin, a slightly precious undergraduate (pince nez and pocket watch etc) now a canon of a place I will keep to myself, would carefully distinguish between RC diocesan clergy, whom he addressed as Mr, and members of religious orders, who got Fr.
Currently, in English Canada, Revd Mr is commonly used of perpetual deacons.
Older editions of our bureaucratic publication "The Canadian Style" used The Rev. AB for all clergy of all religions, excepting dignitaries, a long list of which was attached.
Apologies for prolonging tangent.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
I understand that at Ushaw College, Durham (the north-east England seminary for training RC priests), at least in the 1960s and very possibly until its closure only a few years ago, priests on the staff were addressed as 'Sir', not 'Father'. Unlike in the Anglo-catholic seminary only a few miles down the road.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
since we moved into the present building, the flags have been at the back.
By which I understand you to mean, right at the entrance. Back, front, east end, west end, narthex, head of the nave. Sigh, there just isn't a good place for 'em, is there?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
since we moved into the present building, the flags have been at the back.
By which I understand you to mean, right at the entrance. Back, front, east end, west end, narthex, head of the nave. Sigh, there just isn't a good place for 'em, is there?
The under-stairs cupboard would be my choice. :/
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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