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Source: (consider it) Thread: Miscellaneous questions of a liturgical nature
Enoch
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I see what you mean about sounding Russian.

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Barefoot Friar

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Anyone know where one can get a copy of the Eucharistic liturgy used at the most recent ACNA College of Bishops gathering? As I understand it, it is a non-finalized version of what will be in the new ACNA BCP. PD, you usually know such things... any leads?

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malik3000
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In most of the various editions of the Book of Common Prayer there is, at the end of the Communion/Eucharist liturgy a brief form for consecration if either the consecrated Bread or Wine runs out. Has anyone ever seen this actually used? I know I haven't.

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
Anyone know where one can get a copy of the Eucharistic liturgy used at the most recent ACNA College of Bishops gathering? As I understand it, it is a non-finalized version of what will be in the new ACNA BCP. PD, you usually know such things... any leads?

Fortunately or unfortunately, I am not in the loop on that one.

PD

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
In most of the various editions of the Book of Common Prayer there is, at the end of the Communion/Eucharist liturgy a brief form for consecration if either the consecrated Bread or Wine runs out. Has anyone ever seen this actually used? I know I haven't.

Never seen it used in the English BCP or the TEC one (only ever having been to one TEC service) but IIRC I have seen it done in an ASB communion service. Quietly done with no fuss, at the point where it became clear that the elements were going to run out- I think the priest handed over the bread to someone else to distribute (the wine being distributed by someone else already) while he consecrated more, but it was years ago and I didn't have a very good view of it.
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venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
In most of the various editions of the Book of Common Prayer there is, at the end of the Communion/Eucharist liturgy a brief form for consecration if either the consecrated Bread or Wine runs out. Has anyone ever seen this actually used? I know I haven't.

Yes. It regularly happened in the church I attended, which followed the ASB Rite B and did not have reservation.

Writing to the vicar about another issue, I just mentioned that I didn't understand this and it might well be confusing for others. He never mentioned it to me, but it never happened again.

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Barefoot Friar

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quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
In most of the various editions of the Book of Common Prayer there is, at the end of the Communion/Eucharist liturgy a brief form for consecration if either the consecrated Bread or Wine runs out. Has anyone ever seen this actually used? I know I haven't.

I used it myself just a week ago. It was at a service on the last night of summer camp. I had enough bread, but I misjudged the amount of wine that was needed. It was quiet and sort of behind the scenes; I doubt anyone but the servers noticed.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
In most of the various editions of the Book of Common Prayer there is, at the end of the Communion/Eucharist liturgy a brief form for consecration if either the consecrated Bread or Wine runs out. Has anyone ever seen this actually used? I know I haven't.

I used it myself just a week ago. It was at a service on the last night of summer camp. I had enough bread, but I misjudged the amount of wine that was needed. It was quiet and sort of behind the scenes; I doubt anyone but the servers noticed.
I've seen it used wrongly on many occasions. In our BCP, at least (USA 1979), the rubrics call for the Celebrant to do this at the altar. Seems like those are important words, and for a good reason, but I'd say more often than not it's been any handy priest at the credence table or some non-altar location. I should add that the wrongdoing was all at a parish other than the one I now belong to.

Seems basic to me that since the original consecration was done by the celebrant at the altar, so should any supplemental consecration be done by the celebrant at the altar. As per the rubrics.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
In most of the various editions of the Book of Common Prayer there is, at the end of the Communion/Eucharist liturgy a brief form for consecration if either the consecrated Bread or Wine runs out. Has anyone ever seen this actually used? I know I haven't.

Yes - many times.

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Barefoot Friar

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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
In most of the various editions of the Book of Common Prayer there is, at the end of the Communion/Eucharist liturgy a brief form for consecration if either the consecrated Bread or Wine runs out. Has anyone ever seen this actually used? I know I haven't.

I used it myself just a week ago. It was at a service on the last night of summer camp. I had enough bread, but I misjudged the amount of wine that was needed. It was quiet and sort of behind the scenes; I doubt anyone but the servers noticed.
I've seen it used wrongly on many occasions. In our BCP, at least (USA 1979), the rubrics call for the Celebrant to do this at the altar. Seems like those are important words, and for a good reason, but I'd say more often than not it's been any handy priest at the credence table or some non-altar location. I should add that the wrongdoing was all at a parish other than the one I now belong to.

Seems basic to me that since the original consecration was done by the celebrant at the altar, so should any supplemental consecration be done by the celebrant at the altar. As per the rubrics.

I was the celebrant, and it took place at the altar. What I meant about "behind the scenes" was that the servers were taking care of, well, serving, and I quietly stepped behind the altar, refilled the chalice, prayed the prayer, and went back to serving. Very unobtrusive, reverent, and to the point.

[ 07. July 2013, 18:29: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
I was the celebrant, and it took place at the altar. What I meant about "behind the scenes" was that the servers were taking care of, well, serving, and I quietly stepped behind the altar, refilled the chalice, prayed the prayer, and went back to serving. Very unobtrusive, reverent, and to the point.

Well done. Sorry to go on about how it's been done wrong in my experience, and I didn't mean to insinuate that you did it wrong as well! My bad.
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PD
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I have occasionally slipped up and consecrated too little of the elements. I was taught to consecrate both kinds when one slips up, so it is either a single host and sufficient wine, and sufficient hosts and the tiniest bit of wine in a spare chalice. I suspect this is old-fashioned High Church practice, as that was the stripe of the priests who trained me. The second consecration is done very unobstrusively at the altar.

In a lot of High Anglican parishes, the reserved sacrament is used as a back up for the host, or they communicate everyone from the Tabernacle, though that has technically been discouraged since the 1960s. For some reason, they do not seem to have any problem consecrating sufficient wine, though I have screwed up a couple of times.

When I have been working in Evangelical parishes, when we have seemed to be running short of bread we just make the bits of bread a bit smaller. I find folks tend to adjust how much of the Wine they take when they see one is running a little low.

PD

[ 08. July 2013, 03:50: Message edited by: PD ]

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Vade Mecum
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I have occasionally slipped up and consecrated too little of the elements. I was taught to consecrate both kinds when one slips up, so it is either a single host and sufficient wine, and sufficient hosts and the tiniest bit of wine in a spare chalice. I suspect this is old-fashioned High Church practice, as that was the stripe of the priests who trained me. The second consecration is done very unobstrusively at the altar.

In a lot of High Anglican parishes, the reserved sacrament is used as a back up for the host, or they communicate everyone from the Tabernacle, though that has technically been discouraged since the 1960s. For some reason, they do not seem to have any problem consecrating sufficient wine, though I have screwed up a couple of times.

When I have been working in Evangelical parishes, when we have seemed to be running short of bread we just make the bits of bread a bit smaller. I find folks tend to adjust how much of the Wine they take when they see one is running a little low.

PD

I think the reason one runs out of wine less often is that it's much easier to control how much anyone 'gets' - I've been told (via the unobtrusive liturgical whisper™) to be sparing with it when there are more than expected. Even so, I suspect were we to run out, we'd simply communicate the remainder in one kind: I have never seen a supplementary consecration.

And as you say, the reserved host is usually sufficient to cover any extra congregants. Besides which, I imagine most priests are quite good at eyeing up the congregation (as it were) and estimating numbers. Must be a special charism.

More common is having too much of the Precious Blood left over, which sometimes calls for another Unobtrusive Liturgical Whisper to summon a server with a stronger liver than Father's...

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FCB

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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I have occasionally slipped up and consecrated too little of the elements. I was taught to consecrate both kinds when one slips up, so it is either a single host and sufficient wine, and sufficient hosts and the tiniest bit of wine in a spare chalice. I suspect this is old-fashioned High Church practice, as that was the stripe of the priests who trained me.

In the RC Code of Canon Law, canon 927 says, "It is absolutely forbidden, even in extreme urgent necessity, to consecrate one matter without the other or even both outside the eucharistic celebration."

To my knowledge, supplementary consecration is unknown in an RC context. The first part clearly forbids consecrating only one species without the other, and the clause "outside the eucharistic celebration" is usually interpreted to mean that one could not simply say a consecratory formula over bread and wine but would have to celebrate an entire new Mass.

So, in practice, if the cup runs out (a not uncommon occurrence), people simply receive in one kind. If the hosts run out, more are fetched from the tabernacle. If the reserved sacrament runs out, people would be encouraged to make a spiritual communion.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
So, in practice, if the cup runs out (a not uncommon occurrence), people simply receive in one kind. If the hosts run out, more are fetched from the tabernacle. If the reserved sacrament runs out, people would be encouraged to make a spiritual communion.

Here's a link that injects a little humor into the above discussion.

I have been at RC masses where the wine has run out, and the remaining communicants were merely given bread.

I have also been at RC masses where it was clear that the bread was running short, and so the remaining pieces were divided so that there would be enough.

But, alas, I have also been at RC masses where additional bread was consecrated -- illicitly, it would seem.

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Ceremoniar
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Originally posted by FCB:
But, alas, I have also been at RC masses where additional bread was consecrated -- illicitly, it would seem.

I would go further and suggest that such an event--which in my many years of witnessing RC liturgical aberrations, I have never heard of, let alone witnessed--would not only be illicit, but invalid. Such a move would not just be irregular; it falls outside the pale of RC theology.

As mentioned above, canon law makes clear that such is expressly forbidden, even in an emergency, but I would also suggest that Church teaching on the sacrificial nature of the Mass renders such a bizarre attempt invalid.

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Angloid
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Does anybody know what justification C of E liturgists (and presumably TEC ones etc) give for this practice?

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Liturgylover
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Apparently consecration of further supplies of the sacrament by contact was accepted practice by the 10th century, and was only outlawed in the Western Church in yhe 13th century before its re-introducton - this time using a formula - in the Scottish 1637 book, and 1662.
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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
Apparently consecration of further supplies of the sacrament by contact was accepted practice by the 10th century, and was only outlawed in the Western Church in yhe 13th century before its re-introducton - this time using a formula - in the Scottish 1637 book, and 1662.

Fascinating. Could you cite a source for this?

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Carys

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quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
Besides which, I imagine most priests are quite good at eyeing up the congregation (as it were) and estimating numbers. Must be a special charism.

IME it's one which belongs to the servers possibly with help from the sidesfolk. Vergers guess in advance...

Carys

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Liturgylover
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
Apparently consecration of further supplies of the sacrament by contact was accepted practice by the 10th century, and was only outlawed in the Western Church in yhe 13th century before its re-introducton - this time using a formula - in the Scottish 1637 book, and 1662.

Fascinating. Could you cite a source for this?
Sorry, my second paragraph somehow got chopped. The source is Paul Bradshaw's A Companion to Common Worship (2001). He also explains that the 1968 Liturgical Commission considered this matter and agreed that the supplementary consecration could take place before the exhaustion of the original supplies on the basis that these elements belong to the same context as the original ones.
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Enoch
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As far as the CofE is concerned, this is covered by specific instructions in the BCP and on p296 in CW. It is infrequent but not all that unusual.

That other ecclesial communities might have different practices, or even that our ancestors might have done in the C10, is interesting, but has no bearing on whether we should or should not follow our own disciplines.

The notion of just administering one element because the other had run out, would seem to this member of the CofE very odd. Since the Reformation, the CofE has been resolutely utraquist. There was a lot of grumbling when this was temporarily suspended during the threatened but fortunately illusory swine 'flu epidemic.

What is a 'spiritual communion'? I've not encountered that phrase, and suspect it may be alien to our theology.

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
That other ecclesial communities might have different practices, or even that our ancestors might have done in the C10, is interesting, but has no bearing on whether we should or should not follow our own disciplines.

Enoch the tone of this paragraph is rather unnecessarily rebarbative. I asked for a source because I'd not heard of such a practice that early and was (and remain) interested. Furthermore, this isn't an Anglican thread and so those of us outside your communion who are interested in your peculiar practices are quite within our rights to ask questions about them.

FWIW the practice seems to me to be a perfectly natural development in a community that has, historically, stressed the memorialist nature of the Eucharistic action and the centrality of the act of Holy Communion. I will ask Paul Bradshaw for his source of the C10 praxis, however.

quote:
The notion of just administering one element because the other had run out, would seem to this member of the CofE very odd. Since the Reformation, the CofE has been resolutely utraquist. There was a lot of grumbling when this was temporarily suspended during the threatened but fortunately illusory swine 'flu epidemic.
Does this utraquist position reject the doctrine of concomitance outight or merely favour the position of reception under both kinds? If, during the swine 'flu panic, people were only able to receive under one kind, was there a widespread feeling that they weren't receiving 'the whole Christ', that their communion was, in some way, impaired? It was certainly an attitude expressed by a number of our people, who had so grown accustomed to communion under both kinds that they expressed the view that they didn't feel they'd received communion fully.

quote:
What is a 'spiritual communion'? I've not encountered that phrase, and suspect it may be alien to our theology.
It is the notion that if, for some reason, one may be unable to receive Holy Communion, one should, nevertheless, make a conscious mental effort to unite oneself to Christ in the Blessèd Sacrament. Typically it is accompanied by a prayerful expression of intent, such as this:

quote:
My Jesus, I believe that You are present in the Most Holy Sacrament.
I love You above all things, and I desire to receive You into my soul.
Since I cannot at this moment receive You sacramentally,
come at least spiritually into my heart.
I embrace You as if You were already there and unite myself wholly to You.
Never permit me to be separated from You.



[ 09. July 2013, 08:44: Message edited by: Trisagion ]

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
...
What is a 'spiritual communion'? I've not encountered that phrase, and suspect it may be alien to our theology.

Nope. Rubric to BCP Communion of the Sick:
quote:

But if a man, either by reason of extremity of sickness, or for want of warning in due time to the Curate, or for lack of company to receive with him, or by any other just impediment, do not receive the Sacrament of Christ's Body and Blood: the Curate shall instruct him that if he do truly repent him of his sins, and stedfastly believe that Jesus Christ hath suffered death upon the Cross for him, and shed his Blood for his redemption, earnestly remembering the benefits he hath thereby, and giving him hearty thanks therefore; he doth eat and drink the Body and Blood of our Saviour Christ profitably to his soul's health, although he do not receive the Sacrament with his mouth.



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Liturgylover
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
I asked for a source because I'd not heard of such a practice that early and was (and remain) interested.

FWIW the practice seems to me to be a perfectly natural development in a community that has, historically, stressed the memorialist nature of the Eucharistic action and the centrality of the act of Holy Communion. I will ask Paul Bradshaw for his source of the C10 praxis, however.

Trisagion - You may be interested to read the description that Paul Bradshaw gives about this practice. I quote "Further supplies of the sacrament could be consecrated by contact, unconsecrated wine being added to consecrated wine, and unconsecrated bread being sprinkled with consecrated wine." I too was fascinated when I first read this.
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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
If, during the swine 'flu panic, people were only able to receive under one kind, was there a widespread feeling that they weren't receiving 'the whole Christ', that their communion was, in some way, impaired?

Not IME, or at least the PTB tried their best to assuage it. My parish was one where a zealous priest-in-charge suspended the cup, but language about concomitance is often part of the standard communion spiel in service leaflets here, and the indivisibility of the sacrament is stressed esp. for the comfort of those with the trials of alcoholism or coeliac disease.
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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
I asked for a source because I'd not heard of such a practice that early and was (and remain) interested.

FWIW the practice seems to me to be a perfectly natural development in a community that has, historically, stressed the memorialist nature of the Eucharistic action and the centrality of the act of Holy Communion. I will ask Paul Bradshaw for his source of the C10 praxis, however.

Trisagion - You may be interested to read the description that Paul Bradshaw gives about this practice. I quote "Further supplies of the sacrament could be consecrated by contact, unconsecrated wine being added to consecrated wine, and unconsecrated bread being sprinkled with consecrated wine." I too was fascinated when I first read this.
I'm guessing the mixing of similar liquids gives rise to the principle for the wine, while the operation on the bread by the consecrated bread is more by analogy than physical principle.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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I'm beginning to wonder what Jesus would have done at the Last Supper if the Apostles had been hungrier than he had planned for.

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Albertus
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If you use the mixed cup, is it permissible simply to further dilute the wine if it's running short?
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PD
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I don't honestly know, but I do know that the subjectcomes up in the chapter entitled 'Accidents' in one of the ceremonial manuals. My recollection is that if someone accidentally pours the MPB into the bottle one has to treat the lot of consecrated. The one time that happened here there was nothing for it but to put the lot down the piscina and rinse thoroughly!

However, we need to cross reference that with the rules concerning valid matter. I think they may not apply, as the only thing I remember of abut the chalice is that it must be

(1) Grape Wine, or unpasteurize grape juice.
(2) It should not diluted to the point where it ceases o be valid matter - which, IIRC, the mix has to be more than half wine.

In principle Anglicans accept the notion of spiritual communion, and I think belief in concommitence is general given that communion of the sick is widely administered in one kind. However, we are utraquist in the sense that, part from a few Anglo-Papalist eccentrics, we expect Communion to be given in both kinds at Mass, and feel something is not right when it is not.

PD

[ 09. July 2013, 19:55: Message edited by: PD ]

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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
If you use the mixed cup, is it permissible simply to further dilute the wine if it's running short?

I have encountered this in a "Spirit of Vatican II" Anglican parish - though, actually, they added wine rather than water.

I've also encountered supplementary consecration once, and only once, in my parish. Had I been MC that day, it would not have happened. Indeed, had the parish priest been in the building on that day it wouldn't have happened.

Dilution, to my mind, strikes me as icky rather than wrong. Supplementary consecration is liturgeogical (what is the actual word?) bullshit.

Thurible

[ 10. July 2013, 09:02: Message edited by: Thurible ]

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I'm beginning to wonder what Jesus would have done at the Last Supper if the Apostles had been hungrier than he had planned for.

Yeah, but he had a get out - c.f wedding at Cana; feeding of five thousand.
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Pomona
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Hope this is in the right place! Is there any good resource on the general churchmanship of various colours of clerical shirts within Anglicanism? As in, how x colour generally symbolises y churchmanship?

On a related note, is there any similar thing for the churchmanship of Anglican clergy as portrayed on TV and in films? This is all sparked by how Rev Paul Coates in Broadchurch didn't seem quite the type for black clerical shirts and black funeral vestments, at least IMO.

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leo
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# 1458

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Dunno - but blues are prots.

Mustard are fundy prots with bad taste.

Stripes are mad, fundy prots.

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Zacchaeus
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jade costable we had a thread on this a few months ago

http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=007772

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Dunno - but blues are prots.

Mustard are fundy prots with bad taste.

Stripes are mad, fundy prots.

[Big Grin]

Our lovely, firmly black-shirts-always parish priest used to be a hospital chaplain and wore blue then, as it was a bit more gentle. One of my friends had a sudden bereavement recently and for the funeral it was requested that people wear blue, white and silver. When said parish priest turned up for the funeral in his blue shirt, there was a bit of a shock!

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PD
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# 12436

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I am of the school that wears black neckband shirts and a 'round collar.' You used to guess the churchmanship from the suit or the lack of the same. I have always been a member of the fannels and tweed jacket brigade, and thus hopelessly middle of the road.

PD

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Stephen
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Has anyone come across white linen cloths being put on the Communion rail? I noticed it on a visit to Wimborne Minster some time back

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
Has anyone come across white linen cloths being put on the Communion rail? I noticed it on a visit to Wimborne Minster some time back

Yes. When receiving communion one puts their hands underneath the cloth.
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
Has anyone come across white linen cloths being put on the Communion rail? I noticed it on a visit to Wimborne Minster some time back

I've seen it in St. John Cantius (Roman Catholic) here in Chicago, for an Extraordinary Form Mass. It's a "houseling cloth."
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Stephen
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Thanks very much - interesting, especially as I think the Minster inclines to the evangelical side of the CofE.......

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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I've encountered a houseling cloth at the altar rail on at least one occasion - possibly more - at St Silas Kentish Town. Only time I've ever seen one outside of liturgical books and old illustrations.
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Angloid
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I think they were in use the first time I visited Walsingham. I didn't know what to do with my hands!

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Vade Mecum
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I've encountered a houseling cloth at the altar rail on at least one occasion - possibly more - at St Silas Kentish Town. Only time I've ever seen one outside of liturgical books and old illustrations.

I too noticed them at St Silas: which I found amusing, because the subdeacon was going about holding the paten under one's chin anyway...

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Jengie jon

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How very Presbyterian of them!

The covering with white cloth of where the people receive communion is quite a traditional practice among Presbyterians, see Crown Court. It could be at the communion table which extends down the church or as in the Crown Court along the pews. There may well still be URCs that practice it, there were in the mid 1990s.

Jengie

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Metapelagius
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
How very Presbyterian of them!

The covering with white cloth of where the people receive communion is quite a traditional practice among Presbyterians, see Crown Court. It could be at the communion table which extends down the church or as in the Crown Court along the pews. There may well still be URCs that practice it, there were in the mid 1990s.

Jengie

I am reliably informed that the practice continued at Windsor Place in Cardiff until about seven years ago when the lady who had been laundering and starching the things for many years decided that she had had enough. There were no volunteers to take the task on from her, alas. I think of it as a Presbyterian custom (like communion tokens) - as far as the other bit of the URC is concerned, was it ever to be found in any (ex-)congregationalist chapels?

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PD
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# 12436

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Houselling cloths were a hangover from the middle ages, and seem to have remained in use in quite a few places until at least the Commonwealth, and even into Hannoverian times in the Church of England. Then, even in the very traditional places, the dreaded utilitarianism took over and they disappeared. The Anglo-Catholics, and the British Museum Religion tendancies both had a go at reviving them, but it did not take.

I am familiar with the Presbyterian version thereof being spread across the tops of the pews, but I have never heard of them being used in the ex-Congregationalist side of the URC.

PD

[ 20. July 2013, 04:12: Message edited by: PD ]

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Adeodatus
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There's something that's puzzled me for a long time, and which for some reason now is really bugging me.

Many of the Common Worship Collects end with the formula, "through Jesus Christ our Lord, who is alive and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit ...".

Now, I may be a mile off here, but surely in orthodox theology it's primarily the Father, not the Spirit, who is the ground of unity within the Trinity. And I know also the phrase appears in the 1662 Book and in virtually every book since, but what does it mean?

I must admit, I'm so convinced it's actually theologically incorrect, if I'm presiding and the people don't have the text in front of them, I usually elide it to "who is alive and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God ...".

But what does it mean, and why is it there? (Acknowledging that this one might have to go to Purgatory!)

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Gottschalk
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There's something that's puzzled me for a long time, and which for some reason now is really bugging me.

Many of the Common Worship Collects end with the formula, "through Jesus Christ our Lord, who is alive and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit ...".

Now, I may be a mile off here, but surely in orthodox theology it's primarily the Father, not the Spirit, who is the ground of unity within the Trinity. And I know also the phrase appears in the 1662 Book and in virtually every book since, but what does it mean?

I must admit, I'm so convinced it's actually theologically incorrect, if I'm presiding and the people don't have the text in front of them, I usually elide it to "who is alive and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God ...".

But what does it mean, and why is it there? (Acknowledging that this one might have to go to Purgatory!)

...Per Dominum nostrum Jesum Christum Filium tuum, qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritus Sancti, Deus: per omnia saecula saeculorum.

Indeed it is in the unity of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Ghost is the Love of the Father and the Son. Also, the formula places the Mediation of Christ in the context of the Holy Trinity: the Church offers the prayers to the Father through Christ, in the Holy Ghost. The ancient doxologies do have : Glory to the Father through Christ in the Holy Ghost. Basil, unless I am mistaken, refers to that ancient, even primitive, formulation, in the first chapters of his treatise on the Holy Ghost.

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by Gottschalk:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There's something that's puzzled me for a long time, and which for some reason now is really bugging me.

Many of the Common Worship Collects end with the formula, "through Jesus Christ our Lord, who is alive and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit ...".

Now, I may be a mile off here, but surely in orthodox theology it's primarily the Father, not the Spirit, who is the ground of unity within the Trinity. And I know also the phrase appears in the 1662 Book and in virtually every book since, but what does it mean?

I must admit, I'm so convinced it's actually theologically incorrect, if I'm presiding and the people don't have the text in front of them, I usually elide it to "who is alive and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God ...".

But what does it mean, and why is it there? (Acknowledging that this one might have to go to Purgatory!)

...Per Dominum nostrum Jesum Christum Filium tuum, qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritus Sancti, Deus: per omnia saecula saeculorum.

Indeed it is in the unity of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Ghost is the Love of the Father and the Son. Also, the formula places the Mediation of Christ in the context of the Holy Trinity: the Church offers the prayers to the Father through Christ, in the Holy Ghost. The ancient doxologies do have : Glory to the Father through Christ in the Holy Ghost. Basil, unless I am mistaken, refers to that ancient, even primitive, formulation, in the first chapters of his treatise on the Holy Ghost.

Here:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3203.htm

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