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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Miscellaneous questions of a liturgical nature
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Our usual practice FWIW is for our organist, once she's received Communion, to tweedle gently whilst the rest of our little congo come and go to and from the altar. Once all, or most, have received, she begins to play the Communion hymn, which then covers the ablutions - but with which most people are free to join in, if they wish.
If we've no organist e.g. during the summer holidays, and we're using CDs via our laptop PC, we may have no music at all during Communion, or, if I've found summat suitable, some quiet and reflective piece before going to the hymn.
Works for us, any road...
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
If I can make a rare boast about post-conciliar Catholic music, it's our communion songs. A great repetoire has developed of songs about communion with simple refrains and more developed verses.
Hmm. I'm not sure to which songs you are referring. I would not boast over the communion songs I've endured over the past 20 years. Maybe it's a matter of taste? What's wrong with the choir singing the communion verse and a few other things giving the people time to pray?
Agreed. I really dislike being ordered to sing as I march up to the rail. I much prefer to hear a soft organ piece/improvisation, a fitting motet, or silence.
And I'm another who doesn't think much of contemporary RC communion songs. A lot of going on about bread and cup, a little bit about Jesus, and usually nothing at all about the eucharistic mystery. Worst offender : Bernadette Farrell's "Bread for the World," which says plenty about her politics but nothing about Communion.
[ 27. August 2013, 17:28: Message edited by: Fr Weber ]
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I really dislike being ordered to sing as I march up to the rail.
Silly Fr Weber! Catholics don't sing. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Ordered to sing? its compulsory?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Oh, I can name Catholic churches where people sing. Every single one of them is a 'liturgical destination' church. Drop into your rank-and-file parish church or cathedral, and it's cantica nada.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Oh, I can name Catholic churches where people sing. Every single one of them is a 'liturgical destination' church. Drop into your rank-and-file parish church or cathedral, and it's cantica nada.
What's a 'liturgical destination' church? I've not encountered that term before.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Oh, I can name Catholic churches where people sing. Every single one of them is a 'liturgical destination' church. Drop into your rank-and-file parish church or cathedral, and it's cantica nada.
What's a 'liturgical destination' church? I've not encountered that term before.
It's pretty much what it sounds like--a church that draws a crowd because of the liturgy they offer. People tend to travel farther to go there, or to venture into neighborhoods into which they would not normally venture.
In Chicago, Church of the Ascension would be an example. Saint Clement's in Philadelphia would be another. In Catholic terms, the televised EWTN chapel would be yet another, drawing visitors from all over the world. My own little city has one church designated for the 1962 missal, and draws a crowd of people who eschew their more convenient parish churches for liturgical reasons.
Because these churches draw people who are more concerned than the average person about liturgics, there is naturally going to be more congregational participation when it is called for, and this includes hymn-singing.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
It's pretty much what it sounds like--a church that draws a crowd because of the liturgy they offer. People tend to travel farther to go there, or to venture into neighborhoods into which they would not normally venture.
In Chicago, Church of the Ascension would be an example. Saint Clement's in Philadelphia would be another. In Catholic terms, the televised EWTN chapel would be yet another, drawing visitors from all over the world. My own little city has one church designated for the 1962 missal, and draws a crowd of people who eschew their more convenient parish churches for liturgical reasons.
Because these churches draw people who are more concerned than the average person about liturgics, there is naturally going to be more congregational participation when it is called for, and this includes hymn-singing.
Sorry. For us thicko foreigners, what does EWTN stand for?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Eternal Word Television Network -- but most people know it as "that Catholic channel".
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Sorry! I had thought they took over the world by now. Allow me to Anglicize my prior post:
quote:
It's pretty much what it sounds like--a church that draws a crowd because of the liturgy they offer. People tend to travel farther to go there, or to venture into neighborhoods into which they would not normally venture.
St. Mary's Bourne Street would be an example. All Saints Margaret Street would be another. In Catholic terms, Brompton Oratory would be yet another. My own little city has one church designated for the 1962 missal, and draws a crowd of people who eschew their more convenient parish churches for liturgical reasons.
Because these churches draw people who are more concerned than the average person about liturgics, there is naturally going to be more congregational participation when it is called for, and this includes hymn-singing.
Hopefully it makes sense now!
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Just come across a picture of + Eric Treacy after a wedding wearing a white stole over choir dress. Am I right in thinking that this is rather odd? I suppose it'd the equivalent of a priest's cassock, surplice, and stole, but I think it's the stole being worn over the chimere that makes it look strange.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Quite standard gear for a low-church bishop in the 1960s. I don't like the look either, but ++Donald Coggan used to dress like this when he was Bishop of Bradford.
I'll forgive +Eric any number of liturgical solecisms for his railway photography.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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ST
Shipmate
# 14600
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
Are any shipmates aware of English precedents for fixed bishops' seats in parish churches? Cram's architectural lineage can be traced to George Frederick Bodley via Bodley's pupil Henry Vaughn, but I do not recall seeing such seats in illustrations of Bodley's churches.
Sorry to go back a couple of pages.
St Martin's, Liskeard, has a massive vicar's stall complete with a mitre on it (from what I remember), which is clearly a bishop's cathedra in all but name. I'm not aware of any previous vicar having been consecrated.
Also, All Saints Reading has a bishop's seat in the sedilia, on the north side of the chancel, along with two seats for his chaplains (emblems painted above of, if I remember correctly, crossed keys, mitre, and crozier). The south side, as you might expect, has seats for celebrant, deacon, and subdeacon. Apart from the celebrant's seat in the sedilia, they are generally just used by the altar party.
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Formerly nowsouthwest - but moved!
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jlav12
Apprentice
# 17148
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Posted
I think I've asked a similar question but I don't remember a clear answer...
What is TEC's position on using other Anglican (Communion) liturgies? Would it be acceptable to use a "Service of the Word" (from either CW or the C of I's BCP) sort of liturgy for an evening service geared towards the younger crowd?
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlav12:
I think I've asked a similar question but I don't remember a clear answer...
What is TEC's position on using other Anglican (Communion) liturgies? Would it be acceptable to use a "Service of the Word" (from either CW or the C of I's BCP) sort of liturgy for an evening service geared towards the younger crowd?
AFAIK, the diocesan Bishop has the authority to authorize such use, and would need to do so.
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scuffleball
Shipmate
# 16480
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Posted
What on earth does the hymn "Teach me, my God and King" by George Herbert mean? Google is not my friend.
Instinctively it sounds like something to do with the Eucharist, but I have heard it sung at Evensong or as a Gradual.
Also, it seems to be to do with the Christian life, but it seems to put an unhealthy emphasis on process, which can cause stagnation.
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ken: I thought it was called Taize?
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Also, it seems to be to do with the Christian life, but it seems to put an unhealthy emphasis on process, which can cause stagnation.
Can you please explain this?
I don't see the connection with the eucharist, except that all life is connected with it in some way. ISTM that the first verse explains all the rest. 'In all things thee to see'
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Just come across a picture of + Eric Treacy after a wedding wearing a white stole over choir dress. Am I right in thinking that this is rather odd? I suppose it'd the equivalent of a priest's cassock, surplice, and stole, but I think it's the stole being worn over the chimere that makes it look strange.
No, a stole worn over a scarlet chimere is quite commonly seen on bishops throughout the Anglican Communion. Such a rig can also be used as a kind of low church substitute for a cope/chasuble and mitre.
In the TEC/USA, the stole over the red chimere is always seen at the consecration of bishops. These days, the common use is to see three or four co-consecrators in cope and mitre, the ordained new bishop in chasuble and mitre, and all the many assisting bishops in that combination of rochet, scarlet chimere and stole.
*
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Surely process is the opposite of stagnation? The hymn strikes me as singularly obvious, as Miss Prism would say.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Scuffleball
Problems understanding Teach me, my God and King ? I'm coming over all Victor Meldrew...
Verse 1: - Creation, see God in all of it, and to have at the forefront of one's mind that one should perform any task as if it were for god.
Verse 2: - simply imagery, saying that we can become self-absorbed or, if we choose, look beyond self to see the things of heaven.
Verse 3: - salvation is possible/available to all through the sacrifice of Our Lord - sins can be forgiven and a new beginning made.
Verse 4: - However menial, boring, repetitive or banal something may seem, if we do it for God, then it is well done - in other words, it has meaning by virtue of being for something larger.
Verse 5: - Herbert was writing when there was a general obsession with alchemy, particularly with the notion of the philosophers' stone which, it was believed, would be something so magical it would be able to turn base metals to precious (specifically lead to gold). What Herbert is saying is that it is God who is the truly magical since everything touched by God is made precious by Him.
OK, OK - very simplistic, but that is the gist.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I would be even more fond of the hymn if I thought that George Herbert himself ever swept any rooms. I imagine he got a girl in from the village to do so.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I would be even more fond of the hymn if I thought that George Herbert himself ever swept any rooms. I imagine he got a girl in from the village to do so.
I would hope that Herbert took the opportunity to provide employment, insofar as it lay within his power, for his parishoners who migth otherwise lack it. But here's a passage from Walton's life of him (in the public domain), on the subject of his attituide towards getting his hands dirty:
quote:
In another walk to Salisbury, he saw a poor man with a poorer horse, that was fallen under his load: they were both in distress, and needed present help; which Mr. Herbert perceiving, put off his canonical coat, and helped the poor man to unload, and after to load, his horse. The poor man blessed him for it, and he blessed the poor man; and was so like the Good Samaritan, that he gave him money to refresh both himself and his horse; and told him, "That if he loved himself he should be merciful to his beast." Thus he left the poor man; and at his coming to his musical friends at Salisbury, they began to wonder that Mr. George Herbert, which used to be so trim and clean, came into that company so soiled and discomposed: but he told them the occasion. And when one of the company told him, "He had disparaged himself by so dirty an employment," his answer was, "That the thought of what he had done would prove music to him at midnight; and that the omission of it would have upbraided and made discord in his conscience, whensoever he should pass by that place: for if I be bound to pray for all that be in distress, I am sure that I am bound, so far as it is in my power, to practice what I pray for. And though I do not wish for the like occasion every day, yet let me tell you, I wou1d not willingly pass one day of my life without comforting a sad soul, or shewing mercy; and I praise God for this occasion. And now let’s tune our instruments."
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Thank you, Albertus. I can put my hermeneutic of suspicion at rest. That's a lovely story and I vaguely remember it.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I was given an old-school last rites set for a wedding present by an antiques dealer, and I was wondering how it all works. It includes a candlestick/crucifix combo with a little basin on the front, a scoop like jobber, two patens, and a little brush.
[ 04. October 2013, 20:42: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Zach, I've been reading up on the "old" last rites, and the answer is surprisingly unclear. It seems the crucifix should be removable, so that it can be handed to the bedridden to be reverenced with a kiss at the beginning of the rite. The brush is for sprinkling with holy water, and the scooper thing seems to be for stowing water, mostly for the lavabo. The two patens are a mystery. I did find reference to the priest cleansing his fingers after touching the host by wiping them on unconsecrated bread. Perhaps that bread goes on the other paten. Now, if you visit the infirm on horseback, you must take care that the holy sacrament is securely fastened around your neck in a burse.
I'm on my cell now, which doesn't link too well, but this info comes from the Sancta Missa website, which offers a ton of information on 1962 missal matters.
[ 05. October 2013, 20:46: Message edited by: Olaf ]
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
This afternoon while perusing YouTube I stumbled across some videos of the 2012 Palm Sunday procession for St. James Anglican Church in Vancouver, B.C.. It made me wonder, have any of you been part of a procession in which bystanders spontaneously joined in and followed along into the church building? Just curious.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Zach, I've been reading up on the "old" last rites, and the answer is surprisingly unclear. It seems the crucifix should be removable, so that it can be handed to the bedridden to be reverenced with a kiss at the beginning of the rite. The brush is for sprinkling with holy water, and the scooper thing seems to be for stowing water, mostly for the lavabo. The two patens are a mystery. I did find reference to the priest cleansing his fingers after touching the host by wiping them on unconsecrated bread. Perhaps that bread goes on the other paten. Now, if you visit the infirm on horseback, you must take care that the holy sacrament is securely fastened around your neck in a burse.
I'm on my cell now, which doesn't link too well, but this info comes from the Sancta Missa website, which offers a ton of information on 1962 missal matters.
Thanks! The crucifix does detach from the candlestick. Incidentally, this looks like a very similar model to the one I got, though it doesn't have the bottle or linens.
Here's another one-- seems to have been a common make!
[ 06. October 2013, 02:14: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
This afternoon while perusing YouTube I stumbled across some videos of the 2012 Palm Sunday procession for St. James Anglican Church in Vancouver, B.C.. It made me wonder, have any of you been part of a procession in which bystanders spontaneously joined in and followed along into the church building? Just curious.
In the late 1990s, I visited a friend in NYC, who belonged to St. Michael's Episcopal Church at 99th and Amsterdam Avenue. On Michaelmas Eve they had a solemn procession around the neighborhood, followed by Evensong in the church. I got to serve as a torchbearer. Part of our route was on Broadway between 99th and 96th, I think. We passed eye-rolling outdoor-seating diners and made a station in front of a cinema that was showing Warlock starring Julian Sands. A few people joined the procession and followed us into the church for Evensong. Celebrant for all this (as you need Celebrant, Deacon, and Subdeacon to make something solemn), was the Rev. Mary Michael Simpson, OSH, of the Order of St. Helena; she was their interim rector before Fr. George Brandt became rector.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
This afternoon while perusing YouTube I stumbled across some videos of the 2012 Palm Sunday procession for St. James Anglican Church in Vancouver, B.C.. It made me wonder, have any of you been part of a procession in which bystanders spontaneously joined in and followed along into the church building? Just curious.
Yes. When i was in Leeds, lots of the kids and some mothers followed on behind our Mary procession in May and the one held the Sunday after Corpus Christi. I remember an old lady at the back of church telling them to kneel doe 'in front of Jesus' as Solemn Benediction began at the end.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
At my childhood church we had a Palm Sunday Procession from the far end of the parish to the church, a distance of about a mile-and-a-half. The police stopped the traffic on one side of the road while we processed.
Full works: cross, lights, thurifer & boat-boy, verger with wand, parish priest in cope (and if cold cloak & Canterbury cap), robed choir, parish banner, Sunday School, Mothers' Union banner, congregation, all stewarded by the churchwardens with their wands. And between the parish banner and the Sunday School we had the DONKEY.
As you can imagine, this always attracted a crowd and many, especially younger children, followed us into church. And there were people who became regular members of the congregation through the procession.
In later years the donkey became rather tetchy and eventually we had to give him up - but we were joined instead by the band from the local Salvation Army citadel - which added greatly to the gaiety of life and we marched properly instead of what had up to that point been a rather shambolic ambling.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I think that the two 'patens' could be for balls of cotton wool which would be used for the anointing of the sick,one for those unused and one for those already used.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I think that the two 'patens' could be for balls of cotton wool which would be used for the anointing of the sick,one for those unused and one for those already used.
It's possible, assuming the holy sacrament was carried in a pix and placed on a corporal, as in the "old" mass.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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KevinL
Apprentice
# 12481
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Zach, I've been reading up on the "old" last rites, and the answer is surprisingly unclear. It seems the crucifix should be removable, so that it can be handed to the bedridden to be reverenced with a kiss at the beginning of the rite. The brush is for sprinkling with holy water, and the scooper thing seems to be for stowing water, mostly for the lavabo. The two patens are a mystery. I did find reference to the priest cleansing his fingers after touching the host by wiping them on unconsecrated bread. Perhaps that bread goes on the other paten. Now, if you visit the infirm on horseback, you must take care that the holy sacrament is securely fastened around your neck in a burse.
I'm on my cell now, which doesn't link too well, but this info comes from the Sancta Missa website, which offers a ton of information on 1962 missal matters.
Thanks! The crucifix does detach from the candlestick. Incidentally, this looks like a very similar model to the one I got, though it doesn't have the bottle or linens.
Here's another one-- seems to have been a common make!
I don't know so, but I don't think the two plates are patens in the strict sense, but one is for the cotton balls and one is for the bread the priest uses to clean his fingers. At least that is how it is shown
here. They are sedevacantists, I believe, but that shouldn't affect the sick call setup.
Posts: 35 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Mar 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Ah, very useful, Kevin! That explains the two plates. If we assume that the little basin attached to the candlestick was for the holy water, what's the handled cup for?
Holy water makes more sense for the brush. I had imagined it was for applying the holy oil, but it doesn't feel oily, as it probably would if it has been used as such even after decades of storage I suppose.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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KevinL
Apprentice
# 12481
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Ah, very useful, Kevin! That explains the two plates. If we assume that the little basin attached to the candlestick was for the holy water, what's the handled cup for?
Holy water makes more sense for the brush. I had imagined it was for applying the holy oil, but it doesn't feel oily, as it probably would if it has been used as such even after decades of storage I suppose.
brush is definitely for holy water. I remember an episode of Cadfael in which various people in attendance sprinkle a body with holy water using a brush. it would seem that the shell-like bowl at the base of the cross could be for holy water, and the other for rinsing the fingers. fisheaters has this rite for extreme unction.
Posts: 35 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Mar 2007
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KevinL
Apprentice
# 12481
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by KevinL:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Ah, very useful, Kevin! That explains the two plates. If we assume that the little basin attached to the candlestick was for the holy water, what's the handled cup for?
Holy water makes more sense for the brush. I had imagined it was for applying the holy oil, but it doesn't feel oily, as it probably would if it has been used as such even after decades of storage I suppose.
brush is definitely for holy water. I remember an episode of Cadfael in which various people in attendance sprinkle a body with holy water using a brush. it would seem that the shell-like bowl at the base of the cross could be for holy water, and the other for rinsing the fingers. fisheaters has this rite for extreme unction.
this ad for a "sick call cup" includes a portion of the text from the accompanying instructions that seems to indicate that the cup was used for ablutions or to give the dying person the ablution water (ick if it is for the holy oil, and why? if it is from purifying the communion vessels). I also remember reading somewhere that if the person was very sick, a drop of the MPB or a tiny particle of the Body could be placed in their mouth and "chased" with a sip/spoonfull of water to help them swallow.
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Choirboi
Shipmate
# 9222
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Posted
When serving mass, I was taught years ago that the server sets up the altar in cassock and dons the surplice just before lighting the candles. He then does not remove it until after putting out the candles.
We do it this way at high mass, but a debate has arisen because the other low mass servers in my present parish don't don the surplice until just before the mass actually starts, and they remove it before putting out the candles. I'm having trouble finding this rule in written form, and also the justification thereof. Please point me in the right direction.
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Posts: 136 | From: Philadelphia, PA | Registered: Mar 2005
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
As an Anglican youth, I was taught not to put the surplice on until after the candles were lighted, and remove it before extinguishing the candles. Occasionally this rule was bent, which was not a big deal, but most parishes seemed to follow it, except the most advanced Anglo-Catholic ones, which seemed to use the Roman method of always wearing the surplice at all times.
No explanation was ever really provided as a youth, and I suspect that its origin was merely a practical one, such as keeping wax or soot off the pristine surplices. When I became an RC, no one seemed to have heard of the practice, as they seemed surprised when I instinctively continued to do so.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
We put surplices on before lighting candles. The candle-lighting seems to be the first item in the ritual, even though it's clearly before the liturgy and not a part of the Mass proper.
We have cassocks on for anything before that, such as walking through or rehearsing something out of the ordinary (solemn procession, new deacon, etc.).
On Wednesday evenings, I don't always don a cassock for setting up the sanctuary before I open the church doors. Once there are (or could be) any people in the church besides me, I have cassock on.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Choirboi
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# 9222
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboi:
When serving mass, I was taught years ago that the server sets up the altar in cassock and dons the surplice just before lighting the candles. He then does not remove it until after putting out the candles.thereof.
Correct - whether surplice, albe or cotta.
Thanks, Leo, but do you know of anywhere this is actually written? Or the exact reason?
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Like as the hart desireth the waterbrooks, so longeth my soul after Thee, O God.
Posts: 136 | From: Philadelphia, PA | Registered: Mar 2005
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
Ritual Notes p. 153 quote:
ACOLYTES
Some little time before Mass is due to begin they vest in cassock and surplice, and light the altar candles and their own, They then assist the deacon and subdeacon to vest.
But no reason is given.
Far more important, I think, is that candles should be lit well before the service begins so as not to distract the worshippers - I remember last minute problems with small acolytes reaching tall candles or one of the big six going out before some of the other five have been lit.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
How long is "some little time" and "well before". Our usual rule is 10 minutes or so. And servers/acolytes wear alb and all work in the sanctuary is done after vesting. Assistants wear cassock and surplice.
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Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
Our candles are lit by a churchwarden (female) usually in a dress, jacket and court shoes.
The servers are all children so "elf 'n' safetee" decree they can't light candles...
They all wear cassock albs (ghastly things) so the smallest two look like monochrome Mickey-Mouse lookalikes from Fantasia.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
As a person who lit candles as a child/teenager and is now responsible for H&S, I'm sure a risk assessment wouldn't necessarily rule out sensible children lighting candles
Carys
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Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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AndyB
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# 10186
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Posted
"Elf and safety" is very much abused. Risk Assessments, when done correctly, are intended to mitigate against risk for a particular activity - I think that the presumption is that an activity will take place unless it cannot be done safely, or the precautions are disproportionate.
In the case of "getting children to light candles", I think it ought be enough to identify suitably responsible children and have an adult supervise at an appropriate distance - even across the chancel, although it may be necessary in some cases to supervise from rather close by.
Advent candles are a case in point. When the minister "helps" a child light the candle, often by controlling the taper or match on its way to the candle, that is effectively dynamic risk assessment - the difference now is that a common and predictable risky activity should be assessed on paper in advance.
[ 17. October 2013, 11:09: Message edited by: AndyB ]
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I speak as URC, my attitude would be, you let children on a rota light candles, three or four at a time, partly to make sure they are adequately supervised. At the first sign of any silliness with fire any child involved with it is given a good telling off and immediately suspended from the rota for the next rotation.
I suspect that within a year or after one or two incidents, which ever takes less time, the children will become self policing and the most careful lighters of candles you could wish for, far better than most adults.
Jengie
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I speak as URC, my attitude would be, you let children on a rota light candles, three or four at a time, partly to make sure they are adequately supervised. At the first sign of any silliness with fire any child involved with it is given a good telling off and immediately suspended from the rota for the next rotation.
I suspect that within a year or after one or two incidents, which ever takes less time, the children will become self policing and the most careful lighters of candles you could wish for, far better than most adults.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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