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Source: (consider it) Thread: Miscellaneous questions of a liturgical nature
Gwalchmai
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I have always thought Christingle services have the potential to be a health and safety nighmare. Children milling round with lighted candles precariously stuck in an orange and surrounded by four sharp sticks.
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Jengie jon

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Some do it using light sticks rather than candles for that reason.

Jengie

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BroJames
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
I have always thought Christingle services have the potential to be a health and safety nighmare. Children milling round with lighted candles precariously stuck in an orange and surrounded by four sharp sticks.

We arrange it so that their candles are not lit until they stop milling around, and they are not expected to move again until their candles have been blown out.
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Carys

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Our Chnstngle same has its own risk assessment for this reason and uses cocktail sticks with one blunt end. Risk Assessments mean that you're considered potential problems & mitigated them

Carys

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Barefoot Friar

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I have recently become aware of the need in my parish for gluten-free hosts. I have some idea of how to handle them (i.e., if the faintest crumb of gluten falls on them, they are no longer gluten-free, etc.). I want to make sure my paten, which is gold-plated, is properly clean. How best to go about this?

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Zach82
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My parish has a separate paten for the gluten free wafers, so that there is no danger of cross contamination.

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LostinChelsea
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I only have one person who needs a gluten-free wafer (serious celiac, not just a picky eater). What I do is have the Altar Guild put one gluten-free rice wafer in a Pyx, which I administer by turning the Pyx over into the person's hand. The Altar Guild knows to fill the Pyx before handling the wheat wafers. We have a chalice and an intinction chalice, so there's no danger of the person receiving from a vessel that has had wheat wafers dipped into it (and yes, the person is that sensitive!).

Note: Episcopal Church, so the rice wafer is possible in this tradition. There are wheaten low-gluten wafers, but some rare people are sensitive to even that level of gluten.

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gog
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quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
I have recently become aware of the need in my parish for gluten-free hosts. I have some idea of how to handle them (i.e., if the faintest crumb of gluten falls on them, they are no longer gluten-free, etc.). I want to make sure my paten, which is gold-plated, is properly clean. How best to go about this?

There is also the idea to move everyone to gluten-free, "one bread, one body".
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Albertus
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Yes, that would work, and would save an awful lot of faffing about, wouldn't it?

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Thurible
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It would also make those of who aren't convinced that gluten-free wafers aren't invalid matter decidedly uncomfortable.

Thurible

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BulldogSacristan
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ARE gluten-free hosts valid? In what sense are they bread?
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Albertus
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Well, in what sense are wafers per se 'bread'? We use them,sure, but if you showed one to anyone not familiar with its use in a liturgical context and asked what it was, no-one, but no-one, would answer' bread'.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Thurible
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They're made of wheat.

Thurible

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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...which is one of several grains that can be used to make bread. Rice, I would say, is not, but barley, rye, and spelt are all used to make bread.

We have had a similar issue with a gent at our church who is a lifelong teetotal. Under our previous vicar he had his own mini chalice with non-alcoholic wine that he would receive. Shortly after commencing, our new priest-in-charge sought the bishop's advice on this arrangement and was told that the practice should be discontinued. Is it really preferable for this gent to receive under one kind only, rather than to receive non alcoholic wine?

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Thurible
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Canon B17.2 of the Church of England:
quote:
2. The bread, whether leavened or unleavened, shall be of the best and purest wheat flour that conveniently may be gotten, and the wine the fermented juice of the grape, good and wholesome.
Thurible

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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
They're made of wheat.

So are crackers, cookies and beer—none of which are bread. Wafers much more resemble (and taste like) styrofoam than what any person would expect when offered "bread."

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
...which is one of several grains that can be used to make bread. Rice, I would say, is not, but barley, rye, and spelt are all used to make bread.

We have had a similar issue with a gent at our church who is a lifelong teetotal. Under our previous vicar he had his own mini chalice with non-alcoholic wine that he would receive. Shortly after commencing, our new priest-in-charge sought the bishop's advice on this arrangement and was told that the practice should be discontinued. Is it really preferable for this gent to receive under one kind only, rather than to receive non alcoholic wine?

Do you disagree with the doctrine of concomitance?

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LostinChelsea
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I knew that this would stir up the "what is bread" and "what is canonical" tempest. Go by your church's canons.

(And don't forget the old punchline, "I can believe it's Jesus, I just can't believe it's bread!")

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Canon B17.2 of the Church of England:
quote:
2. The bread, whether leavened or unleavened, shall be of the best and purest wheat flour that conveniently may be gotten, and the wine the fermented juice of the grape, good and wholesome.
Thurible
All this says is that use of non-wheat bread is, in the CofE, a breach of the Canons; that is, I suppose, it is illegal. It doesn't say that use of non-wheat bread is invalid, in the sense that only wheaten bread is capable of undergoing whatever change the bread undergoes when it is used eucharistically.
I would not regard any breach of the Canons lightly. But Canons can be changed.

[ 01. November 2013, 16:09: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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Pancho
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
They're made of wheat.

So are crackers, cookies and beer—none of which are bread. Wafers much more resemble (and taste like) styrofoam than what any person would expect when offered "bread."
Wafers are really no different than a soft wheat tortilla or a chapati, which are flatbreads. They and the Near Eastern flatbreads resemble hosts and each other more than they do the supermarket brands of leavened bread.

Don't be limited by 21st century First World, Northern European culturally and historically limited preconceptions of what is "bread".

[ 01. November 2013, 16:17: Message edited by: Pancho ]

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Canon B17.2 of the Church of England:
quote:
2. The bread, whether leavened or unleavened, shall be of the best and purest wheat flour that conveniently may be gotten, and the wine the fermented juice of the grape, good and wholesome.
Thurible
All this says is that use of non-wheat bread is, in the CofE, a breach of the Canons; that is, I suppose, it is illegal. It doesn't say that use of non-wheat bread is invalid, in the sense that only wheaten bread is capable of undergoing whatever change the bread undergoes when it is used eucharistically.
I would not regard any breach of the Canons lightly. But Canons can be changed.

Well, should the canons be viewed as laws that can be altered when convenient without any reference to other considerations? Or should they be viewed in the light of continuity with the Church's practice over centuries?

Sure, the canons can be changed. The canons regarding the necessity of baptism for partaking in the Eucharist can be changed. But does changing the canons in itself confer validity on a theologically dubious practice?

Complicating the issue, of course, "validity" is not really a value that the canons address; they're laws which determine what is licit and what is not. In this I'd say they reflect the orientation and preoccupations of the C of E (until very recently), which was much more concerned with what was legal and permissible rather than what was valid or sacramentally efficacious.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
They're made of wheat.

Thurible

So are some kinds of wallpaper paste

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:



Wafers are really no different than a soft wheat tortilla or a chapati, which are flatbreads. They and the Near Eastern flatbreads resemble hosts and each other more than they do the supermarket brands of leavened bread.

Don't be limited by 21st century First World, Northern European culturally and historically limited preconceptions of what is "bread".

That's simply untrue, unless you guys have very different ideas of what a chapati is from us. Or maybe what a wafer is.

I see lots of chapatis. I bought some just yesterday. And the last time I ate some wheat tortillas was certainly less than a month ago. (Though shops here call them 'wraps" for some arcane reason no doubt related to mildly out-of-date notions about Californian or Australian fast food). And I often buy and eat pitta breads. And I buy lots of bread in Turkish shops where they have a wide variety of Turkish and Arab and Eastern European styles of food, including plenty of leavened and unleavened flat breads, like khobez.

And they are NOTHING LIKE communion wafers. They are a different colour, a different flavour, a different consistency, just different. In everything. Other than flatness. They are much more like our leavened unflat bread than they are like communion wafers.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
Wafers are really no different than a soft wheat tortilla or a chapati, which are flatbreads. They and the Near Eastern flatbreads resemble hosts and each other more than they do the supermarket brands of leavened bread.

Don't be limited by 21st century First World, Northern European culturally and historically limited preconceptions of what is "bread".

Oh, I'm not at all limited by 21st Century First World, Northern European culturally and historically limited preconceptions of what is "bread." Given my choice, it'd be flatbreads like chapati or naan for Communion. (And I'd admit that matzos is very much like crackers, which I gave as a non-bread example.)

I disagree, however, that a traditional communion wafer is at all like a soft wheat tortilla or a chapati. Beyond being generally round and flat, I see little similarity.

But I agree completely that one should follow the canons, rules or expectations of one's own church's discipline and tradition. In the case of my tradition, that means bread "common to the culture of the community."

[ 01. November 2013, 16:53: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Barefoot Friar

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Thanks, Zach and LostinChelsea. I'll look into something like that.

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Oh, I'm not at all limited by 21st Century First World, Northern European culturally and historically limited preconceptions of what is "bread." Given my choice, it'd be flatbreads like chapati or naan for Communion. (And I'd admit that matzos is very much like crackers, which I gave as a non-bread example.)

Note that, while naan are indeed flatbreads, they are not unleavened bread. (Nor are pitta breads, for that matter.) They are made with yeast

In many ways, the choice depends on whether you want to promote the meal aspect of the Eucharist or the participating-in-the-sacrifice-of-Christ aspect.

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Albertus
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But in what way do wafers promote the sense of sharing in the sacrifice of Christ? I assume that they originally came in for practical reasons of portability, keepability (and suitability for resrevation), not crumbling, and so on. Or am I wrong about that?

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Barefoot Friar

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In that having to use hosts instead of "real" bread is a sacrifice?

[Biased]

I'll get my coat...

[ 01. November 2013, 20:12: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But in what way do wafers promote the sense of sharing in the sacrifice of Christ? I assume that they originally came in for practical reasons of portability, keepability (and suitability for resrevation), not crumbling, and so on. Or am I wrong about that?

The Western tradition historically insisted on unleavened bread in order to recall the Passover sacrifice. Individual wafers came about for practical reasons, yes.

In my experience, the churches that want to promote the theological idea of the Eucharist as a communal meal do so with leavened bread (to make the link with everyday food) whereas those who wish to promote the idea of the Eucharist as sacrifice use unleavened bread to participate in the Passover typology.

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John Holding

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Does anyone know what "unleavened bread" would have looked like at the time of Jesus? That might provide some guidance.

Surely not anything even vaguely resembling either a standard communion wafer or modern matzohs. But what then?

John

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
...which is one of several grains that can be used to make bread. Rice, I would say, is not, but barley, rye, and spelt are all used to make bread.

We have had a similar issue with a gent at our church who is a lifelong teetotal. Under our previous vicar he had his own mini chalice with non-alcoholic wine that he would receive. Shortly after commencing, our new priest-in-charge sought the bishop's advice on this arrangement and was told that the practice should be discontinued. Is it really preferable for this gent to receive under one kind only, rather than to receive non alcoholic wine?

Rice flour is used to make bread, although usually in addition to other flours - see Vietnamese baguettes for example. Mmmm banh mi.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Does anyone know what "unleavened bread" would have looked like at the time of Jesus? That might provide some guidance.

Surely not anything even vaguely resembling either a standard communion wafer or modern matzohs. But what then?

John

It would quite probably been made out of barley, and so not wheaten anyway (John 6:9 anyone?). Bread made of wheat was for the wealthy in Roman-occupied territories. Kamut, emmer and spelt flour was also used in the area at that time. I do think that since wheat bread was unlikely to have been the bread used at the Last Supper, the CoE canons regarding it (and non-alcoholic Communion wine) should be changed.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
Note that, while naan are indeed flatbreads, they are not unleavened bread. (Nor are pitta breads, for that matter.) They are made with yeast.

Right, but I'm Presbyterian—either leavened or leavened is permissible for us. Leavened, though, is much more common.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Does anyone know what "unleavened bread" would have looked like at the time of Jesus? That might provide some guidance.

Surely not anything even vaguely resembling either a standard communion wafer or modern matzohs. But what then?

John

I've made matzot at times (including for the Eucharist), following what I think are fairly authentic recipes.

They are simply flour and water (sometimes with salt) mixed into a dough, then rolled into approximately circular shapes and baked. They are brittle and crisp.

They are not a million miles from the large "concelebration" wafers you see sometimes, though they do generally have a bit more flavour.

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I know that the tabernacle is never veiled in black and must be in purple when a Requiem Mass is celebrated. I was also recently told that the altar frontal on an altar with an occupied tabernacle must also never be black and should be purple. However, I can find little authority for this and a recent picture would suggest otherwise. Any thoughts...?
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seasick

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If you dig into Fortescue, it says:
quote:
At Mass for the Dead certain special rules are observed. The vestments are black. The altar frontal should also be black. If the Sanctissimum is reserved on the altar, it is better that it should be removed. If this cannot be done, the tabernacle veil must be violet. It is never allowed to hang a black tabernacle veil in front of the Blessed Sacrament. The frontal may be either black or violet.
I don't have anything to hand on the contemporary Roman Catholic rules but I imagine that given that the use of violet or white as the colour seems more common the question may not arise.

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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Forthview
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Few Catholic churches will have altar frontals now,so the question,as you say, hardly arises.Whilst the colour for funeral Masses is now often white as a sign of hope,the colour on All Souls Day is purple,for the tabernacle veil,if there be one,for the celebrant's vestments and for the antependium,if there be one.
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pererin
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quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
ARE gluten-free hosts valid? In what sense are they bread?

There are gluten-free breads that are commonly eaten in parts of India. The jowar (or jolada) roti is made of jowar/jolad/sorghum flour. Indeed, it's technically unleavened bread too...

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Gee D
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We do white for funerals and accordingly also for All Souls.

As for bread, none in the range of Indian breads mentioned is made from pure white wheaten* flour, and would seem to fall foul of the canon.

*Unless there's a much wider definition of wheat than I'm aware of. Corn, for example (Corn in Egypt!) used mean any type of grain, rather than the present very restricted usage.

[ 02. November 2013, 19:40: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by Dies Irae:
a recent picture would suggest otherwise. Any thoughts...?

If it's the recent photo I'm thinking of, the frontal is allegedly purple too.

Thurible

[deleted duplicate post]

[ 02. November 2013, 23:43: Message edited by: seasick ]

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Curiosity killed ...

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As an aside to the bread discussion, rye, barley, spelt and other grains also contain gluten, so are irrelevant to any discussion of gluten-free bread.

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Stranger in a strange land
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Few Catholic churches will have altar frontals now,so the question,as you say, hardly arises.Whilst the colour for funeral Masses is now often white as a sign of hope,the colour on All Souls Day is purple,for the tabernacle veil,if there be one,for the celebrant's vestments and for the antependium,if there be one.

The colour for All Souls is purple or black according to my diocesan Ordo; I have always used black. Likewise purple or black are options for masses for the dead while white is permitted (in England and Wales) as an exception.
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pererin
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
As an aside to the bread discussion, rye, barley, spelt and other grains also contain gluten, so are irrelevant to any discussion of gluten-free bread.

Your generalization about other grains has exceptions. Which are used to make perfectly normal recognizable bread "that is usual to be eaten" in certain parts of the world. Making a fuss about botany is pointless: on the fussy botanist's view, our Lord was wrong about the mustard seed. If botanical inexactidute was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for us.

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Curiosity killed ...

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I did specifically mean barley, rye and spelt, and the other generalisation was because I knew I'd forgotten one ~ oats. Yes there are gluten free grains, but the particular grains mentioned aren't them.

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Jengie jon

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Unfortunately as a rule normal grain used for bread making contains gluten. That is because gluten plays a significant role in the texture and form of bread. Gluten free bread flours have to have a substitute for the gluten to allow them to make bread. Hence the Roman Catholic Church's big problem with gluten free wafers.

Jengie

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Unfortunately as a rule normal grain used for bread making contains gluten. That is because gluten plays a significant role in the texture and form of bread. Gluten free bread flours have to have a substitute for the gluten to allow them to make bread. Hence the Roman Catholic Church's big problem with gluten free wafers.

Jengie

The RCC's big problem with gluten-free wafers is that they aren't bread as defined in their canons.

This is the reason why most RCC churches offer low-gluten, but not gluten-free, hosts.

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Ceremoniar
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Another way of handling communion is to have the gluten-intolerant communicant receive only the Precious Blood.
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Jengie jon

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Did you read the link?

Jengie

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
...which is one of several grains that can be used to make bread. Rice, I would say, is not, but barley, rye, and spelt are all used to make bread.

We have had a similar issue with a gent at our church who is a lifelong teetotal. Under our previous vicar he had his own mini chalice with non-alcoholic wine that he would receive. Shortly after commencing, our new priest-in-charge sought the bishop's advice on this arrangement and was told that the practice should be discontinued. Is it really preferable for this gent to receive under one kind only, rather than to receive non alcoholic wine?

I have a friend on the program who cannot be anywhere near alcohol; she takes the bread and then returns to her seat. She told me that it is no bother to her. She further said that there is no such thing as non-alcoholic wine but there is grape juice-- she tells me that it brings back too many memories of wine to be a possibility for her.

Folk interested in the RC approach on gluten-free hosts can look at the US bishops' conference
note on the topic.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Another way of handling communion is to have the gluten-intolerant communicant receive only the Precious Blood.

Not unless they have a separate chalice for coeliacs - a chalice used by everyone will be contaminated. The lack of understanding about contamination (which is a serious problem for coeliacs) makes it a nightmare.

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