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Originally posted by KevinL:
Reverences: when the setup has the altar pulled away from the wall for a versus populum celebration of the Eucharist, but the East wall directly behind the altar has the tabernacle set into it (like a vault, not like an aumbry)

Thoughts, suggestions, references, best practices on how to reverence the Blessed Sacrament and/or altar upon entering the church, crossing before the altar/tabernacle in general, approaching at the beginning of mass, and the most awkward of awkwards, passing between the tabernacle and the altar? This is an Episcopal church but I'd be interested to know how RC cope with this set-up as well.

Thanks in advance for replies.

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Originally posted by KevinL:
Thanks Angloid and Comper's Child. It is pulled away, in that is is probably only a meter from the East Wall (though free standing).

Comper's Child, when you say "when the celebrant is at the west side" do you mean when he is facing west? I'm a bit confused as to the scenario, since at the west side he would have more space and be able to reverence both.

Also, are we talking genuflections here, or profound bows? I assume because it is the BS, we mean genuflections at the beginning and end, but bows otherwise?

Thanks!

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Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Growing up in a Catholic parish, it was our custom to reverence the tabernacle only upon entering and leaving the sanctuary, not while puttering about setting things up/tearing things down. We didn't think we were being disrespectful, but others may disagree.

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Originally posted by flags_fiend:
I visited a different anglican church last Sunday evening for evensong, which I enjoyed (it is quite different to what I am used to). I was confused as to why, in the hymn just before the sermon, a man who was sat with the choir, although obviously not a member of the choir (he was dressed differently, the choir were robed, he was dressed in black), got up, went up to where the altar was and put out two candles that were on sticks in front of and to either side of the altar.

So my questions are;
1). Why were the candles put out before the sermon?
2). Was a missing something important about this man's role? He seemed to be praying through most of the rest of the service.

Thanks, flags x

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Originally posted by Comper's Child:
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When did the departed begin to "Rise in Glory" ?

When I was a young Anglican - they merely Rested in Peace as far as I remember... but of late one never hears one without the other.

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Originally posted by Cornish High:
I cannot lay my hand on my copy of the Fison, but it is called "Afire for God" by F.W. Dillistone. I recall that on the last page the sentence in question went something like, "... the little term Joe taught people to use at the end of the traditional prayer 'may the souls ... rest in peace' and rise in glory." Perhaps someone with a copy of the book can verify? . . .

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Originally posted by Corvo:

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Originally posted by flags_fiend:
I visited a different anglican church last Sunday evening for evensong, which I enjoyed (it is quite different to what I am used to). I was confused as to why, in the hymn just before the sermon, a man who was sat with the choir, although obviously not a member of the choir (he was dressed differently, the choir were robed, he was dressed in black), got up, went up to where the altar was and put out two candles that were on sticks in front of and to either side of the altar.

So my questions are;
1). Why were the candles put out before the sermon?
2). Was a missing something important about this man's role? He seemed to be praying through most of the rest of the service.

Thanks, flags x

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There is no provision in the BCP for a Sermon at Evensong, so in some places it was (and apparently still is) the custom to extinguish the candles after the Grace to signify the end of the office. The sermon that follows is not then considered to be part of the service, but a separate event.

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Originally posted by Corvo:

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Originally posted by Comper's Child:
. . .
When did the departed begin to "Rise in Glory" ?

When I was a young Anglican - they merely Rested in Peace as far as I remember... but of late one never hears one without the other.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cornish High:
I cannot lay my hand on my copy of the Fison, but it is called "Afire for God" by F.W. Dillistone. I recall that on the last page the sentence in question went something like, "... the little term Joe taught people to use at the end of the traditional prayer 'may the souls ... rest in peace' and rise in glory." Perhaps someone with a copy of the book can verify? . . .

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I have a copy in front of me and its does indeed conclude "Joe's own last word might have been the phrase which he taught others to add to the traditional prayer: 'May the souls of the departed rest in peace:' And rise in Glory."

Joe Fison began as an Evangelical, both studying and teaching at Wycliffe Hall, but was strongly impressed by his early experience of the Ethiopian Church, and later by the thinking of Berdyaev, Buber and Tillich. Through his ministry, particularly in Cambridge and Salisbury, he influenced generations of Anglican ordinands.

I think it is very likely that he is responsible for the popularity of the "rise in glory" response in MOTR parishes which in the 1960s were probably just beginning to regularly use the 'rest in peace' formula.

The Christian Hope: the presence of the Parousia (1954) was his most substantial work, and it is likely that it explains what he understood by it.

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Originally posted by Hart:
Was it just after the words of Institution? ("This is my body... this is my blood"). This is to draw people's attention to that moment (dating from a time when the words of the Eucharistic Prayer were said quietly by a priest whose face the people couldn't see).

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Originally posted by Hart:
Was it just after the words of Institution? ("This is my body... this is my blood"). This is to draw people's attention to that moment (dating from a time when the words of the Eucharistic Prayer were said quietly by a priest whose face the people couldn't see).

PS. The preparation is the rite of preparing the altar. The Eucharistic Prayer is the long prayer that the priest says after that before communion is given out. Do you mean the latter?

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Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
Our servers are trained to ring the sanctuary bells at the Sanctus (3x3, one for each 'Holy')...

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Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
Our servers are trained to ring the sanctuary bells at the Sanctus (3x3, one for each 'Holy'), the elevation of the bread and wine (3x3 each), and during the benedictus.

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Originally posted by Hart:
When the Lectionary has a longer and a shorter version of a gospel, does anyone know if it's OK to do something intermediate? Ie. all of the shorter, and some but not all of the verses it skips that are in the longer? [You can take 'OK' in various senses, but the one I'm particularly interested in is for Roman Catholics at Mass.]

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Originally posted by Stranger in a strange land:

quote:

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Originally posted by Hart:
When the Lectionary has a longer and a shorter version of a gospel, does anyone know if it's OK to do something intermediate? Ie. all of the shorter, and some but not all of the verses it skips that are in the longer? [You can take 'OK' in various senses, but the one I'm particularly interested in is for Roman Catholics at Mass.]

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My instinct is to say a definite 'no'. I'd need to check chapter and verse but a priest has no right to vary the set texts without express permission. I don't recall seeing any such permission.

(Would have been nice for last Sundays second lesson).

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Originally posted by Percy B:
I am reading a whodunit set in an Anglo Catholic Church, where the priest gets murdered.

Before the murder he is robing for High Mass. The author comments that it was a liturgically precise church in which the deacon and subdeacon had to wait until the priest put on the chasubles before they put on dalmatics and tunicle.

Was that the custom?

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Originally posted by Mr. Rob:

quote:

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Originally posted by Percy B:
I am reading a whodunit set in an Anglo Catholic Church, where the priest gets murdered.

Before the murder he is robing for High Mass. The author comments that it was a liturgically precise church in which the deacon and subdeacon had to wait until the priest put on the chasubles before they put on dalmatics and tunicle.

Was that the custom?

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Unfortunately, the author of that whodunit is wrong, or that Anglo-Catholic church was doing it wrong. Adrian Fortescue, THE authority in his famed Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described,
says that the deacon and sudeacon vest, with the exception of their maniples, before the arrival of the celebrant, so as to be in readiness for him. The deacon and subdeacon then assist the celebrant to vest. Previous to that, the first and second acolytes have assisted the deacon and subdeacon to vest, At the conclusion of vesting, the deacon offers the maniple to the celebrant, then he and the subdeacon don their own maniples.

That's how High Mass vesting is done by the book, but not apparently by the book you are reading.

*.

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Originally posted by Percy B:
Do Anglicans ever sport mozzettas?

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Originally posted by Ceremoniar:

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Originally posted by Mr. Rob:

quote:

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Originally posted by Percy B:
I am reading a whodunit set in an Anglo Catholic Church, where the priest gets murdered.

Before the murder he is robing for High Mass. The author comments that it was a liturgically precise church in which the deacon and subdeacon had to wait until the priest put on the chasubles before they put on dalmatics and tunicle.

Was that the custom?

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Unfortunately, the author of that whodunit is wrong, or that Anglo-Catholic church was doing it wrong. Adrian Fortescue, THE authority in his famed Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described,
says that the deacon and sudeacon vest, with the exception of their maniples, before the arrival of the celebrant, so as to be in readiness for him. The deacon and subdeacon then assist the celebrant to vest. Previous to that, the first and second acolytes have assisted the deacon and subdeacon to vest, At the conclusion of vesting, the deacon offers the maniple to the celebrant, then he and the subdeacon don their own maniples.

That's how High Mass vesting is done by the book, but not apparently by the book you are reading.

*.

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Unless the Solemn Mass in question is on a Sunday (as most are), in which case the maniples for all three are on their respective sedilia. Maniples are not donned until after the Asperges, when the celebrant changes from cope to chasuble.

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Originally posted by Percy B:
I am talking of the Mozzetta, just to be clear, not the pellegrina.

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Originally posted by Percy B:
I am talking of the Mozzetta, just to be clear, not the pellegrina.

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Originally posted by leo:

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Originally posted by Percy B:
I am talking of the Mozzetta, just to be clear, not the pellegrina.

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That ought to go in the 'guotes file' if i knew how to do it.

A priceless example of some of the exotica and tatporn that happens on this board.

Having moved in anglo-catholic circles for 48 years, i haven't a clue what a pellegrina' is, nor the slightest interest in finding out - maybe it should be worn by women bishops when we finally, please God, get them.

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