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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Miscellaneous questions of a liturgical nature
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New Yorker
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# 9898
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Posted
FCB: I've seen bishops kiss the Gospel but never bless with it. You've seen bishops bless the people after kissing the Gospel?
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
FCB: I've seen bishops kiss the Gospel but never bless with it. You've seen bishops bless the people after kissing the Gospel?
Yes, this does happen, though it's pretty rare. I've been unable to find much that documents its use, but the American GIRM says this:
quote:
In more solemn celebrations, if appropriate, the Bishop may impart a blessing to the people with the Book of
the Gospels.
So far as I can tell, it's not an instruction given in Fortescue, so I presume it has come in with the Mass of Paul VI. I'd be interested if anyone knows any more about this.
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
I've certainly seen the pope do this at
Solemn Masses.He is,like Fortescue,somewhat of an
authority on Catholic liturgy.
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american piskie
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# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
FCB: I've seen bishops kiss the Gospel but never bless with it. You've seen bishops bless the people after kissing the Gospel?
Almost every Spanish bishop who celebrates the Sunday Mass broadcast weekly by RTVE blesses the people with the gospel book after he's kissed it.
I'm pretty sure the Holy Father does the same.
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crucifer:
After the gospel has been sung by the deacon (or assistant priest), the subdeacon (or layreader) carries the gospel book back into the sanctuary and hands it to the celebrant who then opens it and holds it while the thurifer censes it with three doubles.
This is weird. According to Ritual Notes, the book is censed before the Gospel is read/sung, but not afterward. Despite your priest's elaborate explanation, I suspect his practice has its origins in a conflation of the pre-Gospel censing of the book and the post-Gospel censing of the celebrant.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bos Loquax:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
What replaces 'Al.e.u.a' in the traditional language English rite? In modern circles we have 'praise to you O Christ King for Eternal glory' or similar. What used to be used.
I don't authoritatively know the answer, but I imagine the answer, at least in large part, to be some version of that--in Latin, "Laus tibi, Domine, Rex aeternae gloriae."
For instance, I have a book that has "To thee, O Lord, all honour be, King of endless majesty," and I find the more literal "Praise be to Thee, O Lord, King of everlasting glory" in various sources online (including old English-language prayer books now available through Google Books).
Thanks. Is the English Missal available online, then? If so it would give the answer to my question about the requiem in Lent tract - or whatever it's called!
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Mary, a priest??
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
quote:
Originally posted by Bos Loquax:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
What replaces 'Al.e.u.a' in the traditional language English rite? In modern circles we have 'praise to you O Christ King for Eternal glory' or similar. What used to be used.
I don't authoritatively know the answer, but I imagine the answer, at least in large part, to be some version of that--in Latin, "Laus tibi, Domine, Rex aeternae gloriae."
For instance, I have a book that has "To thee, O Lord, all honour be, King of endless majesty," and I find the more literal "Praise be to Thee, O Lord, King of everlasting glory" in various sources online (including old English-language prayer books now available through Google Books).
Thanks. Is the English Missal available online, then? If so it would give the answer to my question about the requiem in Lent tract - or whatever it's called!
I am not exactly sure what is being asked, but in the Roman, Anglican and English Missals, during Septuagesima and Lent, after the gradual on Sundays (and also every Mon/Wed/Fri of Lent) there is a tract, which is a text that replaces the A-verse. Each Sunday tract is different, and most are fairly lengthy. (Last Sunday's was extremely long!) The Mon/Wed/Fri daily tract is always a repeat of the tract said on Ash Wednesday:
V. O Lord, remember not our old sins, but have mercy upon us, and that soon, for we are come to great misery.V. Help us, O God of our salvation for the glory of thy name : O deliver us, and be merciful unto our sins for thy name's sake.
On Tue/Thu/Sat, after the gradual the priest proceeds directly to the Munda cor meum and the gospel.
Hope this helps.
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
Thank you for your kind response Ceremoniar.
More specifically I am asking what the tract is for a requiem in Lent in the form of traditional liturgy you refer to.
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Mary, a priest??
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Manipled Mutineer
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Posted
The Anglican Missal is online but neither it nor the English Missal for the Laity, which I have just consulted, indicate what is said in place of Alleluia. Ritual Notes also appears silent on the matter. You might find that an Anglican breviary is more helpful, and the two I have ready access to, Day Hours of the Church and Hours of Prayer front Lauds to Compline both give "To thee, O Lord, be glory ; King of endless majesty."
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
The tract for a Requiem Mass is usually this :
V. Absolve, O Lord, the souls of the faithful departed : from every bond of sin.
R. And by the help of Thy grace : may they be enabled to escape the avenging judgment.
V. And enjoy the bliss : of everlasting light.
R. Eternal rest give to them, O Lord : and let perpetual light shine upon them.
In some places the psalm De profundis is used instead.
[ 19. February 2013, 18:56: Message edited by: Fr Weber ]
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Manipled Mutineer
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# 11514
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Posted
Turning to the other question, my reading of EMfL and An Abridged Anglican Missal is that the Tract in Masses of the Dead in Lent is the same as for any other season, viz:
Absolve, O Lord, the souls of all the faithful departed from every bond of sin.
V. And by the help of thy grace may they be worthy to escape the avenging judgement.
V. And enjoy the bliss of everlasting light. [EMfL]
Absolve, O Lord, the souls of all the faithful departed from all the chains of their sins.
V. That by the succour of thy grace they may be found worthy to escape the avenging judgement
[Then as EMfL - AAM]
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally quoted by Basilica:
"In more solemn celebrations, if appropriate, the Bishop may impart a blessing to the people with the Book of the Gospels."
How? Does he biff them on the head with it?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally quoted by Basilica:
"In more solemn celebrations, if appropriate, the Bishop may impart a blessing to the people with the Book of the Gospels."
How? Does he biff them on the head with it?
On the occasions that I've seen it (which have been in an Anglican context) the bishop has lifted the book of the Gospels high made the sign of the cross over the congregation with it. No words were spoken.
Biffing sounds much more entertaining, though.
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
So far as I can tell, it's not an instruction given in Fortescue, so I presume it has come in with the Mass of Paul VI. I'd be interested if anyone knows any more about this.
Not quite, although mentioning a Pope is apposite. Blessing the people with the Book of the Gospels used to be a prerogative of the Holy Father. It was JPII who extended this to all bishops. I remember being quite shocked, as recently as about 10 years ago, seeing a bishop at Lourdes do so. I made a snarky comment to someone afterwards about pretentious bishops - only the Pope blesses the people with the Book of the Gospels! But I was put right and told the Pope had recently commended the custom to all bishops. And sure enough, the new GIRM in 2002 included the rubric about the bishop doing so "on more solemn occasions". Of course, some bishops think every occasion at which they preside is a solemn occasion!
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Mama Thomas
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Posted
Interesting.. Have you a video? How do they do it? Where's the crosier? Used to be liturgical books were faced down, the open side facing left, IIRC, so front or back of the Gospel book towards the people? With both hands, I presume? Never heard of it before today..
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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Jon in the Nati
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# 15849
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Posted
It is done with the front of the book (which is generally an icon of Christ, or at least a cross or christogram) facing the people. Usually the bishop will take the book from the deacon, kiss the page, close the book, and make the blessing in the shape of a cross. Think of movement of the monstrance at benediction, and you have the same basic idea. Once, at St. Peter's in Cincinnati, the deacon who had just read the gospel handed the book to the bishop, took the thurible from an acolyte, and censed the book while the bishop was making the blessing. I've never seen that anywhere else.
I am surprised more people haven't seen this; every time I have seen a Catholic bishop celebrate in the Ordinary Form, it has happened. I saw an Anglican bishop do it once. It is clearly an affectation, but it seems harmless enough to me.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
I'm surprised that this is both so recent and so little known. I used to watch the big events on EWTN from various places quite frequently so my experience of seeing this may be unusual, but I'd have thought it so common as to be unremarkable, especially as, as Triple Tiara points out, some bishops have a particularly generous interpretation of "more solemn occasions". Certainly, that Roman Catholic bishops bless with the Gospel book is one of those things that is just part of my consciousness without any specific memory of where I picked it up.
Incidentally, this is a standard part of Byzantine practice, even when a priest serves rather than a bishop.
[cross-posted with Jon in the Nati, whose surprise I share - perhaps this is just less common in some places.]
[ 20. February 2013, 06:15: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
I have seen priests hold up the book of Gospels after reading it, and turn to 'show' it to those around, - this in Anglican churches.
I have not seen a blessing with the book.
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Mary, a priest??
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Interesting.. Have you a video? How do they do it? Where's the crosier? Used to be liturgical books were faced down, the open side facing left, IIRC, so front or back of the Gospel book towards the people? With both hands, I presume? Never heard of it before today..
Here - about the 28minute mark - all your questions answered ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
I'd like to ask about Alleluia in the office during Lent. A triple Alleluia was the antiphon for the three praise psalms at the end of Lauds (ie 148, 149, 150.)
What was the antiphon during Lent?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I'd like to ask about Alleluia in the office during Lent. A triple Alleluia was the antiphon for the three praise psalms at the end of Lauds (ie 148, 149, 150.)
What was the antiphon during Lent?
On Sundays a proper antiphon is given in the Proper of the Season (Temporale). I think the last of the antiphons given is the one for 148-149-150. On other days there should be a "Throughout the Year" antiphon without Alleluia given in the Psalter.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I'd like to ask about Alleluia in the office during Lent. A triple Alleluia was the antiphon for the three praise psalms at the end of Lauds (ie 148, 149, 150.)
What was the antiphon during Lent?
On Sundays a proper antiphon is given in the Proper of the Season (Temporale). I think the last of the antiphons given is the one for 148-149-150. On other days there should be a "Throughout the Year" antiphon without Alleluia given in the Psalter.
Sorry for the lack of context...I was writing here about traditional breviaries, or at least the traditional Benedictine one.
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
I saw an Anglican bishop do it once. It is clearly an affectation, but it seems harmless enough to me.
I presume you mean that when an Anglican bishop does it it's an affectation. When a Catholic bishop does it he's simply following the rubric.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
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Mama Thomas
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# 10170
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Posted
Thank you, Triple Tiara for that link. It was lovely. I've seen plenty of Anglican priest sing the final blessing which in Rome I think only bishops are allowed to do, so--I wonder if any Anglican priest might adopt this custom.
It works both ways. I've seen a couple of RC churches move the Gospel reading to the midst of the congregation a few times (but they were instructed to move it back to the ambo later).
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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Jon in the Nati
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# 15849
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Posted
quote:
I presume you mean that when an Anglican bishop does it it's an affectation. When a Catholic bishop does it he's simply following the rubric.
Quite so, HT.
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Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
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Pancho
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# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
It's not unusual to see 4-part hymns for the congregation in hymnals* but is there such a thing as a 4-part congregational setting of the Eucharist? I mean, one meant to be sung in harmony by the people rather than (just) by the choir?
I'll have to dig through materials when I get home, but I can definitely say they are rare.
There are settings that have four part sections, but are not totally four part. I've only ever encountered them in choral use, though. There is a very nice setting of theGloria from A New Mass for.Congregations. Also, some Proulx settings feature parts as well. The Schubert/Proulx Deutsche Messe setting is an example that has parts most if not the whole way through.
All I have found so far with a congregational 4 part harmony are paraphrases, whether in English or not. (The "Peruvian" Gloria, for instance...I'm sure you are familiar with its "Alleluia Amen" portions.
Believe it or not, I'm not familiar with it at all. I had to do a google search to find out what it is. I don't think it's included in any of the U.S. Catholic hymnals and I've never come across it at a Spanish mass north or south of the border.
quote:
On second thought, another proverbial tree to bark up would be that of Taize, or perhaps Iona. If I recall correctly, the works from those places tend to be designed for all gathered to sing in parts.
Thanks. I like Taizé music and I do like the Taizé mass. Now that I think about it, I wonder if the music of André Gouzes would also fit the bill, but I again I don't know if the harmonies are meant for the brothers/sisters/choir or the the congregation, too.
What got me thinking about all of this is that I had seen some complaints online about how none of the major U.S. Catholic hymnals have harmonies in their pew editions and how this was another case of dumbing down music for congregations. It just had me thinking that if you want Catholic congregations to sing in harmony the logical place to begin is with the Ordinary of the Mass rather than hymns so it made me curious to see if anything like that was out there.
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I am not sure either would do the full text for the eucharist but Iona do, do the Gloria (page 13) and I suspect Church hymnary 4 have other responses in four part harmony (Rejoice and Sing does so I think they would with the number of liturgical texts John Bell has set to music).
Thanks for that link.
quote:
By the way whi do you think introduced the Peruvian Gloria outside Peru?
I wonder what happened to the original source because the weird thing is, when I did a search on YouTube none of the examples were from actual Peruvians. Maybe I didn't search long enough.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
Within the last ten years we had some Peruvians attend our church on an occasion when we had the Peruvian Gloria. I asked them about it, and they didn't seem to have heard of it before.
I remember it from the 70s in a basically BCP mass. Is it rather dated?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Within the last ten years we had some Peruvians attend our church on an occasion when we had the Peruvian Gloria. I asked them about it, and they didn't seem to have heard of it before.
I remember it from the 70s in a basically BCP mass. Is it rather dated?
I always thought the "Peruvian" Gloria in the Kevin Mayhew books was like the "Caribbean" Our Father in the same books, i.e. composed by Europeans who threw in a few syncopations so that it could pass as reminiscent of the music of another culture. The only time I heard the "Caribbean" Our Father in St Kitts was in a church that had imported Hymns Old and New along with its English priest. It is also where I learnt the "Peruvian" Gloria.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Pancho
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# 13533
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Posted
When I saw "Peruvian Gloria" at first I thought what was meant was the Gloria from Ramirez's Misa Criolla. The music is based on Argentine folk styles but there are strong Andean influences in northwestern Argentina, making the music sound Peruvian.
Gloria - Misa Criolla
I saw that it didn't match the "Peruvian Gloria" so I did a few more but not too many searches with terms like "gloria peruana" and "gloria andina" (andean gloria) one melody that came up often was this one:
Gloria - Misa Andina
I'm not skeptical that the tune of "Peruvian Gloria" is actually Peruvian, I'm just wondering where they found it.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
]I always thought the "Peruvian" Gloria in the Kevin Mayhew books was like the "Caribbean" Our Father in the same books, i.e. composed by Europeans who threw in a few syncopations so that it could pass as reminiscent of the music of another culture. [/QB]
I know we've been told to be careful what we say about the works of the Blessed Kevin, but to my uninformed ear it does rather sound like this might be the case.
It's particularly a pity that this gets the label of 'Peruvian Gloria' when you think of all that really cracking baroque church music from Peru and thereabouts that has been rediscovered in recent years.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I can remember both the Gloria and Carribbean Our Father in the late 60s inserted into Series 2 with BCP propers, so they've been around a bit.
The good thing about them is they shouldn't need the text in front of everyone, but they have been printed out in full when I've come across them.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
]I always thought the "Peruvian" Gloria in the Kevin Mayhew books was like the "Caribbean" Our Father in the same books, i.e. composed by Europeans who threw in a few syncopations so that it could pass as reminiscent of the music of another culture.
I know we've been told to be careful what we say about the works of the Blessed Kevin, but to my uninformed ear it does rather sound like this might be the case.
It's particularly a pity that this gets the label of 'Peruvian Gloria' when you think of all that really cracking baroque church music from Peru and thereabouts that has been rediscovered in recent years. [/QB]
It seems rather an unkind thing to saddle Peru with, somehow, after they were so kind as to give us Paddington Bear...
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
It is done with the front of the book (which is generally an icon of Christ, or at least a cross or christogram) facing the people. Usually the bishop will take the book from the deacon, kiss the page, close the book, and make the blessing in the shape of a cross. Think of movement of the monstrance at benediction, and you have the same basic idea. Once, at St. Peter's in Cincinnati, the deacon who had just read the gospel handed the book to the bishop, took the thurible from an acolyte, and censed the book while the bishop was making the blessing. I've never seen that anywhere else.
I am surprised more people haven't seen this; every time I have seen a Catholic bishop celebrate in the Ordinary Form, it has happened. I saw an Anglican bishop do it once. It is clearly an affectation, but it seems harmless enough to me.
The retired (Anglican) Bishop of Salisbury, David Stancliffe, when he came to visit us, did this very thing. I asked him later to explain to me why the celebrant blesses the deacon before s/he goes out to proclaim the Gospel, and here's what he said (as I recall it):
He said the deacon carrying the Gospel out to the people is connected with the Father sending the Son (the Word) out into the world. The blessing of the deacon, then, isn't instilling something they already received at their ordination (which is how it's always looked to me, I must admit), but rather an act of sending. Then, after the Gospel reading, the Book is returned to the celebrant, who then blesses the people with it because God's Word does not return void; it has an effect, which the blessing of the people with the Book represents. I hope I've done his explanation some justice here!
We didn't adopt that practice when he left, but it was interesting to see and to think about. I'd be interested to know if this really is the origin of the practice, or if it's a theological explanation made after-the-fact. Now I can't remember if Dr. Stancliffe was implying any celebrant should/could do this, or just bishops. He tended to switch between saying "bishop" and "celebrant" or "priest," possibly because he's a bishop and was partly explaining his own practice - particularly because I was asking him to explain what I saw him doing. Sometimes he'd say "bishop" but catch himself and quickly add, "or priest," and I didn't pay much attention to when or whether he really made a distinction there.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
]I always thought the "Peruvian" Gloria in the Kevin Mayhew books was like the "Caribbean" Our Father in the same books, i.e. composed by Europeans who threw in a few syncopations so that it could pass as reminiscent of the music of another culture.
I know we've been told to be careful what we say about the works of the Blessed Kevin, but to my uninformed ear it does rather sound like this might be the case.
It's particularly a pity that this gets the label of 'Peruvian Gloria' when you think of all that really cracking baroque church music from Peru and thereabouts that has been rediscovered in recent years.
It seems rather an unkind thing to saddle Peru with, somehow, after they were so kind as to give us Paddington Bear... [/QB]
I think the Peruvian Gloria would elicit a particularly strong Paddington Hard Stare.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
So, during the sede vacante all the world skips the petition for the pope in the EP. Does the Diocese of Rome skip the petition for the Bishop of Rome as well? I would think so. And, I've never thought of this before, but when there is a pope do the priests of his diocese pray for the pope, the bishop, or both?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
The formula for the Roman Church is "N. our Pope and Bishop". So indeed they currently name no-one.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Question: Does anyone know where the fashion of making the sign of the cross at the word "resurrection" in the creeds came from? It used to be at "life everlasting" and now everybody wants to do it at this new place.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Question: Does anyone know where the fashion of making the sign of the cross at the word "resurrection" in the creeds came from? It used to be at "life everlasting" and now everybody wants to do it at this new place.
In the Extraordinary Form of the Latin Mass, which is the pre-Vatican II rite, the cross is made at the words et vitam venturam saeculi--the life of the world to come. That is what we do in our EF parish. In the Ordinary Form, which is the post-Vatican II Roman Rite, there is no sign of the cross made at all during the creed.
What you have described, which is, I presume, an Anglican parish, appears to be a localized phenomenon, since neither the BCP and Common Worship do not specify specific crossings at this point, and never did.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
We anglo-catholics copied RC practice and crossed ourselves at the end of the creed (and at the end of the gloia and the start of the Benedictus.)
When Vatican 2 reforms happened, those of us in anglo-catholic churches were 'instructed' not to do so any more. We were told that these things were 'out.'
However, these customs spread to MOTR parishes among some people. Not thus instructed, they continue to do it 40 years later. There are many in my parish.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We anglo-catholics copied RC practice and crossed ourselves at the end of the creed (and at the end of the gloia and the start of the Benedictus.)
When Vatican 2 reforms happened, those of us in anglo-catholic churches were 'instructed' not to do so any more. We were told that these things were 'out.'
However, these customs spread to MOTR parishes among some people. Not thus instructed, they continue to do it 40 years later. There are many in my parish.
Yes, I grew up AC and we also did all of the crossings in our 1928 BCP and Anglican Missal ceremonies. When I relocated to another state, I went to an AC parish that used rite II of the 1979 BCP, but interestingly, they still did all of the same crossings.
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Except nowadays it really has become fashionable among a certain set to make it at the word "resurrection" for obvious reasons. I don't like it, but what can you do? If it isn't in any official rule book, then it's hardly wrong, just ignorantly invincibly affected?
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Question: Does anyone know where the fashion of making the sign of the cross at the word "resurrection" in the creeds came from? It used to be at "life everlasting" and now everybody wants to do it at this new place.
Possibly the signing has been re- (or mis-) interpreted as an expression of the hope of resurrection, rather than a seal of the entire Creed.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Years ago I seem to remember reading in some high church Anglican manual crossing ourselves at "the resurrection of the body" in the Apostle's Creed is to remind us that this body is to rise again.
I've never done it.
And where did turning east for the Apostle's creed come in? It is almost universal non-evangelical Anglican practice, but I'm not aware of any pre-Victorian precedent.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
The May 2002 (pdf) issue of Ecclesiology Today has an article on liturgical practices in Cambridge college chapels which includes a table (p11) giving information about the chapels where they turned east and for what parts of the liturgy in 1641, so that's something pre-Victorian.
[ 07. March 2013, 07:56: Message edited by: seasick ]
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Thank you. I'd still be interested where the custom came from - since the Apostle's Creed was not part of pre-Reformation Vespers.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Thank you. I'd still be interested where the custom came from - since the Apostle's Creed was not part of pre-Reformation Vespers.
It was, however, part of pre-Reformation Compline--and Evening Prayer is a telescoping of those two evening offices.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Years ago I seem to remember reading in some high church Anglican manual crossing ourselves at "the resurrection of the body" in the Apostle's Creed is to remind us that this body is to rise again.
I've never done it.
And where did turning east for the Apostle's creed come in? It is almost universal non-evangelical Anglican practice, but I'm not aware of any pre-Victorian precedent.
I thought the crossing at the end of the creed was a reminder of our baptism - when we or our godparents were asked whether they believed in it.
Turning east, in the choir, for creed, glorias and doxologies looks silly when there is a nave altar. They are turning AWAY from the altar in use.
[ 07. March 2013, 16:41: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Turning east, in the choir, for creed, glorias and doxologies looks silly when there is a nave altar. They are turning AWAY from the altar in use.
I agree it can look odd, but we aren't turning towards the altar, we are turning in the direction of our heavenly home, and the direction from which Christ will come in glory. You wouldn't want to have your back to him when that happens, especially if you are professing your faith in him at that moment.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Another thread reminded me of a question that confuses me.
I call the rope-like Eucharistic vestment around the alb the "girdle" and the sash-like thing around the cassock the cincture.
Others call the rope-like thing the cincture, and I don't know what they call the sash-like thing.
Is this an Anglican/RC divide or pond thing? Or simply age of the speakers?
I've always called the ancient white Eucharistic vestment traditionally worn over an amice which is on the shoulders over a cassock the "alb," and upon which is girded a girdle, etc.
Others use the word "alb" for the confection invented in recent decades which is worn over street clothes and upon which is hung a very wide, uncrossed stole.
So we have the same words in use for very different items.
Am I the only one who is confused?
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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