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Source: (consider it) Thread: Miscellaneous questions of a liturgical nature
leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
As a member of the laity, what - if anything - should I wear, in addition to my normal clothes, when I am preaching and acting as deacon at a Eucharist?

Depends a little on your precise candle-notch, and what exactly you mean by 'acting as deacon', but I should think cassock, amice + alb, & dalmatic, sans stole or maniple.
If your church is of a more Reformed bent, then perhaps cassock and surplice.

This talk of a layman "acting as a deacon" is foreign to me--including the notion of wearing a dalmatic. [Help]
It's encouraged in Common Worship if there isn't a real deacon present. I often do it and wear it.

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malik3000
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Codepoet:
In the Church of England, is a faculty required to move a free standing east facing altar so that it be used west-facing?

Almost certainly if it is a permanent fixture. Like certainly certainly.

I suppose if anyone objected you could say its a movable table that just happens not to have been moved for a few years. But this is exactly the sort of thing that people you have never met or herd of suddenly turn up and complain about, so its worth doing it by the book.

I suspect that there are archdeacons in your future.

Am I correct in assuming that this "faculty requirement" business, for whether or not a church may move its altar around, is a CofE thing with no equivalent in the ECUSA of a need for administrative higher-up approval?

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Qoheleth.

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
[qb] As a member of the laity, what - if anything - should I wear, in addition to my normal clothes, when I am preaching and acting as deacon at a Eucharist?

Depends a little on your precise candle-notch, and what exactly you mean by 'acting as deacon', but I should think cassock, amice + alb, & dalmatic, sans stole or maniple.
If your church is of a more Reformed bent, then perhaps cassock and surplice.

This talk of a layman "acting as a deacon" is foreign to me--including the notion of wearing a dalmatic. [Help]
It's encouraged in Common Worship if there isn't a real deacon present. I often do it and wear it.
Same happens here with lay Dn and S-Dn if insufficient priests/deacons are available.

[Edit: the a-symmetry was upsetting me]

[ 25. May 2013, 21:51: Message edited by: Zappa ]

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Ceremoniar
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Why would a layman wear a dalmatic and act as a deacon? If there is no priest, does a layman wear a chasuble? Not getting it. [Confused]
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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Codepoet:
In the Church of England, is a faculty required to move a free standing east facing altar so that it be used west-facing?

Almost certainly if it is a permanent fixture. Like certainly certainly.

I suppose if anyone objected you could say its a movable table that just happens not to have been moved for a few years. But this is exactly the sort of thing that people you have never met or herd of suddenly turn up and complain about, so its worth doing it by the book.

I suspect that there are archdeacons in your future.

Am I correct in assuming that this "faculty requirement" business, for whether or not a church may move its altar around, is a CofE thing with no equivalent in the ECUSA of a need for administrative higher-up approval?
Correct. In the USA the congregation represented by the vestry are the owners or trustees of the Episcopal or Anglican parish church. As a result they have a much freer hand. The grey area is when the building is registered as a site of historical interest at either local, state, or national level. When the place is registered then a variety of non-parish bodies have a vested interest in what the rector and vestry get up to, and this can be a bit of a headache. Far nastier in fact than the English quirk of one needing a faculty, as Archdeacons and their advisors tend to be a bit more reasonable than historical societies.

PD

[ 26. May 2013, 02:38: Message edited by: PD ]

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Tukai
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What colour raiment would traditionally be worn by an [Anglican] priest on Trinity Sunday?

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Angloid
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That's an easy one. White.

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Qoheleth.

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quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Why would a layman wear a dalmatic and act as a deacon? If there is no priest, does a layman wear a chasuble? Not getting it. [Confused]

We have no priest-monks (unsurprisingly), so our, lay, choir wears cassock and surplice.

[ 26. May 2013, 12:24: Message edited by: Qoheleth. ]

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Emendator Liturgia
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PD - obviously you have never had to encounter British Heritage, or the List Monuments Board - from what I have been told by friends in the UK these encounters are often horrendous affairs!

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Why would a layman wear a dalmatic and act as a deacon? If there is no priest, does a layman wear a chasuble? Not getting it. [Confused]

No. A priest is essential for a eucharist, a deacon isn't.

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Far nastier in fact than the English quirk of one needing a faculty, as Archdeacons and their advisors tend to be a bit more reasonable than historical societies.

This is rather like the case in Quebec, where since the Quiet Revolution there are more churches of historical worth than can be sustained by their denominations alone. There is a kind of Diyanet, the government's religious patrimony office, which provides assistance and in in turn has a say in maintenance. When I was a stagiaire, there was some business about the roof needing attention, but in a manner consonant with its original architecture, and the patrimony money helped to bridge the difference in cost between a simple fix, and the (naturally more expensive) period-authentic reconstruction.
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Ceremoniar
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Why would a layman wear a dalmatic and act as a deacon? If there is no priest, does a layman wear a chasuble? Not getting it. [Confused]

No. A priest is essential for a eucharist, a deacon isn't.
Agreed, but I don't see how a layman can vest and function (as in reading the gospel) as someone in major orders, when he is not.
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seasick

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It's encouraged in Common Worship if there isn't a real deacon present. I often do it and wear it.

Do you have a reference for this?

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It's encouraged in Common Worship if there isn't a real deacon present. I often do it and wear it.

Do you have a reference for this?
From the General Notes to the order for the Holy Communion in Common Worship: Principal Services:

quote:
In some traditions the ministry of the deacon at Holy Communion has included some of the following elements: the bringing in of the Book of the Gospels, the invitation to confession, the reading of the Gospel, the preaching of the sermon when licensed to do so, a part in the prayers of intercession, the preparation of the table and the gifts, a part in the distribution, the ablutions and the dismissal.

The deacon's liturgical ministry provides an appropriate model for the ministry of an assisting priest, a Reader, or another episcopally authorized minister in a leadership ministry that complements that of the president.


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sebby
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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It's encouraged in Common Worship if there isn't a real deacon present. I often do it and wear it.

Do you have a reference for this?
Presumably without the stole?

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scuffleball
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When + why + how (what books) did people stop saying holy ghost (because of ghosts that go woooooo?)

[ 26. May 2013, 21:12: Message edited by: scuffleball ]

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Offeiriad

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Both 'Ghost' and 'Spirit' (more of the former than the latter though) have appeared in the Books of Common Prayer since 1549. I think the balance tipped in favour of 'Spirit' from Series 2 (1967)onwards,presumably because the word 'Ghost' has come to be linked in the popular mind with unholy hauntings.
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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
PD - obviously you have never had to encounter British Heritage, or the List Monuments Board - from what I have been told by friends in the UK these encounters are often horrendous affairs!

They always left us alone. The Victorians had done a thorough, and it has to be said, rather crappy, job on both our churches. In my time English Heritage got really heavy when it comes to structural stuff, but were pretty easy going when it came to sorting out ill-advised changes less than 100 years old. However, I do understand they are more of a PITA when it comes to removing pews etc. these days. However, this is a different regimen than the one that was operative when I left the UK in 1999.

PD

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Hezekiah
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Hmm, I was at a Carthusian Rite Mass yesterday (in the Extern Chapel of St Hugh's Charterhouse, Parkminster) and when the monk saying Mass removed his vestments at the end of mass I noticed that the hood of his alb, into which the hood of his habit fitted, was separate and had strings like an amice.

Has anyone ever seen this sort of thing before?

(Also, if anyone is curious, I believe he removed his vestments there as they stay in the chapel, which is a little walk away from the Priory church and its sacristy. Then again, it's the Carthusian Rite so lots of things are a little different).

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Hezekiah:
Hmm, I was at a Carthusian Rite Mass yesterday (in the Extern Chapel of St Hugh's Charterhouse, Parkminster) and when the monk saying Mass removed his vestments at the end of mass I noticed that the hood of his alb, into which the hood of his habit fitted, was separate and had strings like an amice.

Has anyone ever seen this sort of thing before?

I've seen Anglican Franciscans wear a hood-shaped amice over the hood of their habit. Not recently though: I don't know how they manage with cassock-albs.

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Hezekiah
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That's interesting, thanks for pointing it out.

The Carthusian Mass was amazing; only the lay brother serving the Mass said the responses - the congregation stayed completely silent and largely kneeling throughout. Most of the Mass was said silently and after Communion (given kneeling, on the tongue, through the grill with the lay brother holding the paten under the communicant's chin) the Priest sat in silence with his hood up for at least five minutes before the ablutions. Since I only live 15 minutes away I think I might go regularly on Sundays.

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Carys

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quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
Both 'Ghost' and 'Spirit' (more of the former than the latter though) have appeared in the Books of Common Prayer since 1549. I think the balance tipped in favour of 'Spirit' from Series 2 (1967)onwards,presumably because the word 'Ghost' has come to be linked in the popular mind with unholy hauntings.

Indeed Cosin's Come Holy Ghost has both in the same prayer ending as it does with Spirit to rhyme with merit.

Spirit not Ghost (and you not thou to the priest) is the major linguistic change in the CinW 1984 BCP.

Carys

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Vulpior

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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
PD - obviously you have never had to encounter British Heritage, or the List Monuments Board - from what I have been told by friends in the UK these encounters are often horrendous affairs!

They always left us alone. The Victorians had done a thorough, and it has to be said, rather crappy, job on both our churches. In my time English Heritage got really heavy when it comes to structural stuff, but were pretty easy going when it came to sorting out ill-advised changes less than 100 years old. However, I do understand they are more of a PITA when it comes to removing pews etc. these days. However, this is a different regimen than the one that was operative when I left the UK in 1999.

PD

Imagine a church built in Georgian times, added to by the Victorians, and sited in Bath. Grade II listed. You have potential for conflict with the Georgian Society, the Victorian Society, the Bath Preservation Trust...

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AndyB
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Not quite the same thing, but related as it discusses confusion over what is "original" in relation to conservation and restoration...

My then church needed major refurbishment to its organ, and rather than giving it to a local organ builder, they got Heritage Lottery Funding and it went to NP Mander at four times the cost (and thus not saving a penny!)

Manders did a very fine job of restoring the organ, an 1875 Hill expanded with additional stops (including a pedal 16' Trombone more felt than heard and with many many harmonics) and a small Choir (beautiful 8' Clarinet stop and perfect 8'-4'-2' clear open flutes) in 1906 to its proper post-expansion state, although my dad, the then organist, would rather have had modernisation instead, ie electric action rather than pneumatic, moving the balanced swell pedal to the middle where it had replaced an old kick-pedal, and user-changeable pistons.

However, it took quite some persuasion to get Manders not to restore the previous and rather strange (not to mention unusable) piston settings, even though, as my dad pointed out, they were obviously not original. He did win the argument in the end, but it wasn't easy!

[ 29. May 2013, 12:04: Message edited by: AndyB ]

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Carys

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I gather that St Martin's in the Fields had a conflict between the Georgian Society and the Victorian Society over their restoration...

Carys

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Carys

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I gather that St Martin's in the Fields had a conflict between the Georgian Society and the Victorian Society over their restoration...

Carys

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
I gather that St Martin's in the Fields had a conflict between the Georgian Society and the Victorian Society over their restoration...

Carys

I have a dim feeling I would favour the Georgian Society's claims over those of the Victorian Society. The simple reason for this is that the Victorians messed-up an awful lot of perfectly workable Georgian Churches by trying to shove them into the Ecclesiological Society mould.

PD

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Angloid
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Georgian churches, like Georgian houses, are very adaptable. Victorian ones less so.

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PD
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I have a major dislike of the typical Victorian Church with its narrow chancel and half-acre of choirstalls between the nave and the altar. The less reverently mediaevalist Victorian architects - Butterfield springs to mind - usually designed the more workable churches. ASMS and St Mark's, Dundela, both have short wide chancels and this tends to make the mediaeval arrangement much more workable for the Anglican liturgy which as a high emphasis on both seeing and hearing - unlike that of the high Middle Ages.

However, for really bolloxed up arrangements, cack-handed restorations of mediaeval buildings take some beating. I remember one small14th century church near where I grew up where the architect had perched the altar on so many steps that one dare not bow or genflectfor fear that you would fall backwards off the top step. This was with an altar barely as wide as the corporal!

PD

[ 30. May 2013, 15:34: Message edited by: PD ]

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
I gather that St Martin's in the Fields had a conflict between the Georgian Society and the Victorian Society over their restoration...

Carys

I have a dim feeling I would favour the Georgian Society's claims over those of the Victorian Society. The simple reason for this is that the Victorians messed-up an awful lot of perfectly workable Georgian Churches by trying to shove them into the Ecclesiological Society mould.

You should read what William Morris had to say about those "restorers"! One of the reasons he founded the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings was to save old churches from cackhanded restoration - more of a danger than demolition in those days.

Morris loved the way that an old and much-modified building like a church is the product of generations of workers each contributing their own thought and skill and work to it. It holds the history of the community it serves. If you try to wipe out all that and return it to some supposed pristine state you will wipe out that history, destroy the community's memory of itself, throw away all that work as if the folk who did it didn't count.

Even worse if the intended end of the restoration is some sort of fake neo-gothic fantasy and not really very much like the original building at all. (Not that Morris and Webb and their friends had anything against neo-gothic - they built their own houses in that sytle - but they didn't destroy the genuinely old to make way for it)

On the other hand, if we now, a century and a half later, want to respect the history of our badly restored churches, we now have to respect the work of the restorers as well because that too has become part of the story of the building and the people who use it!

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Bishops Finger
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Indeed - but these days, in order to render churches more flexible and useable, it really is necessary (IMNSHO) to clear everything out and to start again, with just the basic minimum of furnishings required.......

Yes, I have read (and agree with) Richard Giles!

Ian J.

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Barefoot Friar

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If a clergyperson were going to an ordination service as a member of the congregation, what would be the preferred appropriate dress? Let's assume an Anglican context. Choir dress? Habit of the religious order of which he/she is a member? Clergy collar with either black suit or cassock?

[ 06. June 2013, 12:02: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]

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Vade Mecum
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quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
If a clergyperson were going to an ordination service as a member of the congregation, what would be the preferred appropriate dress? Let's assume an Anglican context. Choir dress? Habit of the religious order of which he/she is a member? Clergy collar with either black suit or cassock?

Cassock/Clericals. Choir dress only if actually sitting in quire/choir. Where wearers of habits are not required to wear them at all times, the choice would be theirs, though I'd plump for rather than against.

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Wearing choir dress in the congregation would be ridiculous. For a church do, it would be appropriate to wear clericals, ie dog collar. We had a member of the Society of St Margaret regularly attending our services. She didn't wear a habit there, nor when in her house.

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
seasick

...over the edge
# 48

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If I, a Methodist minister, were going to an Anglican ordination and sitting in the congregation, I would turn up in black suit, shirt and tonsure collar.

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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Amos

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# 44

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Normally when I go to an ordination I vest and process, but this year three of a certain ordinand's best friends are close friends of mine too, and haven't previously attended an ordination. So I'll be sitting with them (in clericals, but not a cassock), having taught them over lunch how to play Londin Bingo.

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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AngloCatholicGirl
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# 16435

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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
I gather that St Martin's in the Fields had a conflict between the Georgian Society and the Victorian Society over their restoration...

Carys

I have a dim feeling I would favour the Georgian Society's claims over those of the Victorian Society. The simple reason for this is that the Victorians messed-up an awful lot of perfectly workable Georgian Churches by trying to shove them into the Ecclesiological Society mould.

PD

It is certainly my experience that the Georgian Society is more helpful and sensible than the Victorian Society (whom seem to labour under the belief that Victorian churches exsist solely for the purpose of visiting and pontificating over and heaven forbid if the congregation want to make a change that might benefit an actual user of the building).

We recently had to renew the roof of our Georgian church and we found both the Georgian society and English Heritage to be helpful and realistic. ISTM that English Heritage have got a bit more realistic and approachable over the care I'd listed buildings recently and are willing to listen. The use of lead substitutes on the roofs of a couple of churches who had had sustained and habitual lead theft problems springs to mind.

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Love is the wisdom of the fool and the folly of the wise -Samuel Johnson

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Percy B
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# 17238

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I hope this is the right thread...

Just wanting a bit of opinion. Anyone used the Daily Prayer Rosary book?

What thoughts? Good, not so good, not recommended or...
I see its designed to go, somehow, with Common Worship.

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Mary, a priest??

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venbede
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# 16669

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I've been saying the Rosary every day in May in addition to Common Worship Daily Prayer. What else do you need?

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Percy B
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# 17238

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I think the book integrates the two, and is for more than May Venbede.

But I am interested to know if others have used it.

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Mary, a priest??

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Thurible
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# 3206

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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Wearing choir dress in the congregation would be ridiculous. For a church do, it would be appropriate to wear clericals, ie dog collar. We had a member of the Society of St Margaret regularly attending our services. She didn't wear a habit there, nor when in her house.

I did see a photo of a female Anglican priest sitting in the congregation at a Catholic ordination wearing cotta and stole. I did wonder if the ordinand had suggested it, though, as said priest is going out with his brother - a sort of "you're almost family but I can't iinvite you to robe formally - perhaps you could do this instead!"

Thurible

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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

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Vade Mecum
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# 17688

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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I did see a photo of a female Anglican priest sitting in the congregation at a Catholic ordination wearing cotta and stole. I did wonder if the ordinand had suggested it, though, as said priest is going out with his brother - a sort of "you're almost family but I can't iinvite you to robe formally - perhaps you could do this instead!"

Thurible

What incredibly bad form, even if the Ordinand did invite her to do so (and why on earth would he do that?)

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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

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Olaf
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# 11804

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I know Catholic priests who would not have minded. One typically expects visitors from other churches in the community, and in this case, it was practically family. I certainly hope they did not banish the poor woman into the nave simply because she was a woman. If there were an ecumenical delegation, she belonged with them. I have no doubt that even Pope Benedict wouldn't have raised an eyelid if a Lutheran bishop from Germany had shown up vested as part of an ecumenical delegation.
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Trisagion
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# 5235

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What do you mean by "...even Pope Benedict..."?

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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I strongly suspect that Pope Benedict has often attended liturgical ceremonies at which German Protestant bishops have been dressed as bishops. Just as he has with English Protestant bishops.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Olaf
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# 11804

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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
What do you mean by "...even Pope Benedict..."?

If a pope with obvious traditionalist leanings were to have no problem with it, then a new ordinand certainly has no reason to worry.
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Trisagion
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# 5235

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quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
What do you mean by "...even Pope Benedict..."?

If a pope with obvious traditionalist leanings were to have no problem with it, then a new ordinand certainly has no reason to worry.
Ah, crass caricature.

Met any Popes without obvious traditionalist leanings?

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Bostonman
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# 17108

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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Met any Popes without obvious traditionalist leanings?

The way some people have been banging on about Francis, I'd assume Benedict was mentioned so nobody would pop up and say "Oh, Francis, sure, he'd let a Muslim woman do it, so a Lutheran wouldn't be much trouble."
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Olaf
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# 11804

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quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Met any Popes without obvious traditionalist leanings?

The way some people have been banging on about Francis, I'd assume Benedict was mentioned so nobody would pop up and say "Oh, Francis, sure, he'd let a Muslim woman do it, so a Lutheran wouldn't be much trouble."
Why use Francis as an example? He hasn't given much to go on yet, unless one is up on the news from his days in Argentina. Benedict has been at the Vatican for decades in high-profile positions.
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The Silent Acolyte

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# 1158

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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Met any Popes without obvious traditionalist leanings?

You say "traditionalist" like it could be a good thing.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged



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