|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: The Sign of Peace - Why?
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
That's beautiful, Ken. I wish I could "like" it, but how to tell the congo it isn't a pre-fellowship meet and greet?
I think sometimes people are asked simply to share the peace with the people on either side of them, and perhaps with those sitting before or behind them. But the minister has to feel confident about introducing this in a church where it's not usual.
I've noticed that when a service is deemed to be overrunning a hymn is often cut from the 'programme'. Well, if it's a Communion service, the minister could leave the hymn alone but reduce the time given for sharing the peace, in the way I've just mentioned.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
posted by Mama Thomas quote:
...how to tell the congo it isn't a pre-fellowship meet and greet?
The Peace had become disruptive at our shack so the PP tackled it by pointing out it wasn't intended to be a general free-for-all, rather a symbolic greeting with those geographically closest to us.
He concluded with something along these lines:
We share Christ's peace with those standing closest to us; meeting and greeting other members of the congregation takes place after the service, either at coffee or just before you leave church if you're not staying for refreshments.
Only one person took offence - but they tend to take offence at virtually everything anyway.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Abigail
Shipmate
# 1672
|
Posted
I wasn't going to comment, but...
At my church the peace lasts anything between eight and twelve minutes*. We are encouraged to go and get a cup of tea or coffee and chat with friends or greet someone we don’t know. I’ve even heard "it’s a good time to make new friends" ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Sometimes it's hard to get people back and often half the congregation are still chatting during the next song.
We’ve been doing this for over five years now and most people seem to like it. I think it’s completely inappropriate, disruptive, and for someone like me who can’t do "small talk" excruciatingly uncomfortable. And lonely. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
*Yes, I've timed it
--------------------
The older I get the less I know.
Posts: 505 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
If you've been there for over 5 years you must have come up with some strategies. What do you do? And have you spoken about your feelings with the minister or lay leaders?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Abigail:
I wasn't going to comment, but...
At my church the peace lasts anything between eight and twelve minutes*. We are encouraged to go and get a cup of tea or coffee and chat with friends or greet someone we don’t know. I’ve even heard "it’s a good time to make new friends"
Sometimes it's hard to get people back and often half the congregation are still chatting during the next song.
We’ve been doing this for over five years now and most people seem to like it. I think it’s completely inappropriate, disruptive, and for someone like me who can’t do "small talk" excruciatingly uncomfortable. And lonely.
*Yes, I've timed it
You have my considerable sympathy.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
It does sometimes seem as if there is something a bit precious in objections to the Peace. An over-fastidious desire to keep distant from the messy lives or bodies of other people. The opposite of an incarnational spirituality.
The Peace is one of those rituals that, like ashing, or footwashing,or Christmas cribs, or the Hail Mary, or Holy Communion itself, provides a sort of immunity to Gnosticism and spiritual elitism.
Ken's right. In my youth, the Peace was a versicle and response, nothing more.
Same here - and we younger ones did furtive handshakes to make up for it.
I now wish that we hadn't encouraged it.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
It does sometimes seem as if there is something a bit precious in objections to the Peace. An over-fastidious desire to keep distant from the messy lives or bodies of other people. The opposite of an incarnational spirituality.
The Peace is one of those rituals that, like ashing, or footwashing,or Christmas cribs, or the Hail Mary, or Holy Communion itself, provides a sort of immunity to Gnosticism and spiritual elitism.
Ken's right. In my youth, the Peace was a versicle and response, nothing more.
Same here - and we younger ones did furtive handshakes to make up for it.
I now wish that we hadn't encouraged it.
I'm obviously missing something but to me, GeeD's and Leo's responses seem to be utterly opposed to Ken's comment?
[Speaking as someone who loathes the Peace when forced to endure it in ecumenical contexts!]
--------------------
"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
It does sometimes seem as if there is something a bit precious in objections to the Peace. An over-fastidious desire to keep distant from the messy lives or bodies of other people. The opposite of an incarnational spirituality.
The Peace is one of those rituals that, like ashing, or footwashing,or Christmas cribs, or the Hail Mary, or Holy Communion itself, provides a sort of immunity to Gnosticism and spiritual elitism.
Gosh, I'd often thought ken was a Good Catholic without realising it, and now I know for sure.
The open coffin at a funeral (standard Orthodox and West Indian practice) is another example of the opposite of "keeping distant from the messy lives or bodies of other people".
A number of Orthodox here have objected to the peace. Do they object to the open coffin?
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
... meanwhile, over in Heaven a poster has admitted to using sanitising hand gel after the SoP ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Abigail - I'm amazed you still go to the same church/service: I'd have moved on to pastures more sane long ago.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
It does sometimes seem as if there is something a bit precious in objections to the Peace. An over-fastidious desire to keep distant from the messy lives or bodies of other people. The opposite of an incarnational spirituality.
The Peace is one of those rituals that, like ashing, or footwashing,or Christmas cribs, or the Hail Mary, or Holy Communion itself, provides a sort of immunity to Gnosticism and spiritual elitism.
Gosh, I'd often thought ken was a Good Catholic without realising it, and now I know for sure.
The open coffin at a funeral (standard Orthodox and West Indian practice) is another example of the opposite of "keeping distant from the messy lives or bodies of other people".
A number of Orthodox here have objected to the peace. Do they object to the open coffin?
Another one of those false dichotomies. Personally, it's not that I object to closness, I object to naffness.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
I can't remember if I have yet shared the story I heard from a bishop who had served in the Church in South Africa which is maybe apposite...
He had had to travel to a parish in another part of SA to cover services for another priest, and was quite eager to rush off afterwards again. When it came to the time for the Sign of Peace, the congregation seemed to be taking a long time about it (shaking hands, wandering around, chatting, and all the other things we've discussed in such gruesome detail on this thread). So, he decided to hurry things along a bit and called out in the local language 'Sing! Sing!' to encourage them to move on to the Offertory Hymn.
Except that he didn't, because it turned out that the people in that parish spoke a different dialect from the one he was used to, and what he actually shouted was 'Dance! Dance!'... and the congregation thought this was a great idea and promptly began to dance with each other.
He told us that to this day the churches in that part of South Africa have the tradition to exchange the Peace by the whole congregation getting up and having a big dance. So I'd say that those who feel that their worship is being disrupted by 'too many handshakes' might want to reflect that mileage varies. Or, at the least to count their blessings!
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
|
Posted
We always had the versicle and response - well since about 1967 - but we didn't do the Peace as such until the mid-1980s. Does this mean it's all Margaret Thatcher's fault? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
I didn't like it at first but I've got used to it and I think I'd probably miss it if it were left out. It's enough though I think to shake hands with the people nearest you and not go walkabout the church - that's all it is, is passing the Peace of God. Christ's Peace in other words - it's not a social occasion - although I do agree with Ken I think when he points out the incarnational aspect of this
The other thing is - don't foist it on people - if a stranger - let's say - is in church is reluctant to shake hands then just a smile can go a long way........
--------------------
Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
It does sometimes seem as if there is something a bit precious in objections to the Peace. An over-fastidious desire to keep distant from the messy lives or bodies of other people. The opposite of an incarnational spirituality.
The Peace is one of those rituals that, like ashing, or footwashing,or Christmas cribs, or the Hail Mary, or Holy Communion itself, provides a sort of immunity to Gnosticism and spiritual elitism.
Gosh, I'd often thought ken was a Good Catholic without realising it, and now I know for sure.
The open coffin at a funeral (standard Orthodox and West Indian practice) is another example of the opposite of "keeping distant from the messy lives or bodies of other people".
A number of Orthodox here have objected to the peace. Do they object to the open coffin?
Another one of those false dichotomies. Personally, it's not that I object to closness, I object to naffness.
But why is shaking hands with your brothers and sisters in Christ naff? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I don't like an overly informal/long SoP, but shaking hands with those immediately around you is like Ken says, a reminder of the physicality of the Incarnation.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Abigail
Shipmate
# 1672
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
If you've been there for over 5 years you must have come up with some strategies. What do you do? And have you spoken about your feelings with the minister or lay leaders?
I’ve tried different things at different times. When it started I would just stay in my seat looking disapproving and refuse all offers of a cup of coffee. Then I tried to be a bit more friendly - join in and find someone to talk to, but it always felt uncomfortable. On a really bad day I go outside for a few minutes. Usually I just wander around and smile a bit and go back to my seat before most other people.
Yes, the two clergy both know what I think about it and I’ve discussed it quite a lot with the one I know best. He understands how I feel and is sympathetic, but mine is very much a minority view so nothing’s going to change.
--------------------
The older I get the less I know.
Posts: 505 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Abigail
Shipmate
# 1672
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Abigail - I'm amazed you still go to the same church/service: I'd have moved on to pastures more sane long ago.
Well, I do give it a miss sometimes and go to our 9am communion service instead. I quite enjoy the peace there. Everybody shakes hands with everybody else but I have no problem with that. There are usually between about 8 to 15 people there so it’s quite manageable. (However there are other reasons why I don’t want to make that my permanent ‘home’)
[Edit: UBB]
[ 26. January 2014, 04:24: Message edited by: Zappa ]
--------------------
The older I get the less I know.
Posts: 505 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
Garasu, if you read all of my post - not just the small section quote by Leo - you will see that I do agree with Ken. The expression of the Peace now being observed is a great move forward from the simple versicle/response to which I contrasted it.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Abigail:
I wasn't going to comment, but...
At my church the peace lasts anything between eight and twelve minutes*. We are encouraged to go and get a cup of tea or coffee and chat with friends or greet someone we don’t know. I’ve even heard "it’s a good time to make new friends"
Holey. Flaming. Moley.
--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Abigail:
I wasn't going to comment, but...
At my church the peace lasts anything between eight and twelve minutes*. We are encouraged to go and get a cup of tea or coffee and chat with friends or greet someone we don’t know. I’ve even heard "it’s a good time to make new friends"
*Yes, I've timed it
Yikes. Having read this I thought I'd time it at our place this morning. Time between "Let us offer one another a sign of peace" and start of offertory hymn c30secs. But the president and preacher wander through nave sharing peace during start of hymn, though congregant to congregant handshakes tend to stop with start of hymn. But even timing to the point when celebrant shared peace with me (verger) on his way past the soundbooth was only c2.15mins. So nothing like what Abigail describes.
Carys
--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
Abigail
Trying to be positive about it, eight minutes is a good bit of time to do something useful. If that were me, I'd go to the loo, have a bite to eat (cereal bar, tangerine, cheesy bites, etc., as I don't normally have breakfast before leaving for church), peruse my diary, go to the church notice board and write down any useful information, etc. A younger person would probably check their Facebook account, or Twitter. An anthropologist, artist or poet might go to a hidden spot and observe the scene, for future reference....
I suppose some folk would see this sort of thing as unholy and disrespectful, although I'd see it more as bringing all of our concerns and interests to God's presence and asking him to bless them. But the obvious alternative to all of this activity is to find a secluded corner during this time and simply pray. There's so little time during church services for personal prayer, and I'd appreciate much more. But that's just me!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
It does sometimes seem as if there is something a bit precious in objections to the Peace. An over-fastidious desire to keep distant from the messy lives or bodies of other people. The opposite of an incarnational spirituality.
The Peace is one of those rituals that, like ashing, or footwashing,or Christmas cribs, or the Hail Mary, or Holy Communion itself, provides a sort of immunity to Gnosticism and spiritual elitism.
Gosh, I'd often thought ken was a Good Catholic without realising it, and now I know for sure.
The open coffin at a funeral (standard Orthodox and West Indian practice) is another example of the opposite of "keeping distant from the messy lives or bodies of other people".
A number of Orthodox here have objected to the peace. Do they object to the open coffin?
Another one of those false dichotomies. Personally, it's not that I object to closness, I object to naffness.
But why is shaking hands with your brothers and sisters in Christ naff?
I don't like an overly informal/long SoP, but shaking hands with those immediately around you is like Ken says, a reminder of the physicality of the Incarnation.
That's just more made up theology. Thank goodness I don't have to put up with it anymore. In my last days as an RC I even refused to attend the new liturgy.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
That's just more made up theology.
It must be so wonderful to be privy to an entirely uncreated theology, as yours must be. I wish I didn't have to sully my hands interacting with other people in order to work out my salvation with fear and trembling! I wish mine had just dropped pure and undefiled from heaven.
But no, my silly God invited us to encounter His magnificent divinity by taking on messy human flesh, and allowed that body to be pierced by our sin, offers it to my unholy lips and declared through His holy word that the ragtag band of followers I fall in with each week can truly be named His body. So, I think I'll reverence that if it doesn't offend you too much.
[ 26. January 2014, 16:35: Message edited by: Hart ]
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
AO - do you not believe in a physical Incarnation?
How is that made up theology when it's just standard Trinitarian Christian theology? And surely all theology is man-made to an extent?
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
That's just more made up theology.
It must be so wonderful to be privy to an entirely uncreated theology, as yours must be. I wish I didn't have to sully my hands interacting with other people in order to work out my salvation with fear and trembling! I wish mine had just dropped pure and undefiled from heaven.
But no, my silly God invited us to encounter His magnificent divinity by taking on messy human flesh, and allowed that body to be pierced by our sin, offers it to my unholy lips and declared through His holy word that the ragtag band of followers I fall in with each week can truly be named His body. So, I think I'll reverence that if it doesn't offend you too much.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
And further
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
AO - do you not believe in a physical Incarnation?
How is that made up theology when it's just standard Trinitarian Christian theology? And surely all theology is man-made to an extent?
Very droll! I mean applying it to the sign of peace.
[ 26. January 2014, 17:11: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
That's just more made up theology.
It must be so wonderful to be privy to an entirely uncreated theology, as yours must be. I wish I didn't have to sully my hands interacting with other people in order to work out my salvation with fear and trembling! I wish mine had just dropped pure and undefiled from heaven.
But no, my silly God invited us to encounter His magnificent divinity by taking on messy human flesh, and allowed that body to be pierced by our sin, offers it to my unholy lips and declared through His holy word that the ragtag band of followers I fall in with each week can truly be named His body. So, I think I'll reverence that if it doesn't offend you too much.
Now that's just silly. If I want to socialise I'll do so apart from the liturgy.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2: I suppose some folk would see this sort of thing as unholy and disrespectful, although I'd see it more as bringing all of our concerns and interests to God's presence and asking him to bless them.
That’s very charitable of you, svit, but the peace is meant to be part of corporate sacramental worship of God revealed in Christ. Getting a cup of coffee for a chat is fine afterwards but distracting at this point.
It is clearly disrespectful to Abigail
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2: But the obvious alternative to all of this activity is to find a secluded corner during this time and simply pray. There's so little time during church services for personal prayer, and I'd appreciate much more. But that's just me!
I can’t imagine there are any quiet corners with all that frenetic socialising going on.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
AO - do you not believe in a physical Incarnation?
How is that made up theology when it's just standard Trinitarian Christian theology? And surely all theology is man-made to an extent?
Very droll! I mean applying it to the sign of peace.
This is what, to be perfectly honest, baffles me. You see, I'm convinced that theology is made to be used; that we should take the data of what ritual praxes we instinctively like and dislike and subject those intuitions to theological reflection in order to discover whether our preferences need to be purified or wherever they're in tune with our professed faith. The church's small-t traditions require the same kind of scrutiny. If you're actually being honest in this thread, it seems that you don't think that. You actually seem to think that theology of incarnation has nothing to say at all ritual practice. You don't like it, you don't find it sufficiently grounded in historical development, therefore it's wrong and any attempt to say otherwise is "made up" or "naff."
Being honest: I think I'd prefer the peace be skipped than that it take up 8 minutes of socializing mid-service, but I don't know if that's my justus or my peccator speaking. It's an optional part of the Roman Rite, so it can hardly be used as an orthodoxy check. But, your bizarre entrenched opposition to it maybe can.
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
AO - do you not believe in a physical Incarnation?
How is that made up theology when it's just standard Trinitarian Christian theology? And surely all theology is man-made to an extent?
Very droll! I mean applying it to the sign of peace.
This is what, to be perfectly honest, baffles me. You see, I'm convinced that theology is made to be used; that we should take the data of what ritual praxes we instinctively like and dislike and subject those intuitions to theological reflection in order to discover whether our preferences need to be purified or wherever they're in tune with our professed faith. The church's small-t traditions require the same kind of scrutiny. If you're actually being honest in this thread, it seems that you don't think that. You actually seem to think that theology of incarnation has nothing to say at all ritual practice. You don't like it, you don't find it sufficiently grounded in historical development, therefore it's wrong and any attempt to say otherwise is "made up" or "naff."
Being honest: I think I'd prefer the peace be skipped than that it take up 8 minutes of socializing mid-service, but I don't know if that's my justus or my peccator speaking. It's an optional part of the Roman Rite, so it can hardly be used as an orthodoxy check. But, your bizarre entrenched opposition to it maybe can.
Well, if I was still Roman Catholic and if I had my way I'd abolish the whole of the new liturgy. I am not saying that the theology of the Incarnation can't be applied to the prayer of the Church. I just don't like it being used to justify what is essentially a made up liturgy.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
I think here is the crux of the problem.
AO - you realise that ALL liturgy is made-up, correct? It is invented and written by people, it doesn't fall from the sky perfectly formed. If you don't want to use liturgy because it's made up (and fyi the Sign of the Peace is not socialising and you know it), then don't use words or read books or listen to music, because all of those things are made-up too.
(also - very belated to Hart!)
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If I want to socialise I'll do so apart from the liturgy.
Quite. Put it in at the beginning so that you can greet people at the start as you embark on the liturgy, or at the end when it's all over, but having it suddenly interrupt the service in the middle makes less sense.
I mean, who would launch straight into a meeting, then break off halfway to introduce everybody before resuming?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
I have read this thread this morning.
I'm surprised no one mentioned the sharing of the Eucharist. To me, the Eucharist is what constitutes community, not the exchange of the sign of the Peace.
Exchanging the sign of the Peace does not necessarily mean I like the other person. And I don't think the peace MAGICALLY fixes broken relationships. There are times when I shook hands with someone and my feelings towards him or her have no dramatically changed. But I think the Peace expresses a hope that even if we are not completely reconciled here, we will be reconciled, somehow, somewhere, not by our own efforts, but by Christ.
[ 26. January 2014, 18:48: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
I trust that as an Orthodox, AO, you prostrate yourself before the holy icons and kiss them.
We in the Anglican, Roman Catholic, Reformed and Methodist communions cannot unselfconsciously (and regrettably to my mind) do so. So we have an opportunity for similar physicality during the Kiss of Peace (which your clergy will exchange in any case behind the iconostasis.)
Indeed, socialising is not part of liturgical ritual and takes its part after the liturgy, which abigail's clergy woefully fail to recognise.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I mean, who would launch straight into a meeting, then break off halfway to introduce everybody before resuming?
You wouldn't, of course. But that isn't what the Peace is about. It's about recognising one another as the Body of Christ. St Paul excoriates those who approach the Eucharist without 'discerning the Body of Christ'; that's not just about the real presence in the sacrament (important as that is to many of us), but recognising the assembly as the locus of Christ in our midst.
I always think we should bow to one another as well as to the altar at the beginning of Mass. Maybe if we did that we wouldn't need to share the Sign of Peace, but not to do either seems to be reducing the Eucharist to a quasi-magical rite.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The peace is meant to be part of corporate sacramental worship of God revealed in Christ. Getting a cup of coffee for a chat is fine afterwards but distracting at this point.
It is clearly disrespectful to Abigail
...
I can’t imagine there are any quiet corners with all that frenetic socialising going on.
I'm not as sacramental as you are, I suspect, so eight minutes of socialising as part of the ritual wouldn't offend me for that reason. I'd basically get bored. Also, I'm wondering what has to get cut from the service to allow the SOP to go on for that long. I'd prefer an extra hymn myself. (I'm presuming that this isn't the kind of church where time is of little consequence.)
I'm not sure if Abigail's unease is more theological or psychological, but it would be interesting to know how the ministers at her church justify this eight minutes from a theological point of view. Or are they basically just frightened of upsetting the congregation by encouraging a rethink on what has become a 'custom'?
As for quiet corners for praying - if all else fails, there's always the loo!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
But the trouble is it's more than socialising. It's sharing God's peace. It is saying "you and I together are working in the service of the already but not yet Reign of peace, love and justice in which we shall share eternally."
More than "nice coffee"
As it should be, Zappa, but as I've noted in other posts, that's not how it seems to work. Its dysfunction in some settings (Lietuvos has pinpointed them) is IMHO sufficiently grave that it borders on the abusive. Unless clergy focus on this and give some leadership, the reluctance of some of us to embrace the Peace is far from a distaste of the incarnational, and I object to some shipmates having described it as such.
Gee whillikers (I decided not to say hell's bells) if the Spanish and French and Argentines can do it, what is our problem? I can't figure it out.
As an aside, I've addressed in my MW how the Peace goes in various places, and I think that this might be interesting in reports generally.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
I'm in a church where the peace isn't shared. I'd argue that there's a good reason for this: if you have to share he peace, then there's a problem. It should be a voluntary act that has significant implications. In most places that share the peace, it's a free for all irrespective of the theology and of the highness or lowness. I'd argue that you should offer a sign of peace to all who you meet on entering the church to worship together which is along the lines of what we look to do.
When I do go to one where it is included in the service, it comes across in 100% of cases as rather twee and forced. Repetition over 20 years plus doesn't seem to have changed this in my observation.
Then, as others have said, there is the potentially abusive nature of it all. Not only those inappropriately approached (could we be said to be encouraging actions that we might see as amounting to disclosure in other circumstances) but those who are inappropriately ignored. In most churches I've been in for any length of time, most people greet a very small subset of people anyway.
I'd also argue that if you are going to "share the peace" you should do so in every service not just those with communion. We need peace at every turn not just when it's on the calendar to do so.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I'm in a church where the peace isn't shared. I'd argue that there's a good reason for this: if you have to share he peace, then there's a problem. It should be a voluntary act that has significant implications. In most places that share the peace, it's a free for all irrespective of the theology and of the highness or lowness. I'd argue that you should offer a sign of peace to all who you meet on entering the church to worship together which is along the lines of what we look to do.
When I do go to one where it is included in the service, it comes across in 100% of cases as rather twee and forced. Repetition over 20 years plus doesn't seem to have changed this in my observation.
Then, as others have said, there is the potentially abusive nature of it all. Not only those inappropriately approached (could we be said to be encouraging actions that we might see as amounting to disclosure in other circumstances) but those who are inappropriately ignored. In most churches I've been in for any length of time, most people greet a very small subset of people anyway.
I'd also argue that if you are going to "share the peace" you should do so in every service not just those with communion. We need peace at every turn not just when it's on the calendar to do so.
Well, at my church and quite a lot of others, every service does have the Eucharist - but I do see your point. However for me the Peace is a particular kind of symbol/indicator (not sure of the right term - symbol seems a little inadequate) that is inherently tied to the Eucharist and us sharing our lives with each other before we can share in Christ's gift of His life in the Eucharist (clearly this makes more sense with a sacramental view of the Eucharist). To me it is very much in keeping with NT exhortations to receive the Eucharist in the right mindset and without any grudge against one another.
However as you say, there are definitely pitfalls and abuses that it can fall into, and it should be clear at non-Eucharistic services too that we share our lives with each other. I don't know how many RC masses you've been to but they tend to keep the Peace more restrained.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I'm in a church where the peace isn't shared. I'd argue that there's a good reason for this: if you have to share he peace, then there's a problem. It should be a voluntary act that has significant implications. In most places that share the peace, it's a free for all irrespective of the theology and of the highness or lowness. I'd argue that you should offer a sign of peace to all who you meet on entering the church to worship together which is along the lines of what we look to do.
When I do go to one where it is included in the service, it comes across in 100% of cases as rather twee and forced. Repetition over 20 years plus doesn't seem to have changed this in my observation.
Though not universal, I would say that those parishes I have visited that don't exchange the peace have been among the stiffest and unfriendliest I have ever visited. So I don't agree that the absence of the peace necesaarily promotes any more degree of friendship and unity. And people greeting each other before the service can shatter the period of preparation as much as an elongated peace does.
I visited St George Campden Hill near Notting Hill this weekend. The church was packed but the peace was exchanged in the RC way - to the person to the right, the front, and to the left, and over in less than 20 seconds. And a warm welcome at the end of the service. Perfect.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
I visited St George Campden Hill near Notting Hill this weekend. The church was packed but the peace was exchanged in the RC way - to the person to the right, the front, and to the left, and over in less than 20 seconds. And a warm welcome at the end of the service. Perfect.
Horses for courses. I too am always relieved when the Peace is shared in a genuine way with those close by but not by rushing around trying to grab hold of everybody. It's far too easy in most congregations for this [a] to turn into a social gathering, as has been noted, and [b] for some people to be overlooked - and they might not necessarily be those who don't want to join in.
However, the church I regularly attend has a small congregation (rarely more than 30) and despite the restriction of pews with doors, everybody, and I mean everybody, gets out of their seat and walks up and down the aisles until they have greeted everyone else. There is no hanging around to gossip, but a handshake or a hug, and a smile. Then we get on with the Eucharist. It works, though I imagine that most Ecclesiantophiles would shrink in horror at the thought. As would I, if I hadn't experienced it. It wouldn't work with a larger congregation but it is fine in the context.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
We do much the same as Angloid has described, with a congregation ranging from 25-40+, albeit in the RC position just before Communion. Our organist knows to strike up with the Agnus Dei after 30 seconds or so!
Works for us, and I for one (along with Father's better half) make sure that any strangers/newcomers/visitors are included.
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I'd also argue that if you are going to "share the peace" you should do so in every service not just those with communion. We need peace at every turn not just when it's on the calendar to do so.
Except that's probably to misunderstand what the Pax is: it's far more likely to be a signaculum or sealing, of what has gone before (i.e. the Paternoster immediately before, and, more broadly, the Consecration itself).
Fr. Hunwicke is quite good on this point in this post about the position of the peace, and has an interesting aside about the sharing of it.
--------------------
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
everybody, and I mean everybody, gets out of their seat and walks up and down the aisles until they have greeted everyone else. There is no hanging around to gossip, but a handshake or a hug, and a smile. Then we get on with the Eucharist. It works, though I imagine that most Ecclesiantophiles would shrink in horror at the thought.
That sounds fine to me.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
Angloid, that happens at the smaller midweek services here - where the attendance is 12-24 - you just shake hands with everyone. That actually does feel comfortable and inclusive.
I've been to a few big services where the congregation doesn't move, you just shake hands either side, in front and behind - and that's great too.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
