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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW/2644: Bethesda Chapel, Pembrokeshire, Wales
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Link to report.
The reporter says that no mention was made of Sunday -- that it was referred to as the Lord's Day by everyone throughout.
I note, though, that the service was called Sunday Worship and that it is called that on their website.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I was interested to read this, as it is utterly different from what I'm used. I don't suppose I'd have altogether appreciated it.
But one negative factor I would have deeply applauded. Whatever the positive content of the sermon, it didn't start with an mandatory weak joke. Praise the Lord.
And what were they doing having a sermon in English? I'd have thought that to appreciate Welsh Chapel culture, we need to send a Welsh speaker to a Welsh language service. (Even Anglicans in Wales include at least some Welsh in every service I've ever attended.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
... And what were they doing having a sermon in English? I'd have thought that to appreciate Welsh Chapel culture, we need to send a Welsh speaker to a Welsh language service. (Even Anglicans in Wales include at least some Welsh in every service I've ever attended.)
Saundersfoot is in a part of south Pembrokeshire which has been virtually exclusively English speaking since the middle Middle Ages. There's apparently a line somewhere between Haverford West and St Davids where the language changes, which has only moved about five miles in the last 700 years.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
So long as Sunday is referred to as Lord's Day and not as Sabbath, which is where ambiguity would arise. Strictly speaking, Sabbath refers to Saturday and not Sunday.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I've just re-read Trollope's Barchester Towers, where the Bishop Proudie's Low Church and power crazed wife and his chaplain won't refer to "Sunday". I must check but, I think they prefer "Sabbath Day".
I found the comment in the report a bit surprising, as I can't see any necessity to use the work "Sunday" in the course of Sunday worship.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Notices, I suppose. References to 'what we do on [insert preferred way of describing the day]', perhaps.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
So long as Sunday is referred to as Lord's Day and not as Sabbath, which is where ambiguity would arise. Strictly speaking, Sabbath refers to Saturday and not Sunday.
Theoretically that may be the case, but traditionally many Christians, particularly those who were more strict about the observance of the Lord's Day have referred to Sunday as the Sabbath. If one wants to make it clear one is talking about Saturday in that role, it is wiser these days to refer to it as Shabbat.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
And what were they doing having a sermon in English? I'd have thought that to appreciate Welsh Chapel culture, we need to send a Welsh speaker to a Welsh language service. (Even Anglicans in Wales include at least some Welsh in every service I've ever attended.)
Not only would the location effect this, but within those church (not including the Anglicans) who work in both English and Welsh in Wales there are often separate administrative groupings - as there is in the Presbyterians - by language used.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
So long as Sunday is referred to as Lord's Day and not as Sabbath, which is where ambiguity would arise. Strictly speaking, Sabbath refers to Saturday and not Sunday.
Theoretically that may be the case, but traditionally many Christians, particularly those who were more strict about the observance of the Lord's Day have referred to Sunday as the Sabbath. If one wants to make it clear one is talking about Saturday in that role, it is wiser these days to refer to it as Shabbat.
To give a linguistic flavour, Sabato in Italian and Sabado in Spanish are the words for Saturday in those languages and so named after Sabbath. Domenica (It.) and Domingo (Sp.) are the names for Sunday, having resonances of the Latin, Dominus - Lord, and so Lord's day.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Clotilde
Shipmate
# 17600
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Posted
The report mentions it as 'Calvinistic Methodist' is that a welsh denomination within methodism or a separate organisation? I have heard the term used before.
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A witness of female resistance
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clotilde:
The report mentions it as 'Calvinistic Methodist' is that a welsh denomination within methodism or a separate organisation? I have heard the term used before.
The spiritual descendants of George Whitfield and Howell Harris. They started in the Church of England (which included Wales) in the 18th century. Fell out with the Wesleys over Arminianism. Formed a number of small denominations in the 18th century, the best known of which is the Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion. Most remained in the CofE till the early 19th century. Many left (or were kicked out of) Anglicanism in 1811 IIRC. Some remained, and are arguably the ancestors of todays conservative evangelical Anglicans. Some congregations became independent or formed small connexions. In Wales most of them formed (or joined) the Welsh Presbyterian Church (name changed from Methodist to avoid confusion withthe Wesleyans)
[ 06. January 2014, 13:15: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Given the number of derelict, disused (or converted to houses) chapels - and CinW churches - one comes across in Wales, it's really good to hear of one that is alive and well!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Locally we have St Mary's Wesleyan Reform Church.
Good Lord! There's a MW report just begging to be written!
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I used to pass it frequently - always thought it an intriguing dedication, not least as I am unaware of any Methodist Church of Great Britain church with that name!
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
If a Methodist Church (Wesleyan Reform or otherwise) has a dedication such as St. Mary's, it is usually shared with the Anglicans - a situation not uncommon now.
In England, if a URC church has a dedication, it is a former Presbyterian church. A former Congregational church, is simply named after the town or place in which it is situated.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I am sorry, but the Anglican is right across the road, and it is not an LEP. I did not say it had a dedication I said it was called "St Mary's". The Anglican by the way is this church.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
But St. Mary's IS the dedication of that Church. One can always enquire locally why that Church is called St. Mary's, which I admit is unusual for a Methodist church on its own. Within ten miles of where I am, I can think of least half-a-dozen joint churches, all of which have dedications.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Would St Ives Congregational Church be dedicated to St Ives or be because it was in the town of that name?
St Mary's here is an area of Sheffield named after the Anglican Parish Churches dedication.
Jengie
[ 07. January 2014, 18:14: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Ah. But of course people not from Sheffield wouldn't necessarily know that, would they? Similarly, there's a St Peter's Methodist Church in Canterbury which I assume takes its name from the locality (St Peter's Street, IIRC more or less opposite the CofE church of that dedication).
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yes, but I had already really given it away in the post above by connecting to the Anglican Church which was also St Mary's (check the link).
Two dedications to the same saint right next door to each other is very unusual, and when one is from a tradition that does not normally use saints then suspicion might well rest on that as being different.
I like the curiosity value of it.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
We may be confusing two separate issues here. The purpose of having a church dedication is both to distinguish it from other places of worship in the town or place and also to make the saint (or other title) the patron of that particular chuch, whose annual festival may (but not always) be particularly celebrated as a major festival for that particular church.
Just because a congregational church happens to be situated in St.Ive's (as in the above example), one does not refrain from calling it that; it just means that the name of the Saint has been adopted as a place name (a different reason) and not specifically as the patron saint of the church.
In my own locality, there is Trinity Church ('Holy' left out.); this was originally just a Methodist church, but the former local Congregational Church closed, decades ago, and this is now a united church for both congregations. A few miles away, there is Christ Church Methodist Church, origianlly just Methodist, but the nearby Anglican Church (some decades ago) had a subsidence problem and closed. They subsequently moved into the Methodist building and the Church became joint. It is still called 'Christ Church', but the former Anglican dedication of St. Phillip's has disappeared.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
As a Methodist minister who was formerly Superintendent of the Pembrokeshire Circuit, I can attest that English is the only language in which worship takes place in Methodist chapels in Pembrokeshire. None of our ministers or Local Preachers is fluent in Welsh, although some have a smattering of yr iaith yr nefoedd and as there are some fluent speakers in our congregations it has been used occasionally in services - a couple of years ago I jointly led a bilingual communion service on Christmas Eve with the help of one of my fluent Welsh speakers.
However, most native South Pembrokians (my father among them) never spoke a word of Welsh, and until fairly recently it was a badge of honour not to. Indeed, if someone moved from Haverfordwest to Fishguard, for example, it was not unheard of to hear one of the older people describing such a move as having "Gone up the Welsh"!
As regards Methodist Churches with saints names, it isn't as unusual as some of you Anglicans seem to think, it's just that we don't actually "dedicate" our churches to saints, we just name them after saints.
In what was the Medway Towns Circuit, in Kent, when I lived there, we had Methodist Churches (unalloyed by Anglicanism, by the way) called St Paul's (Gillingham), and St Peter's (Gillingham), and St Luke's (Rochester) and St Andrew's (Gillingham). We also had two LEP's which were, and maybe still are for all I know now, called St William's (Wladerslade) and St David's (Lordswood).
[ 08. January 2014, 12:58: Message edited by: Ondergard ]
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
By the way, having now read the MW report on Bethesda, I would bet my house that I know who the friendly gentleman and his wife were who greeted the MW and chatted for half an hour afterwards... because, about half a mile down the road towards Wooden is a Methodist Chapel we had to close last year, where he used to worship!
When Moreton chapel closed, he went to Bethesda so that he could worship with his wife for the first time for sixty years (it was an interdenominational marriage!).
Posts: 276 | From: Essex | Registered: Apr 2005
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Just to clarify: when you say "Methodist" in a Welsh context, do you mean Wesleyan, Arminian Methodist, or Calvinistic Methodist/Presbyterian?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
As regards Methodist Churches with saints names, it isn't as unusual as some of you Anglicans seem to think, it's just that we don't actually "dedicate" our churches to saints, we just name them after saints.
In what was the Medway Towns Circuit, in Kent, when I lived there, we had Methodist Churches (unalloyed by Anglicanism, by the way) called St Paul's (Gillingham), and St Peter's (Gillingham), and St Luke's (Rochester) and St Andrew's (Gillingham). We also had two LEP's which were, and maybe still are for all I know now, called St William's (Wladerslade) and St David's (Lordswood).
Dedication I think, is an unambiguous way of referring to the title of a church, be it a patron saint, or other (e.g. Christ Church - Holy Trinity) whether or not the church was actually dedicated or merely named. If I were to ask, "What is that church called?", I would not necessarily get the answer I was looking for.
See my post above for my examples of a few Methodist churches with "dedications" - inverted commas deliberate in view of the foregoing comment.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Just to clarify: when you say "Methodist" in a Welsh context, do you mean Wesleyan, Arminian Methodist, or Calvinistic Methodist/Presbyterian?
In a Welsh context, you might have to add the word "historical", because, historically, in Wales there were two Methodist Churches, the Wesleyan Methodist Church and the (after the Welsh Revival) much stronger Calvinistic Methodist Church.
However, the Calvinistic Methodists - who never had anything to do with the Wesleyans, who amalgamated with the United Methodist Church and the Primitive Methodist Church to form the Methodist Church of Great Britain (now being morphed into the Methodist Church in Britain... I know, don't ask [sigh]) in 1932 - changed their name to the more correct Presbyterian Church of Wales, otherwise known as the PCW.
Now, as then before name changes and amalgamations, ne'er the twain meet. In any village with a Methodist and a PCW chapel in it, one would be the chapel you went to and the other would be the one you wouldn't be seen dead in.
There has never been, to my knowledge, any denomination known as the Arminian Methodists, unless it was one which flourished briefly after a church refused to buy an organ and got ejected by Jabez Bunting or something (there was once a Methodist breakaway denomination back in the 1830's, I think, called the Protestant Methodists).
Posts: 276 | From: Essex | Registered: Apr 2005
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
My grandad was from Wales in Cardiff, and always called himself a "Wesleyan" and never spoke about Methodists. And the man who founded it was Wesley and that is very useful to found.
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Flickr fotos
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, that fits. AIUI some of the older generation- still some around- will talk about 'Methodists' and then turn out to mean Calvinistic Methodists (PCW).
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
... (there was once a Methodist breakaway denomination back in the 1830's, I think, called the Protestant Methodists).
Were there 'Papist Methodists' then? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
My reference to Arminian wasn't referring to a denomination, but to the theological position of John Wesley himself.
I believe some at the time would say that the Wesleyans definitely had a pope and he died in 1791.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Just to clarify: when you say "Methodist" in a Welsh context, do you mean Wesleyan, Arminian Methodist, or Calvinistic Methodist/Presbyterian?
In a Welsh context, you might have to add the word "historical", because, historically, in Wales there were two Methodist Churches, the Wesleyan Methodist Church and the (after the Welsh Revival) much stronger Calvinistic Methodist Church.
However, the Calvinistic Methodists - who never had anything to do with the Wesleyans, who amalgamated with the United Methodist Church and the Primitive Methodist Church to form the Methodist Church of Great Britain (now being morphed into the Methodist Church in Britain... I know, don't ask [sigh]) in 1932 - changed their name to the more correct Presbyterian Church of Wales, otherwise known as the PCW.
Now, as then before name changes and amalgamations, ne'er the twain meet. In any village with a Methodist and a PCW chapel in it, one would be the chapel you went to and the other would be the one you wouldn't be seen dead in.
On this, the PCW is know as the Presbyterian Church of Wales or the Calvinistic Methodists, they kept the name.
And also for many years the English work may not have met, but the Welsh work shared a single hymn book. And of course as know in Welsh chapel culture the hymn book is all important ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ 09. January 2014, 19:20: Message edited by: gog ]
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gog:
And also for many years the English work may not have met, but the Welsh work shared a single hymn book. And of course as know in Welsh chapel culture the hymn book is all important
Sorry, gog, but I don't understand this. What is the English work? Or indeed the Welsh work?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Sorry, gog, but I don't understand this. What is the English work? Or indeed the Welsh work?
My apologies, the word language should have apeared in there, so it would be
English language work and Welsh language work
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Does "the English work may not have met" mean they haven't worshipped together or mean they haven't met the Welsh language work?
I haven't come accross this use of the word "work". Does it broadly mean denomination here?
How could they share a hymn book if they were using different languages? Was the book a translation into English from Welsh?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Does "the English work may not have met" mean they haven't worshipped together or mean they haven't met the Welsh language work?
I haven't come accross this use of the word "work". Does it broadly mean denomination here?
How could they share a hymn book if they were using different languages? Was the book a translation into English from Welsh?
"The work" is a term used for the action of the church, the whole work of the church. It is then often divided some Welsh nonconformists into an English language work and Welsh language work.
The original post of mine was meant to reflect that while the English language sections of the Presbyterian (Calvinistic Methodists) and the Wesleyan Methodists may not have had much contact. Within the Welsh language sections of both denominations there has been a long history of working together and as an example of this the shared hymn books (a couple of editions) was presented.
All this was in response to
quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
However, the Calvinistic Methodists - who never had anything to do with the Wesleyans
As to the English and Welsh language sections of the denominations talking and relating to the other (internally), that seems to have happened less - and would be a whole different thread I think (but not one that's needed).
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