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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sunday School
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
That is not the fault of churchgoers - why are they blamed? Why not blame the churches for crap Sunday School provision? If the CoE wants to attract families it has to do far better than some colouring in and jigsaws in the corner.
We are "the churches". The Church of England isn't some abstract corporate body - it's you, it's the man in the next pew, and if I ever move back to the UK, it will be me again.
"Churchgoers" are not customers of the church - they are the church. ...
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
I don't think we can ever legitimately say 'somebody ought to have a vision for .... '
Nor, for that matter, 'I have a vision for what you ought to do'.
Perhaps you should actually read my comment where I explained that my fucking disabilities mean I am NOT ABLE to do this. Getting to church is hard enough for myself. Being the sole Sunday School leader every single week of the year (because there is nobody else) would put me in hospital. Is that a good enough reason for you?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
Also, I am seeing an attitude of children being expected to keep themselves occupied with colouring in etc until they can join in with 'real' church, or that they are supposed to put up and shut up with a church that doesn't want them other than to fill up pews and doesn't see them as important, and then apparently are supposed to want to be part of such a church as an adult. Imagine if any other group of people in the church was treated like this! Although saying that, on some DH issues some people still are...
What about, I don't know, church that values children as full members of the Body of Christ and as such all church is 'real church', not just church for adults - and that this church welcomes, spiritually nourishes and provides a real and meaningful role for children in the community of the church. But that would be a bit too close to the Gospel, I fear. It also boggles the mind that someone who is childfree by choice has to point this out.
[ 27. January 2014, 23:45: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Or maybe everyone, like you, has their individual reasons for not being able to pull it off alone. What you are describing is an ideal most of us fail to live up to.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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MrsBeaky
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# 17663
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Posted
This is such a complex and often painful area of discussion, especially if you are the parent of a child who chooses to opt out and you are then judged for your lack of spiritual nurture!
I agree that the promises made at Baptism (or at non-conformist dedications) mean that there is a corporate aspect to all of this. But sometimes there just aren't the human resources to deliver anything meaningful.
There are also issues of style and personality. As said above in the thread, even when there is provision for children, not all children enjoy it.
One thing I've noticed is that in churches where there is considerable emphasis on the preaching and the sermons last for half an hour plus there is a very practical reason for keeping the children meaningfully employed.
Having grown up and now being back in a liturgical tradition I can see that the rhythm and flow of such a service could be used creatively. I know one Anglo- Catholic priest who invites the children to come and sit in front of the altar at the start of the Eucharistic prayer so that they feel part of it.
There could be quite a number of things we could do in this vein, simple versions of the lectionary for them to read. There is a priest called Father Simon Rundell who has done a lot of work on this.
I know of children who have requested that their parents take them to church because they have been affected by a visit to a school assembly from a member of the clergy/ pastor and want to know more.
I also know lots of children who have stopped attending church as soon as they could. My own four have had various seasons.
But, as parents we decided that faith and spirituality could be experienced at home as well as at church. We read the Bible, prayed, sang songs and talked about matters of faith and hot topics when they were growing up. They are all now in their 30s. They are all different with varying theological perspectives and church attendance (or lack thereof!). We were far from perfect as parents but despite the pain of our mistakes the fruit of those early days is there, recognised by all of them in themselves.
So in answer to the original question: do we want to carry out Christian education or do we want to enable our children to experience the wonder of God and the joy of spiritual discovery? Or both? When we know what we are aiming for, then perhaps we can take small manageable steps towards it.
And we will never get it completely right!
[ 28. January 2014, 06:36: Message edited by: MrsBeaky ]
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Or maybe everyone, like you, has their individual reasons for not being able to pull it off alone. What you are describing is an ideal most of us fail to live up to.
But it's not - it's the attitude problem at the heart of it that needs changing. Many many people just don't see a problem because children are not 'real' members of the Body to them.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
What do people think of Messy Church and holiday camps? I've always seen those as evangelism to children. I don't have of my own so not sure how they are received by parents.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Limited experience of Messy Church, but our daughter loved it and our son was indifferent (OK for a change, but he's unlikely to be happier with that regularly than what we currently do). Holiday camps would be an option for older children, but I think ours (preschool and early primary) are possibly too young. But, I'd like to know the camp first ... having recently had incidents in town with a church running youth activities and school chaplaincy distribute Creationist and homophobic propoganda in school assemblies I wouldn't want to find a camp run by people with similar beliefs.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
What do people think of Messy Church and holiday camps? I've always seen those as evangelism to children.
Of course, Sunday School is 'evangelism to children' too - even more so, since it occurs all year round.
The world of Christian holiday 'camps' is alien to me, but in my area some of the churches run holiday clubs for local children. These clubs and camps are almost inevitably going to be run by evangelical churches, since they're the ones who hire or train youth workers or 'youth pastors'. This concept doesn't seem to be so prevalent in other kinds of churches.
'Youth work' will increase in importance, but I don't think SS as we know it has much of a future in most of our mainstream churches. Maybe we need to consider investing in ecumenical children's work. Also, if churches want to reach unchurched children they'll have to offer more than Bible stories on Sunday mornings, because most parents aren't impressed by that. Holiday camps/clubs for the children of busy parents, or access to 'good' state-run church schools - that's the sort of things that parents want.
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Gwai
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# 11076
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Posted
I know our (very liberal) church runs a summer camp for kids. It's always way oversubscribed, even if we don't advertise it. This is partially because we are in a very poor area though, and constructive things for children to do while their parents are working are VERY popular. It doesn't hurt that the program is very good, but honestly, I bet we'd fill it if the program were bad. (Though we might need to advertise a bit perhaps.)
It's definitely a form of evangelism, but I think for us it's at least as much about being there for the neighborhood. Teaching about constructive ways to have emotions, giving inner city children a chance to work in a garden and grow their own vegetables, making sure kids get at least one square meal... It's all important.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
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Heavenly Anarchist
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# 13313
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Posted
Our parish church, now under a new vicar, runs regular holiday clubs, fortnightly after school clubs (at the primary school), a very small and new youth group and the vicar regularly leads assembly at the school. This has meant that the church had been able to integrate far more in the local community than it did previously and the vicar is a recognisable person to many more people. There is an appointed youth worker shared between a couple of churches, and they alternate where the holiday clubs are held.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Heavenly Anarchist
That sounds very good. I suppose being in the right area with the right combination of churches helps too.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I know our (very liberal) church runs a summer camp for kids. [...]
It's definitely a form of evangelism, but I think for us it's at least as much about being there for the neighborhood. Teaching about constructive ways to have emotions, giving inner city children a chance to work in a garden and grow their own vegetables, making sure kids get at least one square meal... It's all important.
I should apologise to you, because I was thinking particularly of the UK situation, which is probably a bit different from the American one.
Your comments are a reminder that the SS actually started as a working class phenomenon and served many young people well. But in the UK declining resources and members particularly in working class areas has affected the ability of churches in many places to offer effective assistance to children. Fortunately, some mainstream churches (like Heavenly Anarchist's) are developing strategies that work for them.
BTW, I've been googling Sunday School in the UK, and although much of the focus is historical I've found two links for anyone who's interested in the contemporary situation:
http://www.krishk.com/2012/02/takes-church/
http://www.eauk.org/church/campaigns/whole-church/
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Jade Constable, I can see from your further explanations that you and I are talking at cross purposes. You are saying that just providing colouring in activities for children is not good enough. And I am saying that my own church, and - I suspect - other similar larger churches, are providing several different activities for children already. I can see now that your beef is not with me, but with those who do not see the need to bother to do that. I did think, originally, that you were just having a petulant whinge. But I now see that is not the case. Pax.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Hmm. What a difficult problem SS (or whatever you like to call it) is in these post-Christian times!
On reflection, I think we're doing as much as we can at our place, given our limited human resources. We have a safe carpeted area for the youngest ones, a willing helper who is happy to organise a children's group as required during Mass, and the opportunity for older children to assist as acolytes/servers (we have just the one 13-year old at the moment). A confirmation class for 3 or 4 older children is to start soon, we hope.
Outwith the church, we have good rapport with our Beavers/Cubs/Scouts, though they can only manage 4 or 5 Parade Services per year - again, their resources in terms of leaders are limited. A new pre-school Nursery is about to start in our Hall, catering for the poorest families in our parish (the most deprived in the town in terms of child poverty), so who knows what pastoral contacts may come from that?
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Heavenly Anarchist
That sounds very good. I suppose being in the right area with the right combination of churches helps too.
The Sunday school in the village church is small but growing I believe, many families left during the problems discussed earlier, including ourselves. When the new vicar came I think a lot of investment was made into rebuilding the church community and some resources are shared with another parish. This demonstrates how a troubled parish can be turned around but it does take time and resources, as well as the right personalities. We would be tempted to return to the church if we were not so happy at our NFI one.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
We have a good variety of ages of children at our parish in North London - about 30 kids come each week, from age 2 to 16.
We try to provide some variety for all the childen and teens both at Sunday Schools and in integration in the services. So there is a play and comfort area at the back of the church where very young children can happily play. There is also a separate Sunday school with 2 groups - younger and older - and on occasion the older children lead the younger children in presenting their work after the distribution of communion.
A number of the older children just come to the main service, and several act as servers. Also once a month the children will lead certain aspects of the services by handing out the books, joining in the procession, singing with the choir, leading the scripture readings and prayers, and bringing up the communion elements. Also once every few weeks they will sing a communion hymn that they have practiced. It is great to see how the children develop a bond and affection as their confidence grows. WE don't have a church school so most look forward to seeing each other on Sundays.
This is all done within the context of a fairly high mid-morning parish communion. Last year, the Vicar experimentally began an additional less formal family service but so few came that it was soon knocked on the head. But I think local context, even in a city like London with so many churches, is really important. A nearby parish whose parish communion is probably slightly longer and definately more formal than ours (they have a Sunday School for this service) has introduced a bi-monthly Eucharist, about 40 mins with simple songs and the children sitting together at the front. This started with 10 but now attracts around 50 adults and children
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Aye. There's no one answer. It's about what you can do that's authentically you. If there are enough people who really "get" the informal approach, then it can be done well, and attracts punters. If you're a dyed in the wool liturgist and despite best intentions are doing informality through gritted teeth, then it's going to be obvious, and the undercurrent of "hopefully we'll get this congregation to 'real church' one day", even if the leadership doesn't admit that even to themselves, will nevertheless make things seem forced.
Our church is a bunch of weirdos and misfits, so it's not surprising that we do weird misfitting church. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Liturgylover
It's very good to hear that yours and other local churches are able to share the gospel in this way. That's encouraging news.
It should be said that London's religious life overall is very different from what's happening in the rest of the country, even though there are surely lessons that churches elsewhere can learn from London.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Liturgylover
It's very good to hear that yours and other local churches are able to share the gospel in this way. That's encouraging news.
It should be said that London's religious life overall is very different from what's happening in the rest of the country, even though there are surely lessons that churches elsewhere can learn from London.
Thanks Svitlana, it is always rather baffling to hear some contnually talk of empty churches. I think the overall point in our case was to try to remove the divide between Sunday School and church and for both church and school try and include a mixture of choice, some continuity, and some diversity week by week.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
If it doesn't detract too much from Amos's brief, I'd like to introduce a different approach from one of our benefice churches, a small church in a deeply rural community. They have decided to do something completely different once a month and have a service centred much more around families and children (although obviously others are welcome too) - these services involve worship but intermingled with a particular outdoor activity and some food. For example, they have done stargazing from the churchyard with an astronomer, searching as the Wise Men would have done; also activities in the graveyard, looking for information about those who used to worship in the church long ago; making model boats to sail on the river linking with stories of the fishermen chosen to be disciples.
Another church in the area has a monthly indoor service based around everyone having breakfast together.
For families who find it difficult to attend conventional worship, these once a month alternative services might be more manageable.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
It is always rather baffling to hear some continually talk of empty churches.
As I say, London's experience of church growth is exceptional; English Christians from outside London or certain fortunate suburban areas elsewhere will generally have far more experiences of church decline than church growth. I certainly do. This is probably hard for many churchgoing Londoners to visualise.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
I have been in churches absolutely heaving with children, popular Sunday School and after-school/holiday clubs. Said churches are evangelical, usually con-evo though - so not sure how to get similar results in non-evangelical places. Maybe evangelical places will always have more energy, although that's a depressing thought.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
What lessons do you think those 'heaving' churches might teach the majority of smaller congregations that have few if any children?
BTW, I've found this link with results from a survey about why churches grow. Interestingly, it dens't suggest that lots of youth activities are the answer, and nor does it say that being evangelical is essential. Perhaps evangelical churches are more likely to have the qualities required, though.
http://www.lausanneworldpulse.com/research.php/271/03-2006?pg=all
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
What lessons do you think those 'heaving' churches might teach the majority of smaller congregations that have few if any children?
BTW, I've found this link with results from a survey about why churches grow. Interestingly, it dens't suggest that lots of youth activities are the answer, and nor does it say that being evangelical is essential. Perhaps evangelical churches are more likely to have the qualities required, though.
http://www.lausanneworldpulse.com/research.php/271/03-2006?pg=all
I can only speak from my own experience, and in that experience the churches with most families are evangelical.
As for lessons other churches can learn, well I'm not sure and parents would be better-qualified to answer I'm sure - but certainly the whole church being involved in providing for and being interested in children and their theological growth helps a great deal. I can see why this would be more likely in an evangelical church since evangelism even to the congregation is seen as important. The question for me is how to transfer the skills of engaging children and families, without evangelical/conservative theology.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
In a way, we do it in our little backstreet A-C congo by just accepting (and welcoming) people where they are, as opposed to where we wish they might be!
For the rest, over to the Holy Spirit, coz She knows best......something perhaps we ought all to bear in mind......
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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