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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » High/low perspective (MW:2653 St Barnabas, Dulwich) (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: High/low perspective (MW:2653 St Barnabas, Dulwich)
venbede
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quote:

But I think you put your finger on the one question I keep coming back to: what';s the difference between an Anglo-catholic and a liberal in snazzy vestments? [/QB]

I have the greatest respect for Adeodatus. However this is completely clericalist. If he'd said "what's the diffence between an Anglo Catholic
priest and a liberal in snazzy vestments..."

that would have been fine. But he didn't. I'm an anglo-catholic, I accept women as catholic priests if they've been episcopally ordained, I'm gay, I accept any episcopally ordained priest as validating the sacraments, I use the rosary, I attned Benediction and pray before the reserved sacrament, I'm not ordained and there is no reason for me to wear vestments...

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
there is no reason for me to wear vestments...

... except when singing in choir or serving at mass.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Thurible
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They are robes not vestments.

Thurible

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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

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Mr Beamish
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

But I think you put your finger on the one question I keep coming back to: what';s the difference between an Anglo-catholic and a liberal in snazzy vestments?

As alluded to elsewhere, these things are neither mutually exclusive, nor necessarily different, depending upon how we are using the word 'liberal'.

Moreover, as Gildas alludes,

quote:
Isn't it one of those irregular verbs? I am Anglo-Catholic. He is High Church. She is a liberal in snazzy vestments.
and therefore the difference is in the eye of the beholder, depending upon his views of "soundness" or exclusivity or whatever.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
They are robes not vestments.

I refer to the surplice. Surely you don't sing or serve in anything but? [Ultra confused]

The Catholic Encyclopedia says of the surplice: "The surplice belongs to the liturgical vestment in the strict sense, and is the vestment most used. It is the choir dress. . . ."

That's good enough authority for me.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Spike

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
They are robes not vestments.

I refer to the surplice. Surely you don't sing or serve in anything but? [Ultra confused]

OK, choirs wearing surplices I can accept, but servers in surplices make the Baby Jesus cry.

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Gamaliel
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A belated reply to SvitlanaV2 ... yes, I'm sure you're right.

The problem, though, is that the evangelical, charismatic and Pentecostal churches rarely alert people to alternatives ... so if you're a new-comer or a try-er-outer and you find it's not your bag, then they rarely provide alternative directions for people to explore ...

So, people often 'drop-out' very quickly ... and these kind of churches aren't generally very good - in my experience - in dealing with that or finding the reasons why ...

They are, though, as you say, good at getting people over the threshold and having 'first dibs' ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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SvitlanaV2
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Do many churches routinely suggest alternatives? They might do if asked, but telling visitors they might be happier at the church down the road is sometimes shorthand for 'Please don't come back here!'

This kind of sharing probably happens best in areas where ecumenical relationships are good. But if only one or two churches are doing all the serious evangelism, they might be unimpressed by any expectation that they should channel newcomers towards the churches that do rather less.

Sadly, I think most churches are rather poor at finding out why people leave.

[ 05. February 2014, 19:47: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Pancho
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I would suggest that the terms 'low church' and 'high church' don't really apply outside of an Anglican context - although there is possibly a distinction to be made within Roman Catholicism along similar lines to a certain extent.

I know that there's been a tendency on the Ship to apply these terms to Catholic churches but I've always been very much against it because, as you say, they come out of an Anglican context and so carry some Anglican/Episcopalian assumptions and baggage.

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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
servers in surplices make the Baby Jesus cry.

But he cries more profusely over servers in anything under their, erm, robes than black slacks, black socks and black leather shoes. (OK, servers who are members of a monastic community or are of the female sex can go slackless and sockless but they must wear the sandals of their community or black flats, respectively.)

--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Gamaliel
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It depends, of course, on what we mean by 'serious evangelism', SvitlanaV2 - but that might be material for another thread.

I can see what you're getting at, though. Mind you, some of the outfits that are more 'serious' about evangelism tend to be unable - in my experience - to envisage anyone possibly wanting an alternative to what they have to offer ...

Which might be one of the factors that makes them so serious about evangelism in the first place ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
They are robes not vestments.

I refer to the surplice. Surely you don't sing or serve in anything but? [Ultra confused]

OK, choirs wearing surplices I can accept, but servers in surplices make the Baby Jesus cry.
Where I come from both choirs and servers make the baby and the adult Jesus cry
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Thurible
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With joy.

Thurible

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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Must have been taken somewhere else (perhaps on a choir tour?) as it's definitely not St Barnabas

That being the case, I substituted a different photo from their parish profile.
If I have got the right church, I think it is where I went to a licensing of a new priest-in-charge on 6 February 2006, but the (male) priest concerned has since retired and no longer in post. But I am not sure if I am mixing up the church with another church in a neighbouring district in that part of London.

I notice that the report says that the choir went on a tour of Germany last summer, which is almost certainly where the baroque-appearance photo came from. That style of architecture is far removed from the church I went to on that date. OK the different photo has now been substituted, which seems familiar from my visit.

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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!

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Vade Mecum
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
servers in surplices make the Baby Jesus cry.

But he cries more profusely over servers in anything under their, erm, robes than black slacks, black socks and black leather shoes. (OK, servers who are members of a monastic community or are of the female sex can go slackless and sockless but they must wear the sandals of their community or black flats, respectively.)
I can do better than that: trousers underneath cassocks make the Baby Jesus cry, there is no such thing as a female server, and nothing other than skimpy cottas please the Lord our God. Every notch of the candle has its fine gradations and its orthodoxies...

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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
They are robes not vestments.

I refer to the surplice. Surely you don't sing or serve in anything but? [Ultra confused]

OK, choirs wearing surplices I can accept, but servers in surplices make the Baby Jesus cry.
So he won't like Clifton RC Cathedral then!

Their servers wear surplices, perhaps in competition with All Saints, C of E over the road where they wear cottas and use more incense.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
With joy.

Thurible

Nope with horror and disdain
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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
They are robes not vestments.

I refer to the surplice. Surely you don't sing or serve in anything but? [Ultra confused]

OK, choirs wearing surplices I can accept, but servers in surplices make the Baby Jesus cry.
Fortunately, the Howls of the Divine Infant are overcome by the volume of Hallelujahs from the side chapel of Blessed Percy.
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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
With joy.

Thurible

Nope with horror and disdain
[Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

You not liking something doesn't make it wrong. Why the intolerance? Choirs in particular have brought many people to God, but I suppose they can't really be Christians to you.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Choirs in particular have brought many people to God.

And they've chased many people out of church.

--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
With joy.

Thurible

Nope with horror and disdain
[Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

You not liking something doesn't make it wrong. Why the intolerance? Choirs in particular have brought many people to God, but I suppose they can't really be Christians to you.

I never said they weren't Christians Jade however much you suppose I did. They may be as individuals or they may not be: profession of belief for choir members in some pretty well know churches is not essential - which I have to admit I do find puzzling.

Choirs don't appeal to me for the simple reason that when they are present, there's a temptation (all too often succumbed to), to turn church into a performance. When choirs are present, the settings of the hymns if often tinkered with such that the key is always set considerably higher than normal to accommodate said choir. It doesn't allow for a great deal of participation which, to me, is essential for worship.

I may be intolerant but I'd rather see it, more positively, of being well aware of what I like and respond to personally. I accept YMMV but you certainly wont like some things I do.

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ExclamationMark
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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Choirs in particular have brought many people to God,

I'll ask my usual question of you when you make such sweeping claims, Jade. Where's your evidence?

It's not the first time that you've made what amounts to an ex cathedra type of statement to try and bolster your argument, now it's time to put your facts on the line. Other people might have issued a hell call well before now on that basis .......

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Choirs in particular have brought many people to God,

I'll ask my usual question of you when you make such sweeping claims, Jade. Where's your evidence?

It's not the first time that you've made what amounts to an ex cathedra type of statement to try and bolster your argument, now it's time to put your facts on the line. Other people might have issued a hell call well before now on that basis .......

But surely it's quite well-known? Many people I know, particularly those who have come to faith later in life, found the beauty of choral singing to be a sign of God's creation/goodness etc. Maybe less common in your churchmanship, but it's far from uncommon in higher church circles.

I'm not sure how I could be expected to provide hard evidence for such an objective thing anyway? I think that's quite unreasonable, and I don't get this thing about 'ex cathedra' statements? I'm not a bishop, clearly, and haven't come across the phrase before outside that context I'm afraid. Yes, I might generalise but that's a normal part of speech and I don't see how that's worthy of a Hell call at all. Do you require hard evidence for every single thing someone says? If I'd added that this is true in my experience (which should surely be obvious), would that be OK or still not good enough for you? Am I not allowed to talk about what is true in terms of my experience? [Help]

As for choirs turning into a performance, I can see that in churches with large choirs that can be an issue, but most churches (in the CoE at least) don't have choirs big or talented enough for that. It's rather less common than worship bands turning worship into a performance, in my experience. However, all forms of music can bring people to God and I wouldn't say that worship bands or choirs or any other kind of music in church is wrong, or no music at all for that matter.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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mdijon
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Any music worth presenting in church runs the danger of becoming a performance, from praise bands through to chanting.

If we followed that logic to its conclusion church music would be accompanied by bland chords in crotchets sounded out on a piano.

I wasn't converted by hearing a choir, but it certainly kept me in the church at a point where I was struggling to maintain enthusiasm.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Choirs in particular have brought many people to God,

I'll ask my usual question of you when you make such sweeping claims, Jade. Where's your evidence?

It's not the first time that you've made what amounts to an ex cathedra type of statement to try and bolster your argument, now it's time to put your facts on the line. Other people might have issued a hell call well before now on that basis .......

But surely it's quite well-known? Many people I know, particularly those who have come to faith later in life, found the beauty of choral singing to be a sign of God's creation/goodness etc. Maybe less common in your churchmanship, but it's far from uncommon in higher church circles.

I'm not sure how I could be expected to provide hard evidence for such an objective thing anyway? I think that's quite unreasonable, and I don't get this thing about 'ex cathedra' statements? I'm not a bishop, clearly, and haven't come across the phrase before outside that context I'm afraid. Yes, I might generalise but that's a normal part of speech and I don't see how that's worthy of a Hell call at all. Do you require hard evidence for every single thing someone says? If I'd added that this is true in my experience (which should surely be obvious), would that be OK or still not good enough for you? Am I not allowed to talk about what is true in terms of my experience? [Help]

As for choirs turning into a performance, I can see that in churches with large choirs that can be an issue, but most churches (in the CoE at least) don't have choirs big or talented enough for that. It's rather less common than worship bands turning worship into a performance, in my experience. However, all forms of music can bring people to God and I wouldn't say that worship bands or choirs or any other kind of music in church is wrong, or no music at all for that matter.

Thanks - happy to accept that it's in your experience. It's not in mine even when I was in the Cofe. As you rightly state the same issues of performance etc. occur with worship groups. I wouldn't deny that. It's a matter of fact too, that lots of people are, in my experience, not interested in debates about who wears what and the more that we as churches perpetuate this, the bigger the laughing stock we get. I'd argue it's time to ditch the lot and go back to basics but then again, what basics and it's just me .....

Ex cathedra? Well neither you nor I are bishops ( but I used it in a general way of describing a statement that comes across with the authority that says it is the final word on such matter. This is my view/opinion/observation so that's it type of thing.

It just didn't stack up with me or my experience. Apologies for the brusque wording: late night, long meeting, bad head.

Personally though I'd rather see people come back to church in any way possible. Even if my flippant thoughts about surplices are overridden. I am concerned though that the historic truth of older people returning to church or coming to church is becoming less evident: older people have rejected church for In their eyes) very good reasons - will they come back to something they've consciously rejected? For those who haven't done so, my concern is that they aren't exposed enough to authentic faith in whatever expression to make the step to attend.

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dj_ordinaire
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I can offer myself as an example - I always 'believed' but I only became a church-going, confessing Christian as a result of choral Evensong. Dunno if that's the same as a choir 'bringing people to God' but seems pertinent I guess.

So yeah. I'm evidence [Cool]

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Flinging wide the gates...

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L'organist
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Of all the newcomers who've stayed with the church where I play over the past 12 years, 80% have come through, or because of, the choir.

For a small rural parish we have a large electoral role, but once the youngest child has got the place at the local CofE secondary school many are never seen again.

And the choir don't just sing: they are run stalls at the fete, make up three-quarters of the regulars on churchyard working party days, do catering, drive the community bus, clear gutters, etc, etc, etc.

And all of that on top of putting up with the decision of some of the PCC not to allow the heating to be put on earlier so that church is above freezing for rehearsals.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Gamaliel
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Hmmmm ...

I don't think it's choirs or the lack of them that is the issue, really ... it seems to me that choirs in this part of the world - semi-rural Cheshire - are quite participative ...

That said, there are those who have fled the town churches with their more 'contemporary' worship styles to seek out the rural idylls where sung Evensong and so on still takes place.

I can see both Jade Constable's side of the argument and ExclamationMark's ... I've worshipped in both Anglican and Baptist settings too so I can see the ups and downsides and the strengths and weaknesses in each case.

I do think, though, that there is an inherently judgmental attitude among some of our more Baptist-ish friends ... that if something is 'scripted' or more 'high' in tone then somehow it loses authenticity.

I'm not counting ExclamationMark in that number necessarily ... but I have come across some Baptists who believed that Anglicans were 'insincere' because they were using 'set prayers' rather than praying in their own words ...

As if extemporary prayer in and of itself were some kind of indication of sincerity ...

As ever, there are rights and wrongs on both sides.

Speaking for myself, though ... my wife sings with a very traditional church choir in a medieval church a few miles up the road. She practises with them on Friday nights in return for singing at a few weddings and on high days and holidays.

Whenever I accompany her to one of the services where she's singing and they sing an anthem or whatever, I don't feel as if I'm not participating or any less involved than I do when it's one of the congregational hymns or songs where we all join in with the choir.

What's the problem?

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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Yes, that's all well and good, but which of us hasn't sat through services where the choir made a bunch of alley cats sound like the Cambridge Singers?

Such choirs invariably feature at least one prima donna soprano who may have been able to sing at one time, but is now decidedly past her Use By date, and all she can do is make the neighborhood dogs howl. But no one can tell her anything, least of all the choir director, lest she depart in a huff and take the majority of the congregation with her.

And speaking of the choir director -- he or she may have studied piano for two or three years as a child, and now thinks that qualifies him or her as an organist.

--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Point is, he's still likely to be the best organist in the congregation. What then?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

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Music and choirs of all kinds and all traditions tend to be one of those toxic focii for all manner of shenanigans in churches.

There's no way around that, except for dispensing with music and song altogether - whether accompanied or acapella - and sitting quietly like Quakers.

There's no way round it.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I do think, though, that there is an inherently judgmental attitude among some of our more Baptist-ish friends ... that if something is 'scripted' or more 'high' in tone then somehow it loses authenticity.

I'm not counting ExclamationMark in that number necessarily ... but I have come across some Baptists who believed that Anglicans were 'insincere' because they were using 'set prayers' rather than praying in their own words ...

As if extemporary prayer in and of itself were some kind of indication of sincerity ...

I'm wounded by the barbs of a friend Gamaliel - fancy equating me to a Baptist! Not even those who know me in BUGB would ever say that: I'm here because it enable same to find Christ and to serve others in His name ... being Baptist isn't on the register.

I may have decided views but well .... a hatred of liturgy isn't actually among them and tbh I've not experienced that kind of sour comment in Baptist churches for may a long year. Scripted paryers - great bring them on: I use them. Extempore prayer - yep that too - but it's no better than just in addition to.

Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
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# 812

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[/qb][/QUOTE]I'm wounded by the barbs of a friend Gamaliel - fancy equating me to a Baptist! Not even those who know me in BUGB would ever say that: I'm here because it enable same to find Christ and to serve others in His name ... being Baptist isn't on the register.

I may have decided views but well .... a hatred of liturgy isn't actually among them and tbh I've not experienced that kind of sour comment in Baptist churches for may a long year. Scripted paryers - great bring them on: I use them. Extempore prayer - yep that too - but it's no better than just in addition to. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Well, if you've been barbed by my comments then I apologise, but suspect your wounds are self-inflicted ...

You obviously didn't notice the caveat where I said that I wasn't laying any charges at your door, necessarily, when it came to the kind of attitudes I was caricaturing.

Baptist is as Baptist does and you can distance yourself from the label as much as you like ... it doesn't stop there from being one ... it's very evident in the way you post that you're a Baptist. Like it or not. Embrace it.

[Biased]

I'm all for Baptists being true to their Baptist identity as I am for RCs being true to theirs, Quakers to theirs, Anglicans to theirs and whatever else ...

We are large, we contain multitudes. We can be in the BUGB and be bigger than the BUGB. We can be both in the CofE and bigger than the CofE ...

I know that it's both/and not either/or when it comes to extemporary prayer and liturgy ... and on the whole I think most Baptists in the UK these days achieve a balance in this respect.

That said, I could point you to a Baptist church I know where people left because the minister invited an RC priest to lead some Lenten meditations ... and this was just a few years ago, not back in the dim and distant ...

Please don't get me wrong. I am more of a friend to the Baptists that might appear at first sight. They are my favourite non-conformist group ... not that I dislike any of the others - the Methodists, URC etc ... far from it.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged



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