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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Readers' Robing for Funerals
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
Perhaps then my query should be why hoods are officially part of Choir Dress? Just to keep the pot boiling, I could add that when assisting or preaching at the Eucharist, I wear a cassock-alb with Reader's scarf. I wait for the shocked intakes of breath.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
A tortured logic permits the alb & scarf approach, but I think it is problematic. My understanding about hoods is that they be vestigial remnants of the daily dress of clerics with degrees-- cassocks with a practical (remember mediaeval indoor heating, such as can still be found in the British Isles) hood to keep the bat droppings/rain off the cleric, and then a surplice over their indoor garb. The surplice is, of course, a fuller and ungathered version of the alb which can fit over a cassock and (also necessary in those uncentrally heated times) a coat or fur garment.
So the wearing of an alb at the offices has a logic; however, the reader's scarf over it is liable to misinterpretation as a stole. Far better that you wear a tunicle over the alb, as you are in essence filling the subdeacon's role at a Eucharist and in that way prevent any confusion. Should local practices (or the absence of the vestment) preclude a tunicle, then a simple alb while assisting.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Perhaps then my query should be why hoods are officially part of Choir Dress? Just to keep the pot boiling, I could add that when assisting or preaching at the Eucharist, I wear a cassock-alb with Reader's scarf. I wait for the shocked intakes of breath.
So do I. I move between 3 churches and a casssock alb is easier to keep decent whereas my 'full English' surplice creases easily and I am not good at ironing.
Plus a surplice looks odd in a sanctuary where everyone else is in albes.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Just to keep the pot boiling, I could add that when assisting or preaching at the Eucharist, I wear a cassock-alb with Reader's scarf. I wait for the shocked intakes of breath.
Interesting: is it for the reasons leo gives? Because I can't see why you would come up with this otherwise: if you're in the sanctuary, are you being a straw-subdeacon? Then alb and tunicle (or just alb). If not, then you are in choir, and should wear choir dress. If not fulfilling the ministry of a reader at all (i.e. serving) then why an identifier at all? Is it local peculiarity, indifference to vesture, or something else entirely which leads to the mix-and-match?
Hypothetical: since Common Worship puts the Pax in the Ambrosian place, does that mean those who use it can follow the Ambrosian custom of vesting lectors in copes for Mass?
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Before I sign off for Lent, just to point out that a cassock-alb was designed as a combination of cassock, alb and surplice. I know the very idea causes the vapours among many denizens of Ecclesiantics, but aesthetics apart, there is no reason to object to the cassock alb being used as a substitute for a surplice in any context. That's not to say that they wouldn't look odd worn with a hood.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
Cassock-alb and scarf for Eucharistic services; cassock, surplice and scarf for all other services.
Wearing cassock and surplice at the Eucharist, when everyone else is wearing a cassock-alb or an alb, really makes the Reader stand out - not at all desirable.
Left to my own devices I'd wear the cassock-alb at all services (it's practical and comfortable) - but rules is rules!!
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Aesthetically, I like to see a long full English surplice with gathered pleats. It seems smarter than an alb, and most certainly a cassock alb. If made long enough, and with a smaller neck, it can be put on straight over street clothes like the clergy did in the 18thC.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
In answer to vade mecum: Our vicar at the time I was licensed liked all those robing for the Eucharist to match. I would not have thought a Reader's blue scarf could be mistaken for a stole. If in the sanctuary for the Eucharist, I would be preaching, reading one of the lessons (not, currently, the Gospel), preaching, or leading the intercessions,or some or all of these, but not deaconing, since I am not a deacon.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
In answer to vade mecum: Our vicar at the time I was licensed liked all those robing for the Eucharist to match. I would not have thought a Reader's blue scarf could be mistaken for a stole. *snip*
Over the years, having heard the reader's blue scarf being mistaken for a stole by: a) the reader, b) the rector, c) a choirmaster, and d) servers, I think it safe to say that it will inevitably be mistaken as a stole by lots of people.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
But does God mind?
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Aesthetically, I like to see a long full English surplice with gathered pleats. It seems smarter than an alb, and most certainly a cassock alb.
So do I and i wear one for evensongs (and rare mattins). But unless the mass is celebrated in surplice rather than proper vestments, a cassock alb is more appropriate.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
But does God mind?
I am sure he doesn't. I don't think he is very interested. He looks on the heart rather than the appearance (1 Sam 17:7). I also don't think he minds if you read the gospel, as you are permitted to do in England but not Wales.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
In answer to vade mecum: Our vicar at the time I was licensed liked all those robing for the Eucharist to match. I would not have thought a Reader's blue scarf could be mistaken for a stole. *snip*
Over the years, having heard the reader's blue scarf being mistaken for a stole by: a) the reader, b) the rector, c) a choirmaster, and d) servers, I think it safe to say that it will inevitably be mistaken as a stole by lots of people.
A scarf gets mistaken for a stole whether it is worn over a surplice or an cassock-alb.
A sacristan once offered me a green stole because, he said, 'you always wear that blue one'.
This morning, at an anglo-catholic care-home chapel, a man asked me which diocese i was bishop of!!!
Those who know the difference between certain robes and vestments will know that I am lay.
Those who don't - probably the vast majority, wee, it would make no difference which robes we wear and one could make a case for Readers coming out from the congregation in ordinary clothes to preach.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
In answer to vade mecum: Our vicar at the time I was licensed liked all those robing for the Eucharist to match. I would not have thought a Reader's blue scarf could be mistaken for a stole. If in the sanctuary for the Eucharist, I would be preaching, reading one of the lessons (not, currently, the Gospel), preaching, or leading the intercessions,or some or all of these, but not deaconing, since I am not a deacon.
But if one were preaching, reading and intercessing, why would one be in the sanctuary? Surely one would be in choir, and thus in choir dress?
Wanting everyone to match is absurd.
And Angloid: do you have any proof that the cassock-alb is meant as a replacement for a surplice, beyond the fact that the alb and surplice are the same garment if one goes back far enough?
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Those who know the difference between certain robes and vestments will know that I am lay.
Those who don't - probably the vast majority, wee, it would make no difference which robes we wear and one could make a case for Readers coming out from the congregation in ordinary clothes to preach.
Quite. When I've been officiating at a funeral, people often shake my hand and say "thank you Father" as they leave.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
In answer to vade mecum: Our vicar at the time I was licensed liked all those robing for the Eucharist to match. I would not have thought a Reader's blue scarf could be mistaken for a stole. If in the sanctuary for the Eucharist, I would be preaching, reading one of the lessons (not, currently, the Gospel), preaching, or leading the intercessions,or some or all of these, but not deaconing, since I am not a deacon.
But if one were preaching, reading and intercessing, why would one be in the sanctuary? Surely one would be in choir, and thus in choir dress?
Wanting everyone to match is absurd.
And Angloid: do you have any proof that the cassock-alb is meant as a replacement for a surplice, beyond the fact that the alb and surplice are the same garment if one goes back far enough?
We ripped out our choir stalls decades ago.
Plus I act as deacon so am at the altar. In our other church I'd be in a tunicle or dalmatic but our main church doesn't have them.
[ 10. March 2014, 07:25: Message edited by: leo ]
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
In answer to Vade Mecum, it is true that at Parish Eucharist I would normally be in the Deacon's stall in the Choir, as we use the Nave Altar for that celebration, but for the Early Service, at which we have a sermon, we celebrate at the High Altar and sit in the hideously uncomfortable sedilia, which are in the sanctuary. All very irregular, I'm sure.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mr Beamish
Apprentice
# 17991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A scarf gets mistaken for a stole whether it is worn over a surplice or an cassock-alb.
In my parish of curacy there was an entire vestment set (maniple included) in blue. Made because a previous vicar supported a[n AFL] football team who sported that colour.
I wore it for Marian feasts.
Shurely shome mishtake? Blue is a recommended option in Advent, after all.
Posts: 31 | Registered: Jan 2014
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A scarf gets mistaken for a stole whether it is worn over a surplice or an cassock-alb.
In my parish of curacy there was an entire vestment set (maniple included) in blue. Made because a previous vicar supported a[n AFL] football team who sported that colour.
I wore it for Marian feasts.
Navy? Or the blue-and-white of North?
I've seen clergy replace their stole with a team scarf for at least some of the service the day after the grand final.
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Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
I've seen clergy replace their stole with a team scarf for at least some of the service the day after the grand final. [/QB]
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Because the Holy Sacrifice is definitely the place to show off your personal team-based sports affiliation...
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Hoods don't have to be 'of the degree', but do look aesthetically good as a part of choir dress.
I knew of one priest who wore a hood (both in the more usual shape and also the cowl Warham Guild shape) with choir dress. He wore his theological college hood as it was the only one that reminded him of his priestly training (he was also a PhD).
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
... I've seen clergy replace their stole with a team scarf for at least some of the service the day after the grand final.
Doesn't that unchurch those who support a different team? It's not that different from proclaiming from the pulpit that all true Christians must vote Labour, Conservative or whatever.
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