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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sharing a Wedding
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
I have a (Church of England) wedding in a week's time. The couple advised me some time ago that a priest who retired from this area, and was subsequently appointed to a post elsewhere was coming and might want some involvement. I said I'd be happy to hear from him.
He has telephoned me this afternoon (only a week from the wedding) apparently under the assumption that he is going to play a major role in the service.
The bride tells me she is happy for him to do whatever I like, "it's your church" she says.
I confess my nose is a little out of joint at his breezy assumption about the role he is going to have. I don't want that to cast any sort of shadow on the occasion, but am struggling to manage my expectation that I would be conducting the vows and giving the address with his expectation that he will have a major role.
I'd be grateful for some Ecclesiantic advice.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
While it may be discourteous for him to have left it until now to get in touch, perhaps you should have been more pro-active and got in touch with him?
At this stage, suggest you have a quick conversation about division of labour.
As PP you, of course, must deal with the signing of registers, so it would make sense for you to do the prayers.
How about asking him to do the sermon/address and the marriage blessing?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
While it may be discourteous for him to have left it until now to get in touch, perhaps you should have been more pro-active and got in touch with him?
At this stage, suggest you have a quick conversation about division of labour.
As PP you, of course, must deal with the signing of registers, so it would make sense for you to do the prayers.
How about asking him to do the sermon/address and the marriage blessing?
Actually it isn't that clear cut. He could easily be the officiating minister for the wedding and sign the registers as such. In fact legally, with my goodwill, there would be nothing to stop him from doing the whole thing.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
In the absence of a request from the couple for him to do anything in particular and given you are the person in pastoral charge, at this stage I would give him a bit part (reading maybe, intercessions?) and do the rest yourself.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I was happy to do the intercessions only (dressed in wedding gear rather than ecclesiastical) for my brother-in-law's wedding. I think it's different if you are something like the father of the bride, but in that case your role should have been made clear months previously. I'm with others who think the parish priest is boss and should make the decisions.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
I had two priests at my long-ago wedding. The local one did the vows, etc. (and signed the register -- since he was the one who was in-state); the other (who was from out-of-state) celebrated the Eucharist. And the Best Man preached.
The out-of-state priest made it quite clear that he could assist only if he were invited by the local priest -- he did not announce that he was coming and participating.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
I blame the couple -- not that that solves your problem. I suspect that they (or the bride) said to the visitor something like "and we'd love it if you could participate in the wedding" without any particular understanding of what the visiting priest might or should do, and without any thought of actually talking to the PP. Visiting priest probably reacted to clumsy words and enthusiasm with the assumption that s/he'd be a major player, and that it had been cleared with the PP. And then the happy couple didn't effectively communicate with the PP, perhaps not realizing what they should be doing about this.
At a minimum you have to split up hearing the vows and pronouncing the marriage, a blessing of the couple, a sermon, prayers...what else? I'll confess that unless the couple were near and dear to me, I'd be quite happy to let someone else preach.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Thank you for your thoughts everyone. I appreciate it. Having achieved a better approximation to what might be called "a calm and heavenly frame" I have gone for the following (CofE Marriage Service here): - Welcome and Preface - me
- Lawful impediment and declarations of intent - visitor*
- Collect and Address - me (reading by a wedding guest)
- Vows, exchange of rings, blessing of the couple, Registration* - visitor
- Prayers and Blessing - me
Then I've done some tweaking of choreography to make everything work
(*There are no legal restrictions on whether he or I do these bits, we are equally competent in the same jurisdiction, but it seems to be good practice that all these elements are done by one person. In theory the declarations of intent and the exchange of rings could be done by someone other than the "officiating minister" but it gets (IMHO) ridiculously fiddly to keep changing person at these points.)
[ 24. February 2014, 20:56: Message edited by: BroJames ]
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Landlubber
Shipmate
# 11055
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Posted
If you are met with as much good will by the visitor, the couple will have a good start to their married life. (That is really not meant to sound condescending - apologies, I cannot find a better way to say it.)
Also, your post reminds me that I was present recently at a wedding with a three-way share (admittedly planned well ahead) where non Church-goers noticed and remarked positively on the way the three had worked well together. If that can show that the Church is a good place to turn for important celebrations, maybe people will remember in times of need as well.
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They that go down to the sea in ships … reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man
Posts: 383 | From: On dry land | Registered: Feb 2006
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
My heart sighs every time a couple says to me "we've got a friend who is a minister (or organist!). Could they be involved?"
It would be churlish to say no, but experience tells me that such weddings will take a lot more of my attention and time than normal.
My personal opinion would be:
a) Visiting priest. Can do the address (assuming that they know the couple better than I) and the prayers. Apart from that, it's my church, so I get to do the vows etc.
b) Visiting organist. No - they can't play the organ unless they have met previously with the church organist and satisfied them that they are competent to play. Many aren't and the end result can easily be costly damage to the organ.
In either case, the situation needs to be clarified early on - nothing is confirmed until the priest (or organist) has made contact and we've discussed it all.
Even then, the chances are that things will get complicated. But that's (clergy) life for you.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Badger Lady
Shipmate
# 13453
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Posted
My wedding was conducted by a priest who was a friend but in my local church. Both he and I approached the incumbent with courtesy and caution. I didn't assume it would be allowed.
I had expected the incumbent to play some role in the service. However he indicated that a Saturday off in summer was a rare and welcome event and he would seize the opportunity. (the church was a popular one for weddings)
I've been to a wedding involving a three way share across three denominations. Bizarrely all the clergy had the same forename! Very well managed and a lovely service. From memory:
(1) Priest one - did the vows and rings
(2) Priest two - compare and sermon
(3) Priest three - prayers.
Posts: 340 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The only time I've ever noticed it to be a problem is when the priest invited to take part in the service is a previous incumbent. Sometimes, the new incumbent can see that as a threat.
Otherwise, we've had all sorts. Both from the clergy and also from musicians. It all helps to make the weddings interesting and, believe me, when you get to sing at hundreds, they can be quite samey and boring otherwise.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Landlubber
Shipmate
# 11055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Landlubber:
... your post reminds me that I was present recently at a wedding with a three-way share ...
I had meant to say, here, that the home priest was responsible for the (UK Anglican) declarations, vows and registration. Visitor A gave the Sermon and Visitor B did the welcome and introduced the hymns, readings etc. Prayers were shared.
The key was asking in advance.
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They that go down to the sea in ships … reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man
Posts: 383 | From: On dry land | Registered: Feb 2006
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Almost forty years ago wife and I had this same experience. She had a minister who was a family friend. I had a friend who was a minister.
We asked both of them to participate. Wife's family friend preached. My friend did the liturgy. Both stood together when wife and I exchanged our vows. Both said "N and W are now husband and wife, let no one put asunder."
Since wife's family friend was a resident of the state where we got married, he signed the license. My friend was a witness.
We actually got married in New Jersey. My friend lived in New York City. He came out on the bus for the rehearsal. We asked him to stay overnight with some friends but he refused and went back into the city.
That night the transit workers went on strike. We did not know if he could even get out of the city the next day.
We tried to make contingency plans about who could go into the city and get him, but nothing seemed to be plausible. So we thought we would just have to do the service without him.
Fortunately, the strike was very brief. They settled just after midnight. My friend made to to the service.
Reminded me of the old song "Get Me to the Church on Time" from My Fair Lady. However, it was not the groom who was going to miss the service, but the assistant minister!
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
b) Visiting organist. No - they can't play the organ unless they have met previously with the church organist and satisfied them that they are competent to play. Many aren't and the end result can easily be costly damage to the organ.
Which reminds me of the TEC cathedral where I once worked. We occasionally loaned the building to the local Ortho congregation for weddings larger than their small church would accomodate. For one of these there was a bride's(?) young cousin 'who was studying organ.' Dangerous words, right there! When our organist asked her to come in and play for him (the word 'audition' wasn't used), she played the only song she knew -- 'More.' Organist offered the opinion that it wasn't sacred music, and should not be used. Result--tears. The Ortho priest said that as it would be before the liturgy, he didn't care. So Cousin Bebe played 'More.' It wasn't very good. Organist remarked 'Bebe played 'More'--she should have played less.'
No damage to organ, just to sensibilities.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Visiting Organist at a wedding: After some unfortunate experiences (before my time) the last PP decreed that any visitor must be at least a member of the RCO - now CertRCO.
I've been quite happy to go along with that.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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MrMusicMan
Shipmate
# 16343
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Posted
Well, I'm not AGO (I doubt I have the technique to pass the scales examinations), but I'm certainly capable of playing the instrument. Typically the only damage I inflict is upon the bats. They typically don't appreciate the volume at which I enjoy playing, especially if the regular organist declines to use the reeds...
Posts: 167 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Apr 2011
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
Just to clarify:
Not sure what MMM means above. The AGO (American Guild of Organists) has no examinations for membership. The AGO exams for Colleague, Associate and Fellow have certain playing and paperwork requirements, though none of them, AFAIR, involve 'scales.'
/Plug/ The AGO welcomes to membership anyone involved in playing the organ, choral direction, or other tasks related, whether ecclesiastical or academic. And ALL AGO chapters need more members! /end of Plug/
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
MMM - the whole point of playing an organ is not to make the loudest noise possible, it is to be tuneful and to accompany services in such a way as to encourage participation by congregation, or to sympathetically accompany choir.
GB - I think our CertRCO is roughly equivalent to your Associate of the AGO.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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MrMusicMan
Shipmate
# 16343
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Posted
I've always been under the impression that AGO had playing tests for admission to the membership. Hunh.... learn something new every day!
As far as the volume that I appreciate, I am well aware that the organ, when accompanying singing, should be of tuneful and encouraging registration, I have never heard a complaint about the volume (many of the clergy and congregants that I play for appreciate me "opening the dang thing up). Except from the bats. And so long as they don't circle my head and drop their guano on me, they can complain all they want. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 167 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Apr 2011
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
A horrible warning from my own history. When the bride said that she would like an old family friend to be involved in the wedding, I got in touch with the friend and suggested that he might like to preach, pray and bless the couple. He seemed happy with this.
At the rehearsal, he said, as we got to the sermon slot, he said "what I have to say will be directed entirely at the couple" and I (stupidly) interpreted this as meaning that the content of his talk would be directed at the couple. So, during the service, I was not really prepared when he turned his back on the congregation, faced the couple and proceeded to talk to them and them alone, inaudibly to anyone else, for more than 10 minutes.
By the end of his little chat I was sitting in the congregation trying to entertain a couple of small children, and the families were deep in conversation, walking about, popping out for a fag, taking pictures of each other in the aisles. It took several minutes to get everyone back in the pews, let alone focussed on the service.
Every day a new lesson!!
anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Reminds me horribly of a wedding where the brother of the bride, not a priest, was allowed to climb into the pulpit and, from his experience of 2 years of marriage and age (30) lecture the happy couple of Christian marriage. Toe-curling doesn't begin to describe it.
It all came as a profound shock to the PP who had expected him to do a secular reading.
(And I'm told it prompted a furious family row with the bride refusing to speak to her bro for a good year or so...)
A****ole ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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AndyB
Shipmate
# 10186
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Posted
We had no less than four ministers involved:
1. The minister of the church (Presbyterian) opened and closed the service
2. Jo's sister married us
3. A friend of mine who was formerly Church of Ireland chaplain at Queen's preached
4. The minister of my then church did the intercessions (and also the marriage preparation)
All of this was agreed with the minister of the church. He would not have been offended if he hadn't been involved at all, but we thought it good to include him and let him welcome everyone to the place where he is teaching elder.
My dad played the organ, again with the resident organist's permission, but he is rather better than the resident (and happens to have bits of paper too)
Posts: 149 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2005
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
When we got married, D. was the organist of St. Magnus Cathedral (Church of Scotland), but also a member St. Olaf's, the local Piskie church. IIRC the PP of St. Olaf's did the intercessions and the Cathedral minister did the rest.
The organ playing was shared between a friend (with FRCO) who had emigrated to Norway and came back for the occasion, and D's assistant (who also conducted the choir).
These days, if someone wants to provide their own music, they are charged a "bench fee" (i.e. D. gets the organist's fee anyway) and he has to be satisfied that (a) they can play and (b) they're going to play something suitable.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
These days, if someone wants to provide their own music, they are charged a "bench fee" (i.e. D. gets the organist's fee anyway).
Sounds like "corkage" for bringing your own wine. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I suppose it sort of is, but organists aren't very well-paid: they need all the fees they can get.
I hate the practice used by some couples of getting married on beaches and up trees* - don't they realise they're doing an honest, hard-working organist out of his livelihood?
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
* or in the case of Pagans, at the Ring of Brodgar in Orkney.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Just popping back to report on this thread that everything went swimmingly. It was quite entertaining for me to watch the visitor rehearsing the couple for the vows in almost exactly the same way I usually do. After the service he commented on how similar the kinds of things I was saying in the address to what he usually does.
Everybody seemed very happy with it, and I had got over my initial grump - so all was well! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
I hate the practice used by some couples of getting married on beaches and up trees or in the case of Pagans, at the Ring of Brodgar in Orkney.
I can't speak for Scotland ... but, under English Law, such weddings would have no legal significance - you have to get married in a place which has been duly authorised.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
I hate the practice used by some couples of getting married on beaches and up trees or in the case of Pagans, at the Ring of Brodgar in Orkney.
I can't speak for Scotland ... but, under English Law, such weddings would have no legal significance - you have to get married in a place which has been duly authorised.
I'm pretty sure the law is different in Scotland - after all, Humanist weddings are legal there and they often take place outside. There are fewer restrictions on Scottish weddings.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
I hate the practice used by some couples of getting married on beaches and up trees or in the case of Pagans, at the Ring of Brodgar in Orkney.
I can't speak for Scotland ... but, under English Law, such weddings would have no legal significance - you have to get married in a place which has been duly authorised.
Allegedly there's a change on the way to transfer the authority to an authorised person who can then perform the ceremony pretty much anywhere without the place being registered. It will still need notice and have to be open to all ...?anyone know how so called celebrity weddings with closed guest list can be legal? I have to keep the church door open to allow all and sundry to come in - what's different about theirs?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I've not heard of any such change coming, although I can see that it might come ...
If it is coming, though, why go to all the fuss of recently updating the 1949 Act to embrace "Equal Marriages" and, inter alia, make provision for Authorised Buildings in which they can be held?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
In the olden days in Scotland weddings were often not celebrated in a church,but rather in the manse or a private house.(This custom was taken to the USA)
A minister could marry a couple anywhere.It might be in a hotel or a house or indeed outside.
When civil weddings came in they had to take place in a registry office.
Many not very religious couples would seek out a minister willing to conduct the marriage service in lots of interesting places -( well ,one at a time !) like the top of a mountain or on a beach.
For over 50 years weddings have been common also within a Presbyterian church,as well as the other denominations in Scotland and there has also been a liberalisation of the rules concerning the celebration of non-religious marriages.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I wonder whether that was the case in Wales as well? - certainly funerals are still held in houses, with the coffin in the front (best) room.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
To be honest (not that I plan on marrying anyway) my preference would be a religious wedding outside. Happens all the time in the US and elsewhere and I do think our current wedding restrictions are very outdated - most were to keep people from spoiling financially or dynastically advantageous marriages from happening, which is no longer a priority.
Re sharing weddings, my housemates are getting married in the summer (to each other!). Her father is a priest in the CoE and will be marrying them, our uni chaplain will be giving the homily and the priest of the church we all attend together (which is where the wedding will be held) will be presiding at the nuptial mass (complete with concelebration and full matching vestment set inc dalmatic and tunicle!). Everyone knows their role - I guess in A-C weddings there are more distinct roles anyway.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
We get a lot of this at the church where I work. Since it's an Episcopal cathedral, it requires the permission of the Bishop and of the Dean. That's just general courtesy, anyway.
But I've seen it done so many different ways. On really rare occasions, we've had weddings done by visiting clergy (only if they're Episcopalian) without our own clergy's involvement at all. But we have vergers (like myself) who run the rehearsal and help the clergy. I've only seen visiting clergy be completely respectful and compliant, thank God.
This comes up a fair bit if one of the couple is of a different faith - often, if one of them is Jewish, e.g., their rabbi will participate. It's more clear-cut then, because we add part of the Jewish rites to the liturgy and let the rabbi handle that.
Incidentally (or maybe not), we don't usually let the visiting clergy take the homily. I'm trying to remember if it's happened (other than the time none of our clergy were present), but I can't think of any examples.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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