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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Genuflection in the ABSENCE of the Sacrament
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Choirboi
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# 9222
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Posted
I grew up being told that one does not genuflect before an altar where the Sacrament is not reserved, which seemed quite logical and simple. In preparations for Maundy Thursday, this issue came up in context of whether the sanctuary party should genuflect or merely bow at the beginning of the liturgy, because the Sacrament has been removed. A colleague cited Fortescue, who instructs that when the Sacrament is present, all genuflect, but when the Sacrament is not present, the Celebrant bows, while all others genuflect. I have been researching diligently, and all other sources I've found concur.
The question is WHY? To me it makes no sense for ANYONE to genuflect when the Sacrament is not reserved (Good Friday veneration excepted, of course). Why would the Celebrant (and prelates according to some sources) perform a different action than the Deacon, Subdeacon, and servers?
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Like as the hart desireth the waterbrooks, so longeth my soul after Thee, O God.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboi:
The question is WHY? To me it makes no sense for ANYONE to genuflect when the Sacrament is not reserved (Good Friday veneration excepted, of course). Why would the Celebrant (and prelates according to some sources) perform a different action than the Deacon, Subdeacon, and servers?
We bow to the altar instead of genuflecting to the Blessed Sacrament when the Sacrament is not present (and the sanctuary light will not be burning during that time). This is a point well made in rehearsals for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday: once the Sacrament is reposed on the separate Altar of Repose, we stop genuflecting to the tabernacle on the high altar. We do genuflect when the Blessed Sacrament (in one kind only) is in the sanctuary for Communion during the Good Friday liturgy.
After the altar is stripped on Maundy Thursday, the sanctuary light is out and the tabernacle door left open, which helps remind us as we're on our way down in a genuflexion that we should really just be bowing. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Genuflection is a Fond Thing Vainly Invented, and should be replaced by a reverent bow - whether to cross, altar, or MBS.
Well, that's what my increasingly creaky knees tell me. If I genuflect these days, I have to have something to hold onto, or I am likely to topple over into an unseemly and unedifying humpled creep.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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PaulBC
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# 13712
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Genuflection is a Fond Thing Vainly Invented, and should be replaced by a reverent bow - whether to cross, altar, or MBS.
Well, that's what my increasingly creaky knees tell me. If I genuflect these days, I have to have something to hold onto, or I am likely to topple over into an unseemly and unedifying humpled creep.
Ian J.
Agreed I am not that old but the joints are sending me messages , reminding me that I am not 21 anymore.
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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# 10745
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Posted
In my experience, at least when I was a youngster, genuflecting to an altar where the blessed sacrament was not reserved, was confined to pre-Vatican 2 anglo-papalists. It is many years since I last came across this practice.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
It is worth pointing out that most Roman Catholics genuflect right before sitting in their pew and right after getting up from the pew and leaving the Church, regardless of whether or not the Blessed Sacrament is in the Church or, if so, whether the Sacrament is reserved behind the altar or elsewhere in the Church. You're supposed to catechize them to profoundly bow rather than genuflect if there is no Blessed Sacrament to genuflect to and only an altar, but most RC's aren't in Church enough (or have been doing what they have been doing for too long) for any catechesis of this kind to stick.
Further adding to the confusion is that most RC's make a profound bow before receiving communion while standing - and this is indeed an acceptable option in the rubrics AFAIK (very few genuflect and imagine the chaos in crowded services with lines going in all directions to priests and Eucharistic ministers if everyone genuflected). A profound bow was also what the priest leading my RCIA suggested that I do.
Finally, on another tangent, was it ever required in the rubrics to genuflect to the Pope? To a bishop? Were there rules about doing this outside of Liturgy?
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
It is worth pointing out that most Roman Catholics genuflect right before sitting in their pew and right after getting up from the pew and leaving the Church, regardless of whether or not the Blessed Sacrament is in the Church or, if so, whether the Sacrament is reserved behind the altar or elsewhere in the Church. You're supposed to catechize them to profoundly bow rather than genuflect if there is no Blessed Sacrament to genuflect to and only an altar, but most RC's aren't in Church enough (or have been doing what they have been doing for too long) for any catechesis of this kind to stick.
Further adding to the confusion is that most RC's make a profound bow before receiving communion while standing - and this is indeed an acceptable option in the rubrics AFAIK (very few genuflect and imagine the chaos in crowded services with lines going in all directions to priests and Eucharistic ministers if everyone genuflected). A profound bow was also what the priest leading my RCIA suggested that I do.
Finally, on another tangent, was it ever required in the rubrics to genuflect to the Pope? To a bishop? Were there rules about doing this outside of Liturgy?
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
As far as I know, the custom is that when you encounter a bishop with jurisdiction over you (e.g. the Ordinary of your diocese, or a coadjutor) you genuflect on the left knee and kiss his episcopal ring. Presumably, in the RCC, the Pope would count as such a bishop.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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BulldogSacristan
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# 11239
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Posted
I thought that a profound bow and a genuflection denote the same amount of reverence; they just have different histories. Surely if distinctions between reverences are going to be made, the altar without the sacrament merits a simple bow not a profound one.
In regard to the poster's question, Ritual Notes seems to have it both ways. It does admit that, historically speaking, a genuflection to the altar whether the sacrament is present or not is "correct." Perhaps it is agreeing with Fortescue? It does, however, go on to say that genuflection to the sacrament only is nigh universal practice, especially in Anglicanism, and it's this practice that it ultimately recommends.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
I'm sure many of us who grew up Roman Catholic have had the experience of genuflecting to the screen when entering a row of seats at the cinema.
Now, how about when returning to one's pew after receiving Holy Communion? I don't genuflect, partly because I want to get out of the way of the people behind me, and mostly because I've got the Blessed Sacrament within me and feel like I should do something different.
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BulldogSacristan
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# 11239
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Posted
I thought that a profound bow and a genuflection denote the same amount of reverence; they just have different histories. Surely if distinctions between reverences are going to be made, the altar without the sacrament merits a simple bow not a profound one.
In regard to the poster's question, Ritual Notes seems to have it both ways. It does admit that, historically speaking, a genuflection to the altar whether the sacrament is present or not is "correct." Perhaps it is agreeing with Fortescue? It does, however, go on to say that genuflection to the sacrament only is nigh universal practice, especially in Anglicanism, and it's this practice that it ultimately recommends.
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
I'm sure many of us who grew up Roman Catholic have had the experience of genuflecting to the screen when entering a row of seats at the cinema.
Now, how about when returning to one's pew after receiving Holy Communion? I don't genuflect, partly because I want to get out of the way of the people behind me, and mostly because I've got the Blessed Sacrament within me and feel like I should do something different.
I genuflect after rising from the rail, in a kind of, "Sorry, but I'm about to turn my back on you," way. I return to the pew via the side aisle so don't cross the axis that would prompt me to.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Genuflection is a Fond Thing Vainly Invented, and should be replaced by a reverent bow - whether to cross, altar, or MBS.
Well, that's what my increasingly creaky knees tell me. If I genuflect these days, I have to have something to hold onto, or I am likely to topple over into an unseemly and unedifying humpled creep.
Ian J.
On the handful of occasions I have celebrated with two other sacred ministers the Deacon was a lady in her sixties and the MC was a slip of a thing in her teens. The Deacon was newly ordained and, although she was very game, did not come from a tradition where one did that sort of thing, whereas the MC had been tatting round sanctuaries since primary school and intuitively 'got' liturgy so the two of us worked out the ceremonial and then told the Deacon what she was going to do!
Anyway, we knew that the Deacon could not genuflect without falling over so we agreed that the Deacon and MC should both give a profound bow whilst the Celebrant genuflected on the grounds that it made some sort of sense for the Celebrant to do one thing and the Deacon and MC another but less sense for the ministers at the altar to divide themselves on the grounds of youth and beauty, on the one hand, and age and decrepitude on the other. (I think we found tactful circumlocutions for this point.) My wife remarked, when I reported this exchange to her, that I should have grabbed the opportunity with both hands because my opportunities to identify with youth and beauty were fast running out which I thought was a) accurate and b) entirely uncalled for.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Choirboi
Shipmate
# 9222
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
In regard to the poster's question, Ritual Notes seems to have it both ways. It does admit that, historically speaking, a genuflection to the altar whether the sacrament is present or not is "correct." Perhaps it is agreeing with Fortescue? It does, however, go on to say that genuflection to the sacrament only is nigh universal practice, especially in Anglicanism, and it's this practice that it ultimately recommends.
Bulldog, can you provide page references?
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Like as the hart desireth the waterbrooks, so longeth my soul after Thee, O God.
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BulldogSacristan
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# 11239
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Posted
I certainly can! This is from the 11th Ed.
Chapter 4. Page 39.
"In service time, however, even when the Sacrament is not present, western rule prescribes that everyone (except the celebrant paratus and canons in their own cathedral, and bishops, who only bow) shall reverence the altar with a genuflexion, with the provision that in the absence of the reserved Sacrament this is done in actu functionis tantum, as mentioned above. On the other hand, when the sacrament is not present, the more general anglican custom is to bow only, and not genuflect."
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
I certainly can! This is from the 11th Ed.
Chapter 4. Page 39.
"In service time, however, even when the Sacrament is not present, western rule prescribes that everyone (except the celebrant paratus and canons in their own cathedral, and bishops, who only bow) shall reverence the altar with a genuflexion, with the provision that in the absence of the reserved Sacrament this is done in actu functionis tantum, as mentioned above. On the other hand, when the sacrament is not present, the more general anglican custom is to bow only, and not genuflect."
Can you clarify what in actu functionis tantum means? My Latin isn't up to it...
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
I certainly can! This is from the 11th Ed.
Chapter 4. Page 39.
"In service time, however, even when the Sacrament is not present, western rule prescribes that everyone (except the celebrant paratus and canons in their own cathedral, and bishops, who only bow) shall reverence the altar with a genuflexion, with the provision that in the absence of the reserved Sacrament this is done in actu functionis tantum, as mentioned above. On the other hand, when the sacrament is not present, the more general anglican custom is to bow only, and not genuflect."
Can you clarify what in actu functionis tantum means? My Latin isn't up to it...
It means that one genuflects during the liturgy, but not outside of it.
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
... you genuflect on the left knee and kiss his episcopal ring. Presumably, in the RCC, the Pope would count as such a bishop.
I have heard this 'left knee' business before, and have searched diligently in Fortescue and all the other ritual guides I have. AFAI can tell, NONE of them mention the 'left knee' business. Genuflection is defined as touching the right knee to the floor (none of this Episcopal lady curtsy business is countenanced!)
The only explanation I've ever encountered for this varied genuflection is 'That's the way I've always done it.' (which covers LOTS of liturgical variety, to be sure.
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You can't retire from a calling.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
I heard about this 'left knee' business in various forms, but as far as I can tell it has only ever been a sort of pious custome.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Probably not on the same page, but I always genuflect during the Stations of the Cross towards the image being contemplated, whether the MBS is in the church or not.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
... you genuflect on the left knee and kiss his episcopal ring. Presumably, in the RCC, the Pope would count as such a bishop.
I have heard this 'left knee' business before, and have searched diligently in Fortescue and all the other ritual guides I have. AFAI can tell, NONE of them mention the 'left knee' business. Genuflection is defined as touching the right knee to the floor (none of this Episcopal lady curtsy business is countenanced!)
The only explanation I've ever encountered for this varied genuflection is 'That's the way I've always done it.' (which covers LOTS of liturgical variety, to be sure.
Well, Fortescue is a liturgical guide; there isn't any kissing of the episcopal ring in the liturgy. But I suppose dj ordinaire is right that it's a pious custom.
[ 24. March 2014, 15:56: Message edited by: Fr Weber ]
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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thwarted_thurifer
Apprentice
# 16177
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
In my experience, at least when I was a youngster, genuflecting to an altar where the blessed sacrament was not reserved, was confined to pre-Vatican 2 anglo-papalists. It is many years since I last came across this practice.
I've followed that practice on the rare occasions i've served Low Mass at an altar without reservation, but would not do in the modern rite.
But then, the current roman regulations on when to bow and genuflect.. well! Open to interpretation...
Did Rome not abolish genuflecting to Bishops in the mid-80's? I remember doing it once or twice in my earlier days.
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Magic Wand
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# 4227
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
... you genuflect on the left knee and kiss his episcopal ring. Presumably, in the RCC, the Pope would count as such a bishop.
I have heard this 'left knee' business before, and have searched diligently in Fortescue and all the other ritual guides I have. AFAI can tell, NONE of them mention the 'left knee' business. Genuflection is defined as touching the right knee to the floor (none of this Episcopal lady curtsy business is countenanced!)
The only explanation I've ever encountered for this varied genuflection is 'That's the way I've always done it.' (which covers LOTS of liturgical variety, to be sure.
Well, Fortescue is a liturgical guide; there isn't any kissing of the episcopal ring in the liturgy. But I suppose dj ordinaire is right that it's a pious custom.
Surely there's lots of kissing the episcopal ring in the liturgy as Fortescue describes it? The crozier-bearer, every time he gives it to or receives it from the bishop, for example.
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by thwarted_thurifer:
Did Rome not abolish genuflecting to Bishops in the mid-80's? I remember doing it once or twice in my earlier days.
We still do it in anglo-catholic circles - even when we don't like the bishop concerned!
*especially when we don't like the bishop concerned..
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Wand:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
... you genuflect on the left knee and kiss his episcopal ring. Presumably, in the RCC, the Pope would count as such a bishop.
I have heard this 'left knee' business before, and have searched diligently in Fortescue and all the other ritual guides I have. AFAI can tell, NONE of them mention the 'left knee' business. Genuflection is defined as touching the right knee to the floor (none of this Episcopal lady curtsy business is countenanced!)
The only explanation I've ever encountered for this varied genuflection is 'That's the way I've always done it.' (which covers LOTS of liturgical variety, to be sure.
Well, Fortescue is a liturgical guide; there isn't any kissing of the episcopal ring in the liturgy. But I suppose dj ordinaire is right that it's a pious custom.
Surely there's lots of kissing the episcopal ring in the liturgy as Fortescue describes it? The crozier-bearer, every time he gives it to or receives it from the bishop, for example.
No Fortescue handy at the moment, but would the crozier-bearer kiss the ring or the hand?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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