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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Omitting the gloria patri
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
What are shipmates' views on omitting the gloria patri during part (or all?) of Lent? I've seen people saying it should be omitted only during the Triduum, and others for the week leading up to Palm Sunday and Holy Week. In some Evensongs I've heard it omitted after the psalm(s) but not after the canticles.
Should it be omitted during Lent? If so, on which days? Should it be omitted from certain parts of the service but not others? Is there any authority on this?!
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Never heard of it. Some of the offices are skipped by those participating in the Triduum services, so I suppose the gloria patri is omitted, along with everything else in that office!
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I was taught, by my first incumbent, that it ought to be omitted between Evening Prayer on Good Friday and Evening Prayer on Holy Saturday. I think that this was one of Father's little idiosyncracies rather than The Practice Of The Universal Church. I have always found it helpful but I suspect that it is not something I would go to the stake for.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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BulldogSacristan
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# 11239
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Posted
Isn't it omitted pretty universally from the Fifth Sunday in Lent until Easter?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I'm not sure which part of our liturgy corresponds to the Gloria. Probably the Trisagion/Holy God. Where in the service does it come?
Here's the Trisagion. It comes immediately before the reading of the epistle.
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us (3x)
Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages, Amen.
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us.
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
The Canadian prayer book makes a distinction between the Office (where the GP at the conclusion of each psalm "may be omitted on the last three days of Holy Week") and the Mass, where "Except in Passiontide the Gloria Patri may follow the Psalm" of the introit. (I believe this latter practice led to the name of "Judica Sunday" for [old] Passion Sunday, when the Gloria patri disappeared from the prayers at the foot of the altar).
[ 21. March 2014, 22:02: Message edited by: LQ ]
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
Mousethief,
in the Mass the Gloria is the hymn that is sung at mass after the Penitential Rite and before the Liturgy of the Word (readings from scripture). In the Byzantine Rite it corresponds to the Doxology sung or prayed at Matins.
The OP is asking about the Gloria Patri (aka "Glory Be") which is this part of the Trisagion you quoted: "Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages, Amen." At Mass it sung at the end of the proper chants except for the Offertory chant.
Before Vatican II a number of things were dropped from Mass during the last two weeks of Lent ("Passiontide"). I've got a couple of Tridentine missals but their stashed away somewhere. If the OP really wants to know how things were done he can google the terms "wikipedia" and "passiontide".
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
The OP is asking about the Gloria Patri (aka "Glory Be") which is this part of the Trisagion you quoted: "Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages, Amen." At Mass it sung at the end of the proper chants except for the Offertory chant.
Depending on when, if at all, one cuts out the Gloria Patri it's use at the Mass may be irrelevant given that the Mass is not celebrated between Good Friday and the First Mass of Easter which, at it's very earliest follows evening prayer on Holy Saturday.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
Correcting myself:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
The OP is asking about the Gloria Patri (aka "Glory Be") which is this part of the Trisagion you quoted: "Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages, Amen."
I just noticed the Byzantine version is slightly different from the Latin Rite version: "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end."
quote:
At Mass it sung at the end of the proper chants except for the Offertory chant.
To be more precise, it is sung at the end of the entrance chant (not sure if that's optional nowadays, the modern gradual prints them without the Gloria Patri) and it may be sung with the communion chant. It isn't sung at the end of the offertory or gradual chants or with the responsorial psalm in the Ordinary Form.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Erm. This may be a silly question, but why would one not want to glorify the Trinity during Lent or at any other time? Does anything make the Triune God become unworthy of being ascribed glory or is it that we are unworthy to praise him during this specific time?
Eliminating "alleluia" during Lent makes some sense to me; Lent isn't a time to burble with joy. But praise?
[ 21. March 2014, 22:50: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
The OP is asking about the Gloria Patri (aka "Glory Be") which is this part of the Trisagion you quoted: "Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages, Amen." At Mass it sung at the end of the proper chants except for the Offertory chant.
Depending on when, if at all, one cuts out the Gloria Patri it's use at the Mass may be irrelevant given that the Mass is not celebrated between Good Friday and the First Mass of Easter which, at it's very earliest follows evening prayer on Holy Saturday.
Except the OP wasn't limiting himself to the time between Good Friday and Easter:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
What are shipmates' views on omitting the gloria patri during part (or all?) of Lent?
<snip>
Should it be omitted during Lent? If so, on which days?
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Erm. This may be a silly question, but why would one not want to glorify the Trinity during Lent or at any other time? Does anything make the Triune God become unworthy of being ascribed glory or is it that we are unworthy to praise him during this specific time?
Eliminating "alleluia" during Lent makes some sense to me; Lent isn't a time to burble with joy. But praise?
The short answer is that there was a time in the very earliest centuries when the Christians in Rome hadn't yet begun to use "Glory be to the Father..." and "Hallelujah!" in their public prayer. The liturgy of the Latin Rite reflected that primitive practice of the Church during the last couple of weeks of Lent.
It wasn't so much that the Alleluia and Gloria Patri were dropped at that time. It's more that they were never added to the liturgy at that time in the first place
Edited to eliminate a typo. There's always a typo. Always.
[ 21. March 2014, 23:05: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Lyda*Rose,
I think the practice comes from a desire to simplify things. The Gloria Patri is normally sung or said after every psalm and canticle in the Offices - during Lent (or parts thereof) the custom sometimes exists to strip it away and recite the psalms 'bare'.
I do this myself during Holy Week. Possibly leaving a period of silence in its place. I don't know if this is a general practice, or even a good idea.. but, I dunno... it makes sense to me.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Roselyn
Shipmate
# 17859
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Posted
Maybe it's because the Gloria is one of the fun parts of the service that it is omitted while the more staid parts get lengthened.
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Interesting answers. Thanks all. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
The notes at the start of CWDP suggest omitting it during the triduum I believe.
Carys
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
Our USA BCP doesn't tell us to drop the Gloria Patri, but in our parish use, we do drop it in the Triduum; we have separate prepared booklets for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday Evening Prayer that reflect the traditional shrinking of the offices on those days (as one would find in the Anglican Breviary, for instance, although we don't exactly switch to the AB for those offices). Gone are the opening versicles, hymn, Gloria Patri, Creed, and some other bits, and the offices are concluded with Ps. 51 and a versicle and response on the text, "Christ was made obedient for us even unto death..." and this text shrinks, too (or does it start short and gain bits each day? I'd have to look it up). Interesting that in the AB, the office stays shrunken to some extent until Low Sunday.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Sing it whilst re-arranging the deckchairs.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
What are shipmates' views on omitting the gloria patri during part (or all?) of Lent? I've seen people saying it should be omitted only during the Triduum, and others for the week leading up to Palm Sunday and Holy Week. In some Evensongs I've heard it omitted after the psalm(s) but not after the canticles.
Should it be omitted during Lent? If so, on which days? Should it be omitted from certain parts of the service but not others? Is there any authority on this?!
Only in Passiontide, which is the last 2 weeks of Lent (including Holy Week). And yes, the GP is omitted from everything; the psalmody and canticles in the Office, the Introit and Lavabo at Mass, and anywhere else it appears.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
It depends on your authority.
The C of E Common Worship Daily Prayer on page xx gives the option at Morning, Evening and Night Prayer from the evening celebration of the Lord's Supper until the Easter Vigil "all glorias and doxologies are omitted".
I've looked up a pre Vatican II book of plainchant which is clear that for Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday, the Gloria Patri is omitted.
In the office of the Dead, Gloria Patri was replaced by "Requiem aeternum dona eis Domine. Et lux perpetua luceat eis".
The Gloria Patri would not be omitted in the rest of Lent.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
A parish in my past omitted the Gloria Patri from everything from Passion Sunday onwards. They said it was an 'inherited' thing; presumably from a former Rector. It made Matins and Evensong rather strange to be honest, although there were somewhat curious versicles in place of the usual - I'm afraid I can't remember what exactly they were now.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Can someone provide an authority for omitting GP from Lent 5 onwards, rather than just for the Triduum?
My Antiphonale Monasticum and Paroissien Romain only start omitting the GP on Maundy Thursday.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described (2nd and revised edition), Adrian Fortescue, p267: quote:
During the last fortnight of Lent, from Passion Sunday (Passiontide) the verse Gloria Patri in the office of the season is omitted at the invitatorium of Matins, at all responsories, at the Asperges, and introit and Lavabo of Mass.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
My church omits the Gloria during Advent and Lent, but we never exclude the Gloria Patri. I'm not quite sure of the reason although someone said there was no good purpose in omitting the words of praise at the end of the psalm. It seems to me that it should really be all or nothing to be consistent.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described (2nd and revised edition), Adrian Fortescue, p267: quote:
During the last fortnight of Lent, from Passion Sunday (Passiontide) the verse Gloria Patri in the office of the season is omitted at the invitatorium of Matins, at all responsories, at the Asperges, and introit and Lavabo of Mass.
Thank you. Does that include the psalms in the office? That would be consistent, but as I say it is not specified in the books I've seen.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Ritual Notes (usually pedantically Roman as far as possible) says the Gloria Patri is omitted from Lent 5 at the Venite at Morning Prayer. Nothing about omitting it for the psalms.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I scrupulously said Lent 5.
I've looked at a number of breviaries here, and the psalms retain the Gloria Patri up to Maundy Thursday.
Omitting the Gloria Patri is a bit like stripping the altar - a bit of austerity.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
venbede: I would assume that that didn't include the end of psalms. Fortescue is usually brief and says no more than he means. In the section on the Triduum he then says "The verses Gloria Patri and Sicut erat in principio are not said at any time, not even at the end of psalms."
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
This is all old-fashioned. Lent 5 is no longer' Passion Sunday' and passiontide doesn't start until the Palm Sunday liturgy.
Speak for yourself! The Methodist Worship Book calls Lent V the First Sunday of the Passion.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
seasick, your PM box runneth over!
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Sorry - now fixed.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Speak for yourself! The Methodist Worship Book calls Lent V the First Sunday of the Passion.
As did the RCC just prior to Vatican II. It would have been old fashioned at that point to talk of Lent 5. Which just shows fashion is not a good yardstick.
Fortescue refers to the mass. I'll look up my copy, but I'm pretty sure he is not referring to the office, from the breviaries and antiphonale I've consulted. Ritual Notes, adapting Roman guidelines for Anglican use, only recommends the omission for the Venite, not for the psalms in course.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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