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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A Good Friday Flick
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Roselyn
Shipmate
# 17859
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Posted
You may be interested in 'Paradiso at the Cathedral', a film festival hosted by The Right Reverend Greg Thompson, Bishop of Newcastle, Australia will play its fourth and final film of the festival this Thursday 10th April at 6.45pm with 'Searching for Sugar Man' (2010) by Malik Bendjellou.
During the traditional forty days of Lent, Novocastrians have had the opportunity to attend a film festival with a difference.
Posts: 98 | From: gold coast gld australia | Registered: Oct 2013
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
After all that, to support a film from a notorious anti-Semite, a Hollywood type, an actor and producer whose filmography is replete with all the shocking techniques he retreads in this film (the Mad Maxes, the Lethal Weapons, Apocalypto, Machete Kills, Get the Gringo, Payback--let's just forget Chicken Run please), to support a film from such an actor/producer that consistently throughout its length over-freights the narrative with blood and gore and explicit detail not found in the source texts, is just titillating theological fraud.
Well, no, that it isn't. I've been waiting for someone to state just exactly what is wrong with the theology of Gibson's film. Because I don't remember there to be all that much theology in that film, even implicitly. But it all appears to boil down to the movie critique equivalent of an argumentum ad hominem on one hand, as here, or whinging over supposedly "late medieval" styling on the other hand. And the latter once more seems to confuse purported corruptions of doctrine with, well, the "look and feel": it looks like what I imagine late medievals would love to see, and I don't like what I imagine late medievals would think about God, therefore I hate what I see.
Now, I thought that movie indeed suffered from depicting too much violence. It was pretty good and even innovative / daring in other ways. I also do not dig Mel Gibson's Sededeprivationism, or most of RC art for that matter (which tends to kitsch, and that doesn't get better if it is bloody). But I think in talking about the movie, we should primarily talk about the movie, not the director. And we should critique its "gore aesthetics" as aesthetics, not as some sign for vague associations with supposedly corrupt doctrine. And if we wish to say that the doctrinal message of the movie is wrong, which of course can be a fair comment as well, then we really should state what this doctrinal message is supposed to be.
Anyway, interesting thread otherwise which has given me some movies to look out for.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Mel Gibson, cool. Love most of his films, especially the Lethal Weapon films. Anyway, I didn't see much wrong with the Passion, except maybe for Pilate's accent or rather pronuncition. If it's bloody then that's most probably because the Passion was bloody, or does anyone think otherwise?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Anyway, I didn't see much wrong with the Passion, except maybe for Pilate's accent or rather pronuncition. If it's bloody then that's most probably because the Passion was bloody, or does anyone think otherwise?
Yes for sure it was bloody and violent, but the way it was shot in that film was needlessly gratuitous and titillating. Which is really inappropriate for the subject matter.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Anyway, I didn't see much wrong with the Passion, except maybe for Pilate's accent or rather pronuncition.
Too much Latin, not enough Greek.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
That's the way to miss the point, IngoB, which couldn't be more explicit in the head end of the post. quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Let's just pick Luke, because that's the gospel I've been in most recently, allowing that this may be the evangelist most reluctant to dwell on the gory bits.
22:6 the men began beating him
23:32 they crucified him
23:44 It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon (to get the duration of the torture)
That is it. That is all the gore one can wring out of that account.
I'll grant you that "to mock" and any arrest of an insurgent in first-century Palestine probably implies more than just words and gentle custodial treatment.
Otherwise, in your first paragraph, with your nattering about ad hominen attacks and care for late-mediaeval sensitivities, you are just phoning it in.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Anyway, I didn't see much wrong with the Passion, except maybe for Pilate's accent or rather pronuncition.
Too much Latin, not enough Greek.
I saw an interview with the language adviser on the film, who more or less said (if I remember right) that having Greek as well would have been just too much to cope with, so they decided not to include it.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Anyway, I didn't see much wrong with the Passion, except maybe for Pilate's accent or rather pronuncition. If it's bloody then that's most probably because the Passion was bloody, or does anyone think otherwise?
Yes for sure it was bloody and violent, but the way it was shot in that film was needlessly gratuitous and titillating. Which is really inappropriate for the subject matter.
This was an 'adult' film, so people who hate excessive violence should't have gone to see it. But the power of advertising makes us do things that are out of character, I suppose!
BTW, a church near me will be showing 'The Miracle Maker' later in the month. I might go to see it. I don't expect it to be very controversial.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
I saw an interview with the language adviser on the film, who more or less said (if I remember right) that having Greek as well would have been just too much to cope with, so they decided not to include it.
But it ruined the claim for "authenticity", as it would have been very unlikely that any Latin at all would have been used
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Mel Gibson, cool. Love most of his films, especially the Lethal Weapon films. Anyway, I didn't see much wrong with the Passion, except maybe for Pilate's accent or rather pronuncition. If it's bloody then that's most probably because the Passion was bloody, or does anyone think otherwise?
You can take the Roman Catholic out of Roman Catholicism, but you can't take the Roman Catholicism out of the Roman Catholic....
I'd recommend meditating on some Holy Icons of the Passion to see how the Orthodox Church treats the blood and gore.
Yes, the real, historical "Passion" was doubtless even more horrific than the film's portrayal. But Tradition doesn't tell us to focus on that fact.
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
I saw an interview with the language adviser on the film, who more or less said (if I remember right) that having Greek as well would have been just too much to cope with, so they decided not to include it.
But it ruined the claim for "authenticity", as it would have been very unlikely that any Latin at all would have been used
Possibly, although the gospels say the sign over the cross was in Latin, Greek and Hebrew. But Jim Caveziel for one had enough trouble as it was with some of the dialogue by all accounts (and the actors were from several different countries so spoke different languages anyway), so perhaps it was just too difficult.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
You can take the Roman Catholic out of Roman Catholicism, but you can't take the Roman Catholicism out of the Roman Catholic.... I'd recommend meditating on some Holy Icons of the Passion to see how the Orthodox Church treats the blood and gore.
Orthodox icon writing is stylised and regulated. It is rather unfair to compare this to the freer artistic expressions that began to develop in the West in late medieval times. Icons written in the West are not much different from those of the East up to this point in time, and where we find Christian art that continues to be stylised and regulated in the West - e.g., in Church windows - there is no particular trend to blood and gore.
In fact, the first clear sign of Christ suffering on the cross was a Byzantine invention. Namely, the now traditional slumped S-shape of the body of Christ on the cross in icons was first developed by Eastern Christians, and replaced the up to this point prevalent Christ standing tall and strong in spite of being crucified. And for that matter, the cross only became considered appropriate for depiction with the purported discovery of the True Cross by Empress Helena, mother of Emperor Constantine the Great. Before that, it was the resurrection of Christ that was the main topic of art.
Thus we can validly say that the East 1) made the cross the key symbol of Christianity, if perhaps unintentionally, and 2) first made the suffering of Christ on the cross visible. The West, by seriously unleashing artistic creativity, may well have made the torrents of Christ's blood really flow in art. But the origin of this trend is the East, which dominated Christian art for many centuries.
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
Yes, the real, historical "Passion" was doubtless even more horrific than the film's portrayal. But Tradition doesn't tell us to focus on that fact.
We can find much the same commentary on the "blood sacrifice" of Christ in the Eastern Fathers (St Gregory Nazianzus, St Cyril of Alexandria, etc.) and later Easter saints (e.g., St Gregory Palamas) as among Western writers. It is not a particular point of difference, other than for the ease with which one can access the various texts online or find competent summaries of them. Here's for example St John Chrysostom's Sermon on Good Friday. Obviously, that's not "torture porn". However, works of art (Western 'free' works of art) are typically reflections of and/or commentaries on society. So we cannot just compare Gibson's film with the "best of class" theological sermons of tradition. The question has to be whether the film is in its violence a valid link of such traditional theology to the modern state of mind, or not. In other words: is this an expression of our social violence in terms of this religious topic, or is this an artistic comment on this religious topic reminding us of its violent aspects, or is this just a splatter movie which steals respectability from its religious topic? Something like that...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The West, by seriously unleashing artistic creativity, may well have made the torrents of Christ's blood really flow in art.
Indeed. But that hardly makes it a good thing. After all, more recent "unleashing" of "artistic creativity" has given us a crucifix in a jar of urine and a Virgin Mary made out of elephant dung, neither of which made Catholics very happy.
And please don't shoot back that the Late Medieval "unleashing" you refer to was guided and blessed by the Church, thus making it right and good! Because this was the very same Church that was guiding and blessing bloody crusades, persecution of Jews, and the torture and burning of "heretics." To be mild, "mistakes were made."
So, I have serious doubts about the ability of the Late Medieval Church to function as an effective art critic!
quote:
Here's for example St John Chrysostom's Sermon on Good Friday. Obviously, that's not "torture porn".
Quite! So this lovely sermon by Archbishop Goldenmouth actually supports my argument. He is very restrained in his discussion of the details of the Passion. All he does it bring out the significance of what John's Gospel mentions.
If you think I'm arguing that we should never mention or think about Jesus' blood, you've really misunderstood and misrepresented me! St John Chrysostom's sermon is exactly what I think is appropriate and "orthodox."
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
How about the recent miniseries "The Bible"? It originally aired on US network television so it's not as violent as films are. The episodes on Jesus and the Crucifixion would be good. They should be on DVD now.
IMDb - The Bible
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Dubious Thomas and others -
scattergun assertions about the behaviour of Roman Catholicism in the middle ages doesn't really belong on this thread. We were being pretty permissive by allowing the tangent on graphic imagery to keep running - but at least that is clearly relevant to the wider question of Good Friday observances.
Time to get back on topic, methinks.
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Dubious Thomas and others -
scattergun assertions about the behaviour of Roman Catholicism in the middle ages doesn't really belong on this thread. We were being pretty permissive by allowing the tangent on graphic imagery to keep running - but at least that is clearly relevant to the wider question of Good Friday observances.
Time to get back on topic, methinks.
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
Do I understand correctly that Styx is where I am supposed to post a question about this ruling?
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Dubious Thomas and others -
scattergun assertions about the behaviour of Roman Catholicism in the middle ages doesn't really belong on this thread. We were being pretty permissive by allowing the tangent on graphic imagery to keep running - but at least that is clearly relevant to the wider question of Good Friday observances.
Time to get back on topic, methinks.
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
Do I understand correctly that Styx is where I am supposed to post a question about this ruling?
Yes, that is correct!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I like The Robe, which suffers from some the usual problems with films from the 1950s, but tells a good story.
quote:
Marcellus is a tribune in the time of Christ. He is in charge of the group that is assigned to crucify Jesus. Drunk, he wins Jesus' homespun robe after the crucifixion. He is tormented by nightmares and delusions after the event. Hoping to find a way to live with what he has done, and still not believing in Jesus, he returns to Palestine to try and learn what he can of the man he killed.
I also like Jesus of Montreal which is about a passion play put on by an acting troupe, one of whom has experiences in Montreal which resemble the passion. I suspect this is too 'out there' for the OP group.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The Robe is considered one of the worst movies ever made. Go with Ben Hur if you want a movie of that sort. Don't know about the other one.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I like The Robe, which suffers from some the usual problems with films from the 1950s, but tells a good story.
quote:
Marcellus is a tribune in the time of Christ. He is in charge of the group that is assigned to crucify Jesus. Drunk, he wins Jesus' homespun robe after the crucifixion. He is tormented by nightmares and delusions after the event. Hoping to find a way to live with what he has done, and still not believing in Jesus, he returns to Palestine to try and learn what he can of the man he killed.
I also like Jesus of Montreal which is about a passion play put on by an acting troupe, one of whom has experiences in Montreal which resemble the passion. I suspect this is too 'out there' for the OP group.
On the contrary, I think it would work very well wit the OP's group.
I hove used that film with students of a similar age - they stayed and talked about it for a long time afterwards.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The Robe is considered one of the worst movies ever made. ...
Wow. By whom? I've never seen it, but against all the unmemorable dross I have seen over the years, that's quite a rating.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
So what movie did you choose?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
The Son of God documentary (The Final Hours) from BBC.
But no one came. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
The good news is two students (Yes TWO! OMFG - its a revival!) came to the service beforehand that I had to create and lead alone (first time). Hallelujah!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 23. April 2014, 07:15: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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