|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Celtic liturgy
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
What is your opinion of Celtic liturgy?
I haven't had much experience of it, but some people seem drawn to it.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
|
Posted
As someone who has done a little historical study of liturgy, I find the phrase 'Celtic Liturgy' a little puzzling.
It never seems to mean anything I know of genuine historical precedence for - the Stowe Missal, or things like that.
Most of the books of the Celtic Liturgy trend I've seen seem to be low on indications of sources. Does it have any real ties to anything truly Celtic? Or is it entirely a modern creation?
Posts: 405 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
|
Posted
The Church in Wales has a page on its website on this subject which is informative and balanced.
It makes the point that the Celtic Church didn't exist as a separate entity it was merely "the Church" as manifested in Celtic lands before the great schism of 1054.
I think there is quite a lot of material in the form of texts, though little or nothing in the way of liturgical structures, and only a small amount known about the daily or weekly cycle of life in churches in the Celtic regions.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
Wee Frees chanting psalms in Gaelic. That's proper Celtic liturgy. As well as being one of the most amazing musical sounds you ever heard.
--------------------
Ken
Lamor che move il sole e laltre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Wee Frees chanting psalms in Gaelic. That's proper Celtic liturgy. As well as being one of the most amazing musical sounds you ever heard.
Agreed! I have two CDs of this - awesome.
As for "Celtic Liturgy" in general...
I have a deep interest in the ancient celtic Christians and have also looked at a lot of modern celtic writings and liturgy. It is all very variable. Some, quite frankly, is over-sentimentalised dross.
The Iona Community has produced a lot of really good stuff, although whether they would want it to be labelled as "celtic" is another matter. I would certainly recommend checking out their resources - especially their Community Worship Book.
Other "providers" include the Northumberland Community and the Community of Aidan and Hilda. Both of these have been quite prolific (although variable in quality). Also worth checking out is David Adam, who was the vicar on Lindisfarne for some years.
Celtic liturgies can work well, if done thoughtfully. But there always needs to be the awareness that what we call "celtic" bears little relation to the ancient celtic Christians like Columba or Aidan.
I would also encourage reading about the subject in general. One book worth getting is Celtic Christianty by Ian Bradley. He is someone who has written a lot about Celtic Christianity and then started reevaluating what he and others had written.
--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibįwa weyu lįrigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
Most of the books of the Celtic Liturgy trend I've seen seem to be low on indications of sources. Does it have any real ties to anything truly Celtic? Or is it entirely a modern creation?
A very major source seems to be Carmina Gadelica which is a 19th century collection of gaelic-language prayers. There seems to be an assumption that no liturgical development happened at all in the gaelic-speaking parts of Scotland, while the rest of the UK was becoming Roman, becoming Protestant and so on. I don't see much hard evidence for this assumption.
However, it could be argued that people have been making up slightly romantic things about 'celtic spirituality' for so long that doing so must be considered an authentic spiritual practice.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
From CL's Link, quoted from the Stowe Missal's "Prayer of Humble Access":
'I am unworthy because I filthily adhere to the mire of dung and all my good deeds are like a rag used by a menstual woman'.
I love how that manages to be both feminist and misogynist at the same time. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
Although we know little about it and there's a whole lot of speculation and hooey claiming to be the Celtic Rite, there was a diversity of practices in the Celtic parts of the British Isles in the Early Middle Ages and some of them varied considerably from the rest of Christendom. The most famous example is the whole idea of giving absolution in auricular confession before a penance was performed. This spread and became the norm in the West. If it wasn't for this, we'd still have sinners walking around in hair shirts, etc., for who knows how long before they returned to the priest for absolution. Maybe people don't take penance as seriously now, but the whole current system of offering confession to people probably would not work without this Celtic way of doing things.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
It's worth taking note of what Fr Hunwicke says on this. e.g.
quote:
The 'Celtic' saints are distant figures in the past who , when they were alive, were rather combative old people but pose no particular threats to us now because they're in books and so they can be moulded to our own fads by suppressions and misrepresentations.
They've got quite a lot to say to us, but only if we make the effort to try to meet them as they really were rather than project onto them a rosy, new age travesty of themselves.
Even in summer when the nights are shorter, I could not pray all night in the North Sea.
Ken is also right to draw our attention to what should be the obvious fact that one can't have Celtic spirituality by omitting everything that has happened since the Synod of Whitby. Real Celts wail psalms in Gaelic, even though the style of singing is how we all sang them in English until the late C17. It's also ferocious sabbatarianism, hwyl, the Great Revival of 1904, Magdalene Laundries and Billie Bray.
quote:
Revival ran along the hedge
And made my spirit whole
When steam was on the window panes
And glory in my soul.
If one's going to look for a genuine Celtic liturgy, rather than speculating about the ancient past, perhaps the places to start are the service books of the Church in Wales, the current practices of the RCC in Ireland and the Church of Scotland and the various varieties of free churches in the Western Isles.
There was also a television series a year or two ago about parish life in South Uist, which is predominantly RC.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
I have a suspicion that "celtic", like "Sarum", is used as a cover for slipping in catholic (eg, embodied, symbolic, ritual, sacramental) practice without admitting we have anything in common with those dreadful RCs.
Ken is quite right that genuinely celtic covers a whole lot more than the term is usually used to cover, including a whole raft of protestant tradition more exciting than middle of the road stuff.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
|
Posted
As soon as you start to "go celtic" you start to pick and choose which bits you want. But then, we all tend to do that anyway. Most Evangelicals I know pick and choose which bits of Evangelicalism they want to adopt. Ditto for Catholics. It's what we do.
The key thing is to admit that you do it and not fool yourself (or try to fool others) that you're adopting "pure" celtic christianity (or "pure evangelicalism" or...).
Personally, I am shameless about the fact that the things I take from celtic christianity are mostly to do with awareness of nature/creation and the sense of the nearness of God. I am very aware that there are other aspects of "celtic christianity" that I choose to ignore on the grounds that they don't interest me.
(Then again, I am an instinctive post-modern magpie who takes whatever bright shiny things grab my attention. This is me and I have learned not to pretend otherwise)
--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibįwa weyu lįrigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
|
Posted
Whenever I have been subjected to 'Celtic worship', it has usually involved stones. Stones that you hold on to and warm with your hands/use to meditate upon the deep earth/place in water so that they become shiny and beautiful/whatever. During ministry training conferences, it became a kind of a running joke among my peers, as Cottontail once more sagged and groaned, Not more bloody stones.
I am a farmer's daughter. I spent a week as a kid clearing stones from a field. That is, actually picking them up bodily and flinging them into the back of a trailer. I was with my father and my sisters, and it wasn't unpleasant, but it was bloody hard work. I have no sentimentality left for stones. They are not spiritual things. They are just stones.
--------------------
"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
I love this Ship ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Thank you all for helping me to get some perspective on this.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
There is an awful lot of junk that passes itself as 'Celtic' Christianity. Here in Ireland it is remarkable what this brings up from time to time; the sentimentalising of nature (which the early Irish saints had a tendency to connect with the wrath of God rather than lovely dovey stuff), the heretical replacement of the Trinity with 'Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer', wishy washy prayers about birds and other 'nice' animals and peculiar appeals to the elements. On the other hand there is quite a lot of material which rarely makes its way into these 'Celtic' liturgies. There is the Lorrha Stowe (mentioned by the rather acidic Fr Hunwicke) that has a lot of fantastic material, the Bangor Antiphonary is also a wonderful source of how 'offices' were composed and used. There are other sources too, like the later Medieval Offices of St Patrick, St Killian, St Kevin, St Brigid and St Fintan....to name but a few. Some of them have never actually been translated into English (although I think it used to be possible to get the Office of St Patrick and St Killian on CD), but whether they are entirely later material is debatable. The Saint's 'Life' documents that proliferate early Irish Christianity do occasionally make reference to liturgical material - again, it's rather hard to know if this is current (to the time of writing) or a reference to older material, although in these instances it appears to be referencing older material. The Carmina Gaedelica is very often poo-hoo'ed by Celtic Studies here as having been greatly tampered with and very much collected and recorded out of context - I simply don't have enough knowledge to know if this is correct or not, but it does have some interesting material.
The other things to note, in the Irish context at least, is the fascination with Tobit, a book that tends to be a little overlooked these days in church circles. A large amount of stories and prayers associated with the saints also make rather obscure references and tell tall tales that are references something; usually a Biblical story or a reference to an OT prophet, which can make them rather difficult to read and understand what they are on about sometimes. Overall, it is quite clear that they were happy to use scripture in a way that we might be a little uncomfortable with today. Material that does seem to be sourced from an actual saint or contemporaneous to them often reads in a rather blunt fashion with very clipped Irish, usually translated incredibly badly and in a very flowery way, divesting it of all its blunt directness.
There is also a very curious thing when it comes to the story of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. The early Saints were quite happy to read themselves, their lives and experiences directly into the text in a way that would make most of us feel very uneasy. Its rather hard to explain, but they essentially 'translate' their lives and experiences through the medium of the story of Jesus, which we of course do to an extent, but not to the same degree as they did.
Add to this the seeming delight in isolation, the insistence of the Trinity permeating everything, the surrender to the harshness of the elements, the whole concept of sin (which is quite different from how we understand it today in some respects) and the sense of making the fabric of the earth itself holy (and physically touched by the Gospel) and we can get somewhere close to early Irish Christianity. Whether that can be labelled 'Celtic' and distinctive to this island (and maybe a few other places) is up for debate I guess.
[ 02. April 2014, 10:58: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
Whenever I have been subjected to 'Celtic worship', it has usually involved stones. Stones that you hold on to and warm with your hands/use to meditate upon the deep earth/place in water so that they become shiny and beautiful/whatever. During ministry training conferences, it became a kind of a running joke among my peers, as Cottontail once more sagged and groaned, Not more bloody stones.
I am a farmer's daughter. I spent a week as a kid clearing stones from a field. That is, actually picking them up bodily and flinging them into the back of a trailer. I was with my father and my sisters, and it wasn't unpleasant, but it was bloody hard work. I have no sentimentality left for stones. They are not spiritual things. They are just stones.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Too too true.
--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibįwa weyu lįrigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
For those who are interested Fr Hunwicke wrote a paper on the Stowe Missal for the Royal Irish Academy journal a few years ago. It's available here:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/25506158?uid=3738232&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21103785500447
Taking the opportunity to be true to what I said on another thread recently about Jstor, what's the point of providing a link to a site that not only charges to view, but overcharges and is committed to the commoditisation rather than dissemination of the wisdom of the nations.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
For those who are interested Fr Hunwicke wrote a paper on the Stowe Missal for the Royal Irish Academy journal a few years ago. It's available here:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/25506158?uid=3738232&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21103785500447
Taking the opportunity to be true to what I said on another thread recently about Jstor, what's the point of providing a link to a site that not only charges to view, but overcharges and is committed to the commoditisation rather than dissemination of the wisdom of the nations.
Because some people will have access, and the paper isn't going to be (legally) available anywhere else online?
Posts: 405 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
I think the Whitley Stokes documents regarding the Stowe are available online for free; it's just a question of taking the time to hunt them down. They are a little 'old hat' now, but they are fairly solid in terms of scholarship, and a lot less 'playing to the crowd'.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
You can read for free on jstor. It is download that costs money. For those who think that "open" is the way forward please realise it just means the academic who did the work pays the price of publishing. In other words you have only moved the cost from the reader to the writer.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
A church near us has been refurbished / redecorated with extensive and rather beautiful use of Celtic knotwork designs. It is offering midweek services "based on the tradition of the Celtic church."
This church can trace in roots back to Celtic times, although I'm not clear what evidence there is for its Celtic forms of worship. What is known is that it was part of the mid-11th century reorganisation under King Malcolm and Queen / St Margaret.
This thread has made me curious - I'm going to try to attend one of their mid-week Celtic services. IIRC, I've been told that these services are particularly popular with the local East European community.
[ 20. April 2014, 17:31: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
It will be interesting to hear your account of it once you've been, North East Quine, and whether or not you will go back.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
I turned up for the 12 noon service today, and was told that due to the low numbers attending, the midweek Celtic services have been suspended meanwhile.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
|
Posted
Read anything by David Adam - especially his liturgical stuff. Don't how much of it our Celtic forebears would have recognised (some certainly since he quotes stuff attributed to them by old sources), but what the heck? They've inspired him to write some contemporary, relevant and profound liturgical tools and reflections. Just enjoy.
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
Thank you both. We're constantly revisiting the old and making it new. I like the idea, but will be discerning.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
I've attended parish retreats on Lindisfarne, the Northumbrian Holy Isle, the base of Aidan and a number of other Celtic saints and where the Lindisfarne gospels were written. David Adam was the vicar there for a while, but some of the talks I went to on Lindisfarne suggested his work wasn't as well researched as other materials, so not as rooted in the Celtic tradition. The services I attended there were traditional CofE with a Franciscan flavour.
Other than Ireland, the other Celtic base is Iona, a Hebridean island - and the materials from there are the Wild Goose materials, with a slightly more non-conformist slant - masses and masses of resources in the shop there (I was there last week).
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
the heretical replacement of the Trinity with 'Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer'
While I share your dislike of the pseudo sentimentality of much that goes by the name of Celtic Christianity, I'd be interested to know what you find heretical about Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer. The catechism in the Book of Common Prayer has the follwing question and answer:
"Question. What dost thou chiefly learn in these Articles of thy Belief?
Answer. First, I learn to believe in God the Father, who hath made me, and all the world.
Secondly, in God the Son, who hath redeemed me, and all mankind.
Thirdly, in God the Holy Ghost, who sanctifieth me, and all the elect people of God."
I see Maker, Redeemer and Sanctifier as perfectly acceptable descriptions of the persons of the Trinity.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
In short, opera Trinitatis ad extra sunt indivisa - the external works of the Trinity are indivisible. The Trinity creates, the Trinity redeems, the Trinity sanctifies.
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
In short, opera Trinitatis ad extra sunt indivisa - the external works of the Trinity are indivisible. The Trinity creates, the Trinity redeems, the Trinity sanctifies.
I'd suggest this means the statement per se is not heretical, it only becomes it because in that exact context we are so used to 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' that we automatically associate the work to the person in a way that the text itself does not support, but a way that is pretty much heretical in its liturgical context.
Posts: 405 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I'd be interested to know what you find heretical about Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer
It's modalism, pure and simple.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
In short, opera Trinitatis ad extra sunt indivisa - the external works of the Trinity are indivisible. The Trinity creates, the Trinity redeems, the Trinity sanctifies.
I'd suggest this means the statement per se is not heretical, it only becomes it because in that exact context we are so used to 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' that we automatically associate the work to the person in a way that the text itself does not support, but a way that is pretty much heretical in its liturgical context.
Indeed: the phrase is not inherently an heretical description of God, but the liturgical use (replacing a customary Trinitarian formula) is dangerous. The genuinely problematic use is using "creator, redeemer and sustainer" as a baptismal formula.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I turned up for the 12 noon service today, and was told that due to the low numbers attending, the midweek Celtic services have been suspended meanwhile.
But it's still listed on said church's website.
I feel this might really belong to a new thread: but I get SO ANNOYED when websites are inaccurate and out of date! Your email ties in nicely with an article I read only yesterday: here are the first few paragraphs which will give you the flavour.
Ho hum, better check our own website - it's probably still advertising the services for Christmas 2011 ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) . (Actually saying that is to do a grave disservice to our Webmaster!)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
Indeed: the phrase is not inherently an heretical description of God, but the liturgical use (replacing a customary Trinitarian formula) is dangerous. The genuinely problematic use is using "creator, redeemer and sustainer" as a baptismal formula.
That is well put. At least IMO it's better than statements which depersonalise "Father" in the name of being gender-neutral, but leave "Son" and "Spirit" unchanged.
I don't think there can ever be any perfect Trinitarian designations.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Other than Ireland, the other Celtic base is Iona, a Hebridean island - and the materials from there are the Wild Goose materials, with a slightly more non-conformist slant - masses and masses of resources in the shop there (I was there last week).
Well only if Govan has Celtic Heritage. The ambiguity there is intended.
The story is of a desire to have a seminary for Church of Scotland Ministers in the highlands crossing with George Macleods desire to do something to foster Urban Mission within the Church of Scotland. Both of which came to focus on the ruins of Iona Abbey. This has led to a strong concentration on building community and taking the side of the marginalised. However with restoring the living quarters of the Benedictine Abbey they inherited a Celtic aura. I think it was when Peter McIntosh was warden that this was first embraced rather than held at arms length this aura.
It is in trying to make sense of the different strands that are pulled together that makes Iona Community what it is.
Jengie
[ 09. June 2014, 21:29: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
I am a farmer's daughter. I spent a week as a kid clearing stones from a field. That is, actually picking them up bodily and flinging them into the back of a trailer. I was with my father and my sisters, and it wasn't unpleasant, but it was bloody hard work. I have no sentimentality left for stones. They are not spiritual things. They are just stones.
That reminds me of kangaroos. But perhaps that's a digression!
--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
a strong concentration on building community
JJ, I'm having not a lot of success with that link ...
Sorry
That was a late change and well and truly mangled I have corrected it in above link .
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I'd be interested to know what you find heretical about Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer
It's modalism, pure and simple.
Which gives me the opportunity to link to this in case some have not seen it. And it has a Celtic link, too!
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I turned up for the 12 noon service today, and was told that due to the low numbers attending, the midweek Celtic services have been suspended meanwhile.
But it's still listed on said church's website.
I feel this might really belong to a new thread: but I get SO ANNOYED when websites are inaccurate and out of date! Your email ties in nicely with an article I read only yesterday: here are the first few paragraphs which will give you the flavour.
Ho hum, better check our own website - it's probably still advertising the services for Christmas 2011 . (Actually saying that is to do a grave disservice to our Webmaster!)
They are apparently hoping to restart; they took my phone number and will phone to let me know if they do restart. But meantime, they're leaving details of the non-existent services on the website.
What isn't, alas, on the website, is a service which may or may not be Celtic, who knows? It's the blessing of the the river at the start of the salmon fishing season and involves throwing a quaich of whisky into the water and then drinking the rest of the whisky.
Anyone know if this is the correct Celtic liturgical practice for blessing rivers?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Nope; but I know how to bless cattle in the Orthodox tradition and the Episcopalian tradition. Does that count?
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
I'd've thought the correct practice would probably involve standing in the river all through winter, saying prayers! I'm always intrigued that contemporary publications on Celtic liturgy/spirituality seem to brush over the rather extreme asceticism of what would seem to me to be the real Celtic tradition.
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Part of that is foolishness. In the Irish tradition many examples of this are offered in texts and stories in a comical, humorous and even mocking way, as an example of extreme religious fervour presented as a 'bad' thing. It raises an interesting approach to how the ancient Irish church understood its saints and holy men/women. To give a more concrete example, there is a text associated with Saint Monnina, later incorporated into the Life document (somewhat edited!) in which she is presented in very mocking terms regarding the strictness of the level of fasting she imposed upon the nuns in her community which nearly bring them to the brink of death. In the text is a reference to the belief that 'she needs a little meat'. She was considered to be very attractive, so I don't think they were referring to food.
The most famous case here of that type of behaviour is Saint Kevin who is said to have stood in the cold winter lake when saying his office. Oral stories (sometimes referred to by Yeats - although I have never seen it myself - and mainly collated by Lady Gregory in more recent terms) tie the story to another tale of him throwing away his office book into the lake in a fit of ungodly rage, but the very next day finds an otter on the shore playing with it. I suppose the inference is that even God's creatures won't let him escape his duty to God. Oral stories of this type are still told here, but they are slowly disappearing. When they are told, it is not in a serious way (even though it might be a serious point), nor are they ever told as if they are true - and that is part of the difficulty I have with much of the modern stuff written on 'Celtic' Christian beliefs. It so often misunderstands and misinterprets the elements of the stories, being rather innocent of the inferences, innuendoes and imagery and with a clear lack of understanding of the role of a seanchaķ in Irish society and community.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
Thank you Curiosity killed... Very worthwhile reading, not least because of Ken's input.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Posted by Curiosity Killed:
quote:
Digging around in Oblivion, I found an earlier thread on Celtic Christianity which might be of some interest.
Hehe, yes. I've been thinking about that thread and wondering what I wrote (gosh that's a long time ago!). Been on a reading and research mission ever since.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Part of that is foolishness.
Then by your own logic, part of it is not.
For example, I find no indication in the 10th chapter of Bede's Life of Cuthbert that Bede intends to mock or sneer at Cuthbert's practice of standing in the surf while praying.
--------------------
Foržon we sealon efestan žas Easterlican žing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, žaet we magon cuman to žam Easterlican daege, že aa byš, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Posted by Mockingbird:
quote:
Then by your own logic, part of it is not.
Yes. There is never a 'one fits all' all approach to any literature, particularly religious literature.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
St Cuthbert's Church of Scotland at the West End of Princes St. Edinburgh used to advertise regular
'Celtic worship'.I always used to smile when I passed by,as it made imagine that they were worshipping the (mainly Catholic) Celtic football club,rather than the (mainly Protestant)Rangers football club.
Near to St Cuthbert's is the Jesuit Sacred Heart church which used to advertise an annual Mass for 'deceased Rangers'.This made me chuckle also,although I think that the Rangers in question had been some sort of Girl Guides.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
