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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Maundy Thursday and Female Feet
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I get that Jesus washed the Apostles' feet at the Last Supper and that all the Apostles were male.
He did his Mum's too. Her bunions were killing her after that walk in from Bethany.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Roselyn
Shipmate
# 17859
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Posted
The trouble with feet washing is we don't do it. Presumably when Jesus got down like a slave or servant those present were shocked that he was washing their feet not that someone was. Should we do this as people come into the church? should we offer hand washing, taking coats (in cold climates) Should we ask incomers "can we help you?" like a McD person at the counter. The awkwardness of feet washing in local culture often takes over from the real scandal of the original occasion.
Posts: 98 | From: gold coast gld australia | Registered: Oct 2013
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
We did a version of feetwashing that shocked our Asian congregation. It was a church potluck, and the pastor and I (another high-status leader) grabbed the rolling garbage cans and began walking them around the tables, collecting used napkins and paper plates, etc. Well, in Vietnam the leaders don't sully their hands with such menial tasks on their own behalf, let alone serving the ordinary folk that way. It was a stunner (and shortly afterward we had a real downturn in squabbles in the congregation over status, yay!).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It's difficult to think of a common servile action that we would expect someone of very low status do for us. It may have been the case a few generations ago that certain tasks would have been considered menial - preparing food, cleaning dishes, washing clothing, cleaning the house. But, for the majority of us, they have becomes less menial thanks to technology and things that everyone would do with the exception of the minority who can afford to pay someone to do that.
I can't think of many things that would be automatically assumed to be below our dignity for the majority of the people in church. And, even if I could what in that list could be translated into a liturgical action?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Lamb Chopped, my post was written while you were writing.
In my experience it is not unusual to find the minister in the kitchen washing dishes or helping with clearing up after a church lunch.
Yes, it's a great example of service in action. But, how could that be used in a liturgical context?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
The local bishops took to cleaning people's shoes for them as a 'substitute in kind'. The symbolism isn't quite the same but I think it works well nonetheless ...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Our Maundy Thursday worship is held in the context of a church potluck, so it works very well for us. The garbage-gathering is, I suppose, a liturgical action. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
But I don't know what we'd do if we were limited to a non-eating space.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
My Greek prof was convinced that there were women and children present, at least for the main meal. A seder is, after all, a family meal.
I've seen it this way for quite a while, though with the reservation that the disciples, having left their homes ad families, formed a surrogate family, a bit like a bikie gang.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I'm not in favor of going away from foot washing in the Maundy Thursday service, but you could add outside of worship or even Holy Week having people in the parish clean each others' toilets and having the pastor clean 12 people's toilets. The only problem becomes one of status when some parishioners might not have a toilet that is private enough for them to be able to give permission for someone else to clean it (and some parishioners may be homeless, too).
I shudder at the thought of it and would find any excuse possible to avoid doing it, so that probably means it's a good idea, although maybe too impractical.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Maybe only men have dirty smelly feet ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Maybe only men have dirty smelly feet
I suspect that Bib has never been on the Camino to Santiago de Compostela. I am happy to provide the assurance that there are thousands of female feet which can be easily characterized as smelly and dirty.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917
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Posted
Unfortunately, I can confirm from personal experience that female feet can be smelly. Mr Bug calls my feet 'Damp Things'. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor
Posts: 1189 | From: West of the New Forest | Registered: Sep 2010
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I recall, post-my first Camino, two GLEs grilling me on what might have been my most remarkable spiritual experience on the Camino, and I told them that it was in a pilgrims' albergue in (I think) Najera which had about a dozen people in a circle attending the blisters and bruises of each other's feet. There was no common language among them, and they were all dog tired, and would soon have their own feet tended to.
Apparently it was the wrong answer.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
My Greek prof was convinced that there were women and children present, at least for the main meal. A seder is, after all, a family meal.
I've seen it this way for quite a while, though with the reservation that the disciples, having left their homes ad families, formed a surrogate family, a bit like a bikie gang.
GG
One of my books tells of a priest in Beirut who pointed out that Jesus was offering to host the gathering that had already been planned in the Jerusalem house. Otherwise there would have been two Passovers eaten in the house, which wouldn't be right. That seems reasonable to me.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Lamb Chopped, my post was written while you were writing.
In my experience it is not unusual to find the minister in the kitchen washing dishes or helping with clearing up after a church lunch.
Yes, it's a great example of service in action. But, how could that be used in a liturgical context?
TARPing?
Posts: 49 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 2011
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Anyone care to offer an explanation why Pope Francis deliberately breaks the rules he has the power to change regarding the washing of Female Feet in the Maundy Thursday service, but does not change the rules themselves (and thereby allow other priests to do the same)? (The explanation offered by the Papal spokesman is that the Pope is free to change his own Liturgy, but that unless he changes the Rubrics - which he can also do at any time - all other Priests in the Roman Rite must still do that which the Pope himself does not do.)
Does this have anything to do with the complications of having a serving Pope and a Pontiff Emeritus? If Pope Francis went too far and started making large changes to Canon Law and Liturgical Rubrics (which, as long as he does not change doctrine, he is free to do at any time), would there be possible challenges to his legitimacy from supporters of Benedict XVI, even though the former pope is 100% retired and Francis is 100% the current Pope with full authority? Is there any chance that some of Francis' current rhetoric might be met with larger concrete changes to Canon Law than we have seen so far when (god forbid), Benedict XVI passes from this life, assuming that Francis outlives him?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
For RC neo-conservatives tradition is whatever the current pope says it is, so if the current pope washes the feet of women, for instance, contrary to the long held norms that's fine and if you dare disagree you're a fanatic, heretic, schismatic, sedevacantist or whatever (I had all those insults thrown at me back when I belonged to the RC traditionlist movement).
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
At our church we had quite a lot of people, women and men, having their feet washed and dried by the ministers. They all went and sat down at the front on a circle on seats.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
At our church we had quite a lot of people, women and men, having their feet washed and dried by the ministers. They all went and sat down at the front on a circle on seats.
Are, but were they Roman Catholics?
I don't know anything about Orthodox practice on this, but am under the impression that as far as the West is concerned, it is only in the RCC that there's an issue about who is allowed to wash and whether female feet can be washed.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
For RC neo-conservatives tradition is whatever the current pope says it is, so if the current pope washes the feet of women, for instance, contrary to the long held norms that's fine and if you dare disagree you're a fanatic, heretic, schismatic, sedevacantist or whatever (I had all those insults thrown at me back when I belonged to the RC traditionlist movement).
There's a certain brand of liturgical traditionalist that were all about that under Benedict. "The Pope has six candles and a crucifix on the altar. Why don't you? Do you think you know better than the Pope?" Upon Francis's arrival, many of those were quick to point out that fidelity to Rome doesn't mean an ultramontanist slavish copying of every Papal practice.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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