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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Liturgy at the National (Anglican) Shrine of Walsingham
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
1. EM - would it be the Strict Baptists who protest pilgrimages/the Shrine in general? I haven't been but my housemate has been going since a babe in arms and says there's always people shouting 'no Popery' and so on when she's there.
2. FWIW I feel that the DH issues may have kept away the less exclusive kind of priest - my housemate's dad, a very ordinary kind of man (working class background, no degree before training, parish is a working class area) feels unable to go now because of the Ordinariate and associated DH unpleasantness.
1. Yes it's the Strict Baptists and Reformed people who do that. There's a sprinkling of Anglicans too
2. Yes that's about it. The only DH that's acceptable are gay priests. 51% of the population are side lined even though it's one of them who is being venerated.
From what I know of Strict Baptists (admittedly not a huge amount but I have had some encounters in East Sussex and Bedfordshire), they would probably agree with the Ordinariate on the main DH! The ones I encountered insisted on headcoverings and dresses/skirts on women for church, but I don't know if this is applicable across the denomination. But I'm sure Walsingham being a den of Popish iniquity rather overshadows that for them.
I know the DH unpleasantness keeps me away - I deal with it enough in daily life, I certainly do not want it in the atmosphere of a place which is supposed to be holy.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
And could you point me to the place in the 39 articles were it says that ordination as such (and not merely the legal right to celebrate) can be revoked?
Sorry I wasn't clear in my post - I was referring here to the worship of saints and mary which is proscribed, not to ordination.
OK. But that means, of course, that Henry VIII would be condemned.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
So there's nothing that can lead to ordination being removed?
No, not on Anglo-Catholic belief, which is what is being discussed. And Anglo-Catholicism is, even if you do not like it, a legitimate tradition in the Church of England (CofE).
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I guess though it's much easier to remove a licence or permission to officiate. That's removal of ordination is all but name: a priest without pto is what?
A priest.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Besides which this is usually only done in extreme cases. Do the church really see what kind of laughing stock they make of themselves when child abusers and the like are just refused pto and don't have their ordination removed?
The Church cannot make a circular square either. On Anglo-Catholic belief, ordination is permanent. You cannot remove something which is permanent.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It's one problem of believing in ontological change at ordination (with which many of us don't concur).
Yes, but we are talking about Anglo-Catholic priests here, representing a legitimate tradition in the CofE.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
No jurisdiction but why do Bishops and others continue to give it credence by concelebrating there?
Maybe they do not agree with you, perhaps? Maybe they have great devotion to Mary? Maybe they like the ecumenical atmosphere? There could be many reasons.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
On the basis on your argument, the extreme position is that the shrine becomes a bolt hole for priests who are denied pto elsewhere. Who knows what dirty linen might well be piled up?
Maybe, but my point was that if, say, an Anglo-Catholic FiF priest were told that he had to stop celebrating Mass as Walsingham because the shrine’s devotion to Mary and/or its position on OOW, on the pain of loosing the legal right to celebrate in the CofE (or at least in the dioceses were the bishop in question has jurisdiction), do you really think he would care? It could, of course, lead to extremism. But so could anything.
The point is that Anglo Catholis have devotion to Mary, and they would probably not care that some bishop removed their right to celebrate in their diocese. I’m betting that they value their devotion higher than that. And the bishop doesn’t have the right to stop him from celebrating privately, or in ‘private’ settings like Walsingham. Since an Anglo-Catholic priest does not loose his ordination, he will be priest as long as he is alive.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Sadly, as is mentioned elsewhere above, there's little reference to Christ and most of the answered prayers thank Mary not Him. sad.
It could also be that you do not understand their devotion, and their devotional language.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
Since an Anglo-Catholic priest does not loose his ordination, he will be priest as long as he is alive.
Or she ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ 20. April 2014, 23:10: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Above, Exclamation Mark posts:
quote:
On the basis on your argument, the extreme position is that the shrine becomes a bolt hole for priests who are denied pto elsewhere. Who knows what dirty linen might well be piled up?
An unkind person might suggest that this is a remarkable mating of a dead horse with a red herring!
To my knowledge, clergy who have been denied permission to officiate have not been active at Walsingham, but perhaps I am not that well-informed. With extremely rare exceptions (I only know of one, and that was in the US), clergy who lose their permission are left in limbo.
Indeed, at the early morning mass at my current hangout in Ottawa, there were two clergy without permission to officiate seated in the congregation. Their situation is well-known, as is that of a clerical friend in Halifax, and flying under the radar is just simply impossible. I doubt if the Guardians of the shrine would countenance such folk and think it unfortunate that such extreme and theoretical possibilities be discussed in connexion with the Shrine.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Lose. "Lose". LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Tangent alert!
In what denomination is ordination not permanent?
On ordination as elders we were clearly instructed that teaching elders (ministers) and ruling elders (members of Session/Parish Council) were ordained for life.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
An unkind person might suggest that this is a remarkable mating of a dead horse with a red herring!
Red and dead then - should make the Tories and Republicans happy then.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Above, Exclamation Mark posts:
quote:
On the basis on your argument, the extreme position is that the shrine becomes a bolt hole for priests who are denied pto elsewhere. Who knows what dirty linen might well be piled up?
An unkind person might suggest that this is a remarkable mating of a dead horse with a red herring!
To my knowledge, clergy who have been denied permission to officiate have not been active at Walsingham, but perhaps I am not that well-informed. With extremely rare exceptions (I only know of one, and that was in the US), clergy who lose their permission are left in limbo.
Indeed, at the early morning mass at my current hangout in Ottawa, there were two clergy without permission to officiate seated in the congregation. Their situation is well-known, as is that of a clerical friend in Halifax, and flying under the radar is just simply impossible. I doubt if the Guardians of the shrine would countenance such folk and think it unfortunate that such extreme and theoretical possibilities be discussed in connexion with the Shrine.
It was a theoretical point based on the lack of accountability at Walsingham towards the CofE, as explained by posters above. I'm not saying it does happen but technically it might.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
The Anglican organisation to which our shipmate Emli belongs is a non-official one, and is able to conduct services on private property in Sydney without being bound by the usual rules. The clergy may wear chasubles, for example, and have not needed to give the undertaking required from other clergy. There are probably other groups flying under the radar throughout the Anglican world, and no-one would suggest that they did not have strict provisions in place to implement safe ministry practice.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It was a theoretical point based on the lack of accountability at Walsingham towards the CofE, as explained by posters above. I'm not saying it does happen but technically it might.
Alleged lack of accountability. There are all sorts of institutions that sit outside the CofE's "normal" parish structures - theological colleges, academic institutions, religious communities, hospitals and hospices. As far as I know, all CofE clergy in those places - and at the Shrine - have the Bishop's permission to officiate, or hold the Bishop's licence. (In fact, at the Shrine, the clergy regularly fill in at parish churches and elsewhere, therefore must at least have PTO.) I think you should be very careful in your allegations, especially when you use expressions like "dirty linen". Your remarks are becoming Hellish.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Tangent alert!
In what denomination is ordination not permanent?
On ordination as elders we were clearly instructed that teaching elders (ministers) and ruling elders (members of Session/Parish Council) were ordained for life.
GG
I suppose those denominations that don't believe in ordination so much as plain employment of ministers. Free evangelical churches tend to have this approach IME.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Okay... I think we are done here.
This thread really doesn't seem to be achieving anything except Dead Horse tangents and slightly unsavoury implications of impropriety. In fact, I don't think there has been any discussion of the worship practices associated with the Shrine for several days, despite my co-host's previous guidance.
If anyone is curious about what liturgies at Walsingham are like, their best course of action is probably to visit the place and see for themselves!
Thread closed.
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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