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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Conceived by the power of the Virgin Mary!?
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BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
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Posted
So, I noticed that when the Presiding Bishop was leading the renewal of Baptismal Vows at the Episcopal Church's (USA) youth event, she said "conceived by the power of the Virgin Mary." The text quickly flashes away, but if you pause it, you can see it there too.
I'm a supporter of the Presiding Bishop and loyal Episcopalian, but what in the world is that about? This seems wholly and utterly heretical. I even Googled the phrase "conceived by the power of the Virgin Mary," and it seems like that doesn't appear anywhere on Google. Has anybody heard of this being used? I don't think it's just a problem with the "script" either because she launches into it confidently, and everybody else repeats it too. I'm actually deeply, deeply troubled by this.
It's at about 1:05:30 in the below video:
EYE Closing Eucharist 2014
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
I think it was a transposition of the wording of the creed done by whoever did the PowerPoint slide and she read it and rolled with it. It appeared that she was reading off the projection. I am doubtful that it was part of any conspiracy to create heretics.
[ 14. July 2014, 20:02: Message edited by: Kyzyl ]
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I need a quote.
Posts: 668 | From: Wapasha's Prairie | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ahleal V
Shipmate
# 8404
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Posted
The alternative is that +Schiori has just proclaimed a new Marian dogma ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
x
AV
Posts: 499 | From: English Spires | Registered: Aug 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
As Kyzyl notes, this is the interrogative form of the creed from the Baptism service, and the producer of the powerpoint missed out "Holy Spirit
and born of the", which is certainly a keyboarding error rather than unorthodox theology.
As for what it says that the PB and the congregation just ploughed through it without thinking - well...
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Just a thought - and feel free to ignore me, y'all, as I'm pretty negative about using liturgy all the time - but do people think this apparent mistake would happen in most situations? If the words were copied or typed wrongly onto the slide, would most people (up the front and in the congregation) just read what was written without correcting or even noticing the mistake?
If so, I think that says some alarming things about what the routine use of liturgy does to our critical faculties...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
but do people think this apparent mistake would happen in most situations?
On a few occasions, our priest has been reading from the book, skipped a line, stopped, said "that's not right" and gone back and done it properly.
I will add that, IME, most people don't know the interrogative form of the creed by heart, so would read it, whereas at least at our shack, most people recite the Nicene creed without needing to resort to the book (so if it was the regular Nicene creed, the slide could skip to Swahili half way down, and most people would just keep on reciting.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Just a thought - and feel free to ignore me, y'all, as I'm pretty negative about using liturgy all the time - but do people think this apparent mistake would happen in most situations? If the words were copied or typed wrongly onto the slide, would most people (up the front and in the congregation) just read what was written without correcting or even noticing the mistake?
If so, I think that says some alarming things about what the routine use of liturgy does to our critical faculties...
Sorry SCK but that's nonsense. It would happen whenever something gets learnt by heart and is not some kind of Romish plot to turn people's brains to mush. Think how easily people can understand text even if it has many spelling errors - our brain overrides errors with the version we remember, and is a neurological feature everyone has regardless of their use of liturgy.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Okay, sorry I mentioned it! Just an idle thought, probably only reflecting my own bias against liturgy.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
The alternative is that +Schiori has just proclaimed a new Marian dogma
x
AV
I think that this is exactly what has happened. A valid adoption of the decisions of Vatican I by Anglicans would be to assume that papal infallibility devolves to primates of autonomous churches.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Whilst it is possible that this was deliberate change, I suspect that this is more "cock-up" than "conspiracy".
If it were "conspiracy" I am guessing that more would have been made of this. It seems mighty strange to make such a change to the Apostle's Creed without any reference to it. The phrase that they ended up with, "by the power of the Virgin Mary", is so clumsy that I seriously doubt it was intended. If an ultra-feminist was going to make such a change, I am guessing they would be far more deliberate about the wording.
My "cock-up" theory would be that
a) As already suggested, whoever created the powerpoint slides managed to cut out the missing phrase by accident. Shit like this happens.
b) The first that the PB knew about this was as the slide was displayed. At such moments, you have a second to decide what to do. Do you stop the whole thing to explain that this isn't right? Or do you just plough on regardless and hope that no-one notices? I've done the latter many MANY times! Stopping the service at that point is disruptive and it is far easier to just keep going. Also, as you only have a second to decide, by the time you've realised what is going on, the moment will probably have passed anyway.
Some may say "surely the service was proof-read first". Uh huh! Wanna know how many times I have come across typos in service bulletins that were supposedly proof-read? Unless you get in someone who hasn't seen the service at all before and get them to proof-read it, the chances of finding an error like this are not that high. The mind reads what it expects to read.
I'm sure people will be using this as yet another example of the heinous nature of the PB. Just the same sort of people who will make a joke about their own typos.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
sounds like a grammatical error . The alternative is non acceptable .
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
It could have been worse. It could have been:
Conceived by the power... OF GRAYSKULL!!
I'll get me coat... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
PS: Yes, of course, I'm sure it was an accident. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 15. July 2014, 03:16: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
These things happen. I once heard a priest begin an Ascension Day sermon with the words "May I speak to you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Risen and Ascended Jesus". And there have been plenty of occasions, I am sure, when, after supper, Jesus took the cup and broke it and said to his disciples...
I recently introduced the intercessions in the normal way: "In the power of the Spirit and in union with Christ, let us pray to the Father" only to be reminded that, it being Easter Sunday, the prayers were addressed to the Risen Christ.
This isn't a new issue. Back in the day the Pope wrote to St. Boniface of Crediton pointing out that it wasn't necessary to rebaptise every child where the priest had inadvertently got the Baptismal formula wrong. It was enough to ensure that it didn't happen again.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Our most recent Baptist hymnbook omitted an entire line of the Apostles' Creed by mistake! It was corrected in the reprint.
I once heard a Bible College student, "pounced upon" to say Grace at a meal, automatically begin, "May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ ...".
These things happen.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
....in spite of all we do to make it difficult for Her.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
I am in no position to throw stones. Many times, when saying the Lord's Prayer, I have been known to say: "Give us this day our daily bread and lead us not into temptation, but deliver..." It usually isn't until after I have said Amen that I realize that I overlooked the whole trespassers bit.
Fortunately, this usually happens when I am reciting the prayer to myself and not when leading others. I am sure if it happened when I was leading others I would get a classic deer-in-headlights look on my face.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
I would normally be of the opinion that this was a simple power-point screw-up, no more and no less. In fact, one of the strongest arguments against projecting the liturgy/hymns lyrics is that this sort of mistake seems to happen at least once in every service!
However, this is ++KJS we are talking about, and after the sermon she preached in Curacao, I wouldn't put any heresy, especially ones involving feminism, past her. So, while I am willing to consider this a mistake, I am suspicious of the possibility that ++KJS is trying to deny the Virgin Birth or the Divinity of Christ. Mostly I am just looking forward to her retirement.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
I would normally be of the opinion that this was a simple power-point screw-up, no more and no less. In fact, one of the strongest arguments against projecting the liturgy/hymns lyrics is that this sort of mistake seems to happen at least once in every service!
However, this is ++KJS we are talking about, and after the sermon she preached in Curacao, I wouldn't put any heresy, especially ones involving feminism, past her. So, while I am willing to consider this a mistake, I am suspicious of the possibility that ++KJS is trying to deny the Virgin Birth or the Divinity of Christ. Mostly I am just looking forward to her retirement.
I'm no fan of the PB either, but I'm pretty sure it was just a typing error. Now as to whether or not she even noticed, that's another question. She is not the sharpest or most sophisticated theologian...
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
As if "conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit" weren't weasel words enough. Weren't we all conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit?
On Saturday, July 26, the PB will grace the "40th Anniversary of Women’s Ordination Celebration" at the original scene of the crime, The Church of the Advocate in Philadelphia. This is one of the diocese's more magnificent fanes. I'm not sure how prosperous it was in the 1970s, but nowadays the neighborhood certainly is not. Parking is always hard to find, we are warned. Although I am mellowing somewhat on the issue of OOW, whether I'll attend will probably depend on whether I take time beforehand to fortify myself with rereading some Stringfellow-- particularly his love of circuses.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
As if "conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit" weren't weasel words enough. Weren't we all conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit?
On Saturday, July 26, the PB will grace the "40th Anniversary of Women’s Ordination Celebration" at the original scene of the crime, The Church of the Advocate in Philadelphia. This is one of the diocese's more magnificent fanes. I'm not sure how prosperous it was in the 1970s, but nowadays the neighborhood certainly is not. Parking is always hard to find, we are warned. Although I am mellowing somewhat on the issue of OOW, whether I'll attend will probably depend on whether I take time beforehand to fortify myself with rereading some Stringfellow-- particularly his love of circuses.
That should prepare you for the bendy poles, at any rate.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
To make things perfectly clear and avoid this going into DH territory, I have no problem with the fact that my Presiding Bishop is a women. My objection is to the fact that she preaches and teaches heresy- I am no fan of Spong for the same reason. Thus I tend to be suspicious when she makes a "mistake" in the creed that tends to lead to a denial of the Virgin Birth.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
As if "conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit" weren't weasel words enough. Weren't we all conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit?
Not that I've ever heard. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Certainly not in the same way that Jesus as God Incarnate was. I know language is inadequate to fully describe things, but I've never been confused by this or found it weaselly in the slightest.
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
To make things perfectly clear and avoid this going into DH territory, I have no problem with the fact that my Presiding Bishop is a women. My objection is to the fact that she preaches and teaches heresy- I am no fan of Spong for the same reason.
I agree on all counts (if the link describes her sermon correctly... yikes!) but I'm not suspicious in this case.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I am in no position to throw stones. Many times, when saying the Lord's Prayer, I have been known to say: "Give us this day our daily bread and lead us not into temptation, but deliver..." It usually isn't until after I have said Amen that I realize that I overlooked the whole trespassers bit.
I will never say the Lord's Prayer in public without having it written down in front of me ... and, even then, I messed up recently!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
My "cock-up" theory would be that
a) As already suggested, whoever created the powerpoint slides managed to cut out the missing phrase by accident. Shit like this happens.
Right. This happens. A lot. Like it does in the bible.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
As if "conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit" weren't weasel words enough. Weren't we all conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit?
Not that I've ever heard. Certainly not in the same way that Jesus as God Incarnate was. I know language is inadequate to fully describe things,
True, and sometimes the more language, the more inadequacy. The old wording was "conceived by the Holy Ghost." Nice, succinct, and by the way distinctive. Why add three more words, other than to placate those who would rather not claim that Jesus was any different from the rest of us?
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
As if "conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit" weren't weasel words enough. Weren't we all conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit?
Not that I've ever heard. Certainly not in the same way that Jesus as God Incarnate was. I know language is inadequate to fully describe things,
True, and sometimes the more language, the more inadequacy. The old wording was "conceived by the Holy Ghost." Nice, succinct, and by the way distinctive. Why add three more words, other than to placate those who would rather not claim that Jesus was any different from the rest of us?
It's also a departure from the common texts produced by the ICET, which puts us at odds with the rest of the Communion and most of the other English speaking churches.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I will never say the Lord's Prayer in public without having it written down in front of me ... and, even then, I messed up recently!
I'm so glad that I am not the only one!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
It's also a departure from the common texts produced by the ICET, which puts us at odds with the rest of the Communion and most of the other English speaking churches.
I'm just mildly surprised that you're not joined by the C of E, who seemed to take great delight in buggering about with the ICET common texts, on the grounds that "we know best" (Lord's Prayer, anyone??). ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
When it comes to Lords Prayer my late mother had to fight using the presbyterian "debts" vs CofE "trespasses".
I think having the wording in front of you should keep one from error . Though I have known priests that omit whole sections of prayers. Leaving me feeling like I could have done better, maybe .
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
PaulBC: When it comes to Lords Prayer my late mother had to fight using the presbyterian "debts" vs CofE "trespasses".
When I'm in a Catholic church, I always have to be careful to leave out the last bit.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I will never say the Lord's Prayer in public without having it written down in front of me ... and, even then, I messed up recently!
I'm so glad that I am not the only one!
That could be life-threatening for a woman in 17th-century Massachusetts. If she did not say the Lord's Prayer correctly when put on the spot, it was regarded as proof that she was a witch.
This reminds me of the organist I know who said he never wanted to play even the Old 100th Doxology without the notes in front of him. I've been known to mess that up otherwise, too.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
It's also a departure from the common texts produced by the ICET, which puts us at odds with the rest of the Communion and most of the other English speaking churches.
I'm just mildly surprised that you're not joined by the C of E, who seemed to take great delight in buggering about with the ICET common texts, on the grounds that "we know best" (Lord's Prayer, anyone??).
To be entirely fair, the ICET Lord's Prayer is the one ICET text that hardly anyone ever uses, at least in my part of the United States. It's used only by clergy who are self-consciously trying to be ultra-modern. Even Evangelical Lutheran Worship felt compelled to print the traditional text of the Lord's Prayer alongside the ICET text, and for Lutherans "traditional language" means "in German"!
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Am I the only one who thinks "cock-up" is an unfortunate phrase to use when discussing the virgin conception of Christ?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Just a thought - and feel free to ignore me, y'all, as I'm pretty negative about using liturgy all the time - but do people think this apparent mistake would happen in most situations? If the words were copied or typed wrongly onto the slide, would most people (up the front and in the congregation) just read what was written without correcting or even noticing the mistake?
If so, I think that says some alarming things about what the routine use of liturgy does to our critical faculties...
I'd not so much question about critical faculties in the same way, I'd ask the question about people not noticing an error - especially with one of the key texts.
As said some will have it by heart and won't worry about the written part at all. So they may not see the error. I've done this when leading, put in the missing words or lines.
However I have to ask the question, that in a church that uses liturgy often, shouldn't such errors be spotted?
Posts: 103 | From: somewhere over the border | Registered: Apr 2010
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Am I the only one who thinks "cock-up" is an unfortunate phrase to use when discussing the virgin conception of Christ?
No, you're not.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Because of the long-running controversy about the inaccuracy of the former ICEL English translation of the creed, which was then (and is still) used by ICET, the RCC reverted to "...and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man." This matches the Latin original, which is Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
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Posted
"Conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit" always bothers me too. It's a bad translation because it adds an idea that was not present in the text approved by the Council of Constantinople (I know the same argument can be made of any text including the filioque, but I can't recall at the moment if the filioque is a Dead Horse). For the same reason I am bothered with the removal of "men" from "for us men and for our salvation," which serves the purpose of clarifying the antecedent of "us" in a way that repudiates any idea of limited atonement.
Posts: 49 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 2011
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JeffTL:
For the same reason I am bothered with the removal of "men" from "for us men and for our salvation," which serves the purpose of clarifying the antecedent of "us" in a way that repudiates any idea of limited atonement.
For rather a lot of English speakers, that word conveys rather than repudiates limited atonement! One of many reasons why I normally use the Apostles' Creed when a Creed is prescribed.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
As if "conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit" weren't weasel words enough. Weren't we all conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit?
I've tended to assume it had something to do with providing a contrast with the common declaration of the emperor's divinity?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by JeffTL:
For the same reason I am bothered with the removal of "men" from "for us men and for our salvation," which serves the purpose of clarifying the antecedent of "us" in a way that repudiates any idea of limited atonement.
For rather a lot of English speakers, that word conveys rather than repudiates limited atonement! One of many reasons why I normally use the Apostles' Creed when a Creed is prescribed.
Maybe something like "for all humanity and for our salvation" would have been better then. Actually, it never would have occurred to me to question whether "us and . . ." suggested limited atonement, but then I'm used to that wording.
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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
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JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
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Posted
"For us people and for our salvation" or "for us humans and for our salvation" would be the best translation if people truly cannot take "men" as homines rather than vires anymore.
I've never heard anyone question whether Jesus died for women. I have, however, heard people question whether the resultant salvation is available for all or only for the elect.
Posts: 49 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 2011
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JeffTL:
"For us people and for our salvation" or "for us humans and for our salvation" would be the best translation if people truly cannot take "men" as homines rather than vires anymore.
I've never heard anyone question whether Jesus died for women. I have, however, heard people question whether the resultant salvation is available for all or only for the elect.
I agree with you about the best translation and the danger of 'us' being taken as limited. However, I would challenge your tone over 'if people truly cannot taken "men" as homines rather than vires anymore'. Intellectually, I know that 'men' here is translating αθρoπoυς and is all humanity, but that's not the emotional effect. The problem with generic men is that it is tied up with male as default and women as incomplete and strange. See also the use of 'He' as the neutral pronoun for God, who is beyond gender.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JeffTL:
"For us people and for our salvation" or "for us humans and for our salvation" would be the best translation if people truly cannot take "men" as homines rather than vires anymore.
*snip*
English use is changing and the absence of a gender-neutral plural, which many languages have, leaves us with few euphonic choices. I must admit that there is a generational shift in this, and that the younger age cohorts notice it more keenly. As a former classicist, I would translate it as "For all and for our salvation," although a SF-reading transitional deacon of my acquaintance wants to use "For we sentient beings and for the salvation of all creatures." I pointed out that not all parishioners or clergy fell under the former category.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
a SF-reading transitional deacon of my acquaintance wants to use "For we sentient beings and for the salvation of all creatures." I pointed out that not all parishioners or clergy fell under the former category.
For we? Really?
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
a SF-reading transitional deacon of my acquaintance wants to use "For we sentient beings and for the salvation of all creatures." I pointed out that not all parishioners or clergy fell under the former category.
For we? Really?
Not a graduate of one of our better universities.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Intellectually, I know that 'men' here is translating αθρoπoυς and is all humanity, but that's not the emotional effect.
Does "mankind" have the same overtones for you?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I do not know about Carys but I do know for some it does. I have seen too many "humankind"s for me to not be aware of it. I just wonder what is wrong with "humanity" apart from making scanning even harder.
Jengie
[ 18. July 2014, 19:28: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I just wonder what is wrong with "humanity" apart from making scanning even harder.
As you say, the scansion is pretty horrible.
"For all people and our salvation" isn't too bad.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
although a SF-reading transitional deacon of my acquaintance wants to use "For we sentient beings and for the salvation of all creatures." I pointed out that not all parishioners or clergy fell under the former category.
Not to mention that it's making startling suppositions about precisely how the Incarnation affects everything apart from humanity, from angels to animals to aliens to yokai to any number of things we know little or nothing about. Ick. We know some details of our story as humans, but this is taking a step too far.
(Not to mention that PLANTS ARE SENTIENT--humans are sapient, which is not the same thing.)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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