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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Flags
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
... of course, when the natural order is followed during the 6 Nations then sometimes angels drape the Baner Cymru (Welsh flag) over the gallery near the organ loft ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Of course the One True Welsh flag is the Cross of St.David.......
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Ah, didn't know that about the Arms- thanks. I believe the 'default' flag for a CofE church to fly is the cross of St George with the diocesan arms in the canton, isn't it? Here in Wales we fly, if anything, the CinW flag. But not really seen insde the Church. I am trying to think whether or not I have ever seen a Red Dragon in a Welsh church or chapel. I don't think I have but I wouldn't swear to it. It would not be usual, anyway.
I remember seeing that flag during the Falklands War
It has a vague similarity to the Argentinian flag. I don't *think* anyone was making a point then but one never knows does one?
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Given the chance, I'd fly the red flag from the building
Fr. Conrad Noel had a red flag in the sanctuary at Thaxted.
And an Irish Tricolour somewhere in the Church, which c1920 was certainly making a statement.
[ 09. September 2014, 19:51: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I do (I think) get the point of US churches having the flag there, but then I'm reasonably comfortable with civic religion. Wouldn't work here because the flag doesn't have anything like the cultural significance that it seems to have in the States- all that pledging allegiance stuff seems at best tweely odd and at worst rather sinister to us. But different strokes, and all that.
It seems at best odd and at worst rather sinister to some of us here in the US, as well. I think we have a particular danger of nation-olatry here in the US--and some religious groups actually make claims of the US being specially blessed by God above other nations. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, there's a whole other thread that could be started on that- goes back to the Puritan city-on-the-hill thing, I suppose. Mind you, there were and to my surprise still are people who had a version of it here- the British Israelites.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I see, getting us closer to the OP again, that they offer a lapel badge of crossed Union Jack and Stars and Stripes with the motto 'We are Israel'.
Patently barking.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
We don't have any flags.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
I am surprised this has yet to be mentioned, but a great deal of the flags being flown from mainstream denomination churches in the U.S. are actually gay pride flags, meant to denote that they are affirming parishes.
Whether such issue-oriented flags should be treated differently, may be a matter for debate.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The Union Flag has had an awkward recent history of being used by racist groups, so it's hardly surprising that British churches don't display it often. But the CofE would be more likely to have it out than other churches, I would have thought; the CofE routinely prays for the Queen, after all.
The Nonconformists have had a bumpy relationship with the British state, so them making a fuss of the Union Flag would look rather odd - it would come across as obsequiousness above all.
In terms of other flags, I've seen Boys' Brigade banners in Methodist churches. And lots of churches are keen to highlight their internationalist credentials, so sometimes you see little displays and posters showing various flags of the world, usually explaining church connections.
[ 05. October 2014, 22:25: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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fullgospel
Shipmate
# 18233
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Posted
I find permanent flags in church rather strange; and somehow don't sit well with me.
Why ? Seem sort of out of place somehow.
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on the one hand - self doubt
on the other, the universe that looks through your eyes - your eyes
Posts: 364 | From: Rubovia | Registered: Sep 2014
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
My parish has no flags, for which I am thankful.
Although I do have my Fundie tendencies, the Christian flag creeps me out. I'm not sure why, but it does.
But I think there are times and places for flags in church. For example, a chapel dedicated to war dead, or (in England) a royal peculiar. However, even in those settings I cannot recall seeing a flag near the altar.
But those waving around flags, banners, or streamers while committing liturgical dance during a service of the Lord's worship should be shunned and excommunicated. No exceptions.
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
P.S. Has anyone ever come across "the Christian flag" being displayed in church?
An evangelical church in my area had this flying outside BELOW the U.S. flag. I actually phoned them and argued that this bespoke an inversion of where our loyalty as Christians should actually lie--to God's Kingdom above all--but got nowhere. The person I talked to (I don't remember whether it was the pastor or someone else) simply cited the U.S. Flag Code (this is actually part of federal law), which states that if the U.S. flag is with another flag on the same pole the U.S. flag goes on top. Well, in that case don't fly it at all, I say!
[ 06. October 2014, 02:48: Message edited by: Al Eluia ]
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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But the CofE would be more likely to have it out than other churches, I would have thought; the CofE routinely prays for the Queen, after all. .
As do we at Choral Evensong (1662 Prayerbook) and on the occasions when we do the Litany.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The Union Flag has had an awkward recent history of being used by racist groups, so it's hardly surprising that British churches don't display it often. But the CofE would be more likely to have it out than other churches, I would have thought; the CofE routinely prays for the Queen, after all.
I may be misremembering, but I thought the cross of St. George, and not the union flag, was the appropriate flag for CofE churches to fly (if any).
EDIT: it seems this is the relevant guidance:
http://www.churchcare.co.uk/churches/guidance-advice/looking-after-your-church/flags
[ 06. October 2014, 06:43: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
... those waving around flags, banners, or streamers while committing liturgical dance during a service of the Lord's worship should be shunned and excommunicated. No exceptions.
Bugger
I ventured to that picture, and I saw no liturgical dance being committed.
However, there was a long streaming banner. That cathedral should be watched closely. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
The Dean is obviously a dodgy type ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
The Salvation Army has lots of flags
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But the CofE would be more likely to have it out than other churches, I would have thought; the CofE routinely prays for the Queen, after all. .
As do we at Choral Evensong (1662 Prayerbook) and on the occasions when we do the Litany.
A retired clerical acquaintance who has filled chaplaincies in the Mediterranean assures me that his congregations routinely prayed (depending on their location) for the King of Spain or the President of the French Republic. And in Oman, the mixed Anglican congregation prays for Qaboos our Sultan. *end ot tangent*
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Just thought I'd say I was in London this weekend, and saw a church that had the Union Flag flying in the open air.
It was a Congregational church. It had notices up outside declaring that the UK was in serious spiritual trouble, so the flag clearly wasn't there as a sign of the church's slavish admiration of the state....
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
Here in New York, I noticed many more churches displayed the US flag inside their sanctuaries after 9/11. It was not an endorsement of the government or military and more a sign of solidarity and perseverance in the face of such a tragedy. The flags have stayed, for the most part.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
Gorgeous in gold. Sounds like a novel? Might make a change from Revelation, Zappa..
I've attended a few St John functions here in Sydney and lusted after those cloaks worn here I think by National Council members. Should check with my chaplain friend. Superfine wool and metre upon metre gathered at neck.
I looked through all the pics.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
Here in New York, I noticed many more churches displayed the US flag inside their sanctuaries after 9/11. It was not an endorsement of the government or military and more a sign of solidarity and perseverance in the face of such a tragedy. The flags have stayed, for the most part.
Sadly, we seem to have a flag-mania elsewhere for what I am pretty sure are not the best reasons. I don't go to churches like those.
(It's freaking everywhere, car sale lots, just everywhere, and seems to have a scary political tinge in some cases.)
[ 20. October 2014, 17:44: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
Ours have been moving, every so slightly each month, towards the side door of the chancel. Eventually they will be in the hallway and everyone will say they've always been in the hallway.
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I need a quote.
Posts: 668 | From: Wapasha's Prairie | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Projecting a flag, rather than having a real one. That's just weird.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
This may sound Communist. But I got uncomfortable with all the flags in church post-9-11.
Even in Californicate, I visited a large church that projected a HUGE flag filling the entire wall behind the pulpit.
Sorry, but I go to church to worship God, not 'Merica.
Agreed on all counts. Apart from it sounding Communist; if anything it's the reverse, as many Communist countries tried to put the state in the place of God, so being troubled at that kind of political idolatry is quite non-Communist, or at least non-Stalinist.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Projecting a flag, rather than having a real one. That's just weird.
I would bet my next paycheck that that church projects their songs instead of having songbooks or projects Bible verses instead of having people use the pew Bibles. This seems to be the next logical step.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I love the projected song verses. My eyesight is diminished, and those things are =visible= in the way that a printed page is not. And I trust that someone actually reads the Scripture lesson aloud? I do not care if it is projected if somebody reads it, but I could imagine a deaf person really being grateful.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
Our collection of nation flags disappeared a few weeks ago and instead we have a row of colourful clocks representing our mission partners, each set to the appropriate time. I rather like them, they are in rainbow colours and are set above the main door and are not obtrusive.
Mind you, we also have projected songs and verses ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 21. October 2014, 20:56: Message edited by: Heavenly Anarchist ]
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Projecting a flag, rather than having a real one. That's just weird.
I would bet my next paycheck that that church projects their songs instead of having songbooks or projects Bible verses instead of having people use the pew Bibles. This seems to be the next logical step.
What is this thing you call pew bible?
I know a ocuple of places that have t hem, but the vast majority of Anglican (in more than one country) and United CHurch of Canada (in this) churches wouldn't dream of having copies of scripture in the pews. I've never experienced a sermon in which listeners were asked to look up references -- because the truly faithful are going to bring their own and the translations and pages will differ. ANd ANglicans are expected (whether wisely or not) to listen to Scripture as it is read.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
What is this thing you call pew bible?
I know a ocuple of places that have them, but the vast majority of Anglican (in more than one country) and United Church of Canada (in this) churches wouldn't dream of having copies of scripture in the pews. I've never experienced a sermon in which listeners were asked to look up references -- ...
John things may be different in Canada, but pew Bibles are fairly widespread in the CofE, particularly, though by no means invariably, in churches that regard themselves to any extent as being evangelical.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
My own experience of evangelical churches, C of E and otherwise, is that the congregation bring their own bibles. These days that may well be on a kindle or tablet. St Helen's did expect us to look up verses but we were also expected to bring our own bible.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
What is this thing you call pew bible?
I know a ocuple of places that have t hem, but the vast majority of Anglican (in more than one country) and United CHurch of Canada (in this) churches wouldn't dream of having copies of scripture in the pews. I've never experienced a sermon in which listeners were asked to look up references -- because the truly faithful are going to bring their own and the translations and pages will differ. ANd ANglicans are expected (whether wisely or not) to listen to Scripture as it is read.
Pew Bibles seem to be reasonably common in Episcopal churches in these parts, though perhaps they are more common in Presbyterian and United Methodist churches. I also know of Episcopal churches that include the full readings on bulletin inserts each week.
Baptists, in my experience, would be expected to bring their own Bibles to church.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Baptists, in my experience, would be expected to bring their own Bibles to church.
Yes, and they also have pew Bibles.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Pew Bibles seem to be reasonably common in Episcopal churches…. I also know of Episcopal churches that include the full readings on bulletin inserts each week.
My anglocatholic shack does both, but then the bibles are abridged, containing only the Old and the New testaments, leaving out the deuterocanon. We manage to soldier on somehow.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The black-majority Pentecostal churches in the UK expect worshippers to bring their own Bibles - usually the KJV, which is probably the cheapest and easiest version to buy.
The reason for this expectation seems to be that attenders will usually have to follow the Bible passages closely, and even make notes. There may be an all-age Sunday School which will require that attenders are ready to 'study'.
In mainstream churches, by contrast, the congregational use of Bibles during worship is mostly optional. There's also no guarantee that the individual actually owns a copy of the modern translation that the church uses, so it makes sense for the church to provide them.
[ 24. October 2014, 01:44: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
I think the note taking bit is important to this, in churches where people take notes during the sermon (common in some evangelical circles like the NFI I attend and St H I mentioned earlier) the congregation generally bring the bible they feel comfortable with and will often annotate it. I use an ESV on a Kindle, which may or may not be the version the preacher is using. But his version is usually projected on the screen, as are notes from the sermon.
Another factor is that these churches often don't have pews and modern chairs seldom have storage for books. We meet in a warehouse with folding chairs.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Surely the whole point of "readings" within the service is that the word is read to people and they HEAR it, not that everyone is bent over their own Bible?
As for making notes (presumably during a sermon?) - surely while you are making your notes the preacher will have moved on to something else?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
Some people just like to follow along with readings. I don't, but I know (for instance) my wife does.
And taking notes during a sermon isn't any different from taking notes in class; we've all been there. Again, it is not something that I ever did, and I wouldn't expect that anyone take notes when I preach, but some people do like it. My mother-in-law would always leave church with veritable transcript of what the preacher had said.
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Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, I make notes occasionally- not often- and I did on at least one occasion make notes in English from a Welsh sermon for the benefit of non-Welsh speaking guests. Kept up perfectly well.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I listen best with a pen in my hand. It's in my job description.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
We have a Union flag (I think it's an historic one) on the pillar behind the lectern; there's a Canadian flag and a Newfoundland flag one either side of the sanctuary, just inside the communion rail.
We also have a couple of historic lion-rampant flags (very historic - they're falling to bits) high on the wall of the south transept.
On Commonwealth Sunday we have a wonderful display down the two aisles of flags of all the Commonwealth countries.
Some Anglican churches here display the flag of the Anglican Church of Canada.
IMHO there is no place in church for an over-head projector. Ever. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Surely the whole point of "readings" within the service is that the word is read to people and they HEAR it, not that everyone is bent over their own Bible?
Well, I'd posit that originally the point of readings within the service was that the synagogue/church was the only places the Scriptures could be found and therefore the only place they could be read. That, and that few were able to read them. "Hearing" was pretty much the only way for the majority of people to be exposed to scripture.
But as Jon suggests, some people hear and and comprehend better if they read along. For me, doing so is a distraction that prevents me from really hearing. Ditto notetaking—I have a hard time listening and taking notes at the same time. But for others, it helps them listen. Nothing right or wrong either way.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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