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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Nine Lessons and Carols
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Crap spouted by Prester John:
quote:
Crap spouted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Crap spouted by Prester John:
quote:
Crap spouted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How big an event is New Year itself in the US? There may be some cultural differences.
It is one of the few days that almost everyone has off of work. Most office workers go home early the day before if they don't already have New Year's Eve off as well.
* was thinking more in terms of whether people tend to be away visiting relatives and holding parties as they do in the UK
Oh. Yeah it is the same here.
Plus, there's football all day long on TV. Many of the great University conference championship games are on NYD, so you'll see many gatherings of family and/or friends sitting around watching the games and eating and drinking.
eta: And while * find quite charming the picture of folks dressed up for NYE parties attending a Lessons and Carols beforehand, around here people would say they are "too busy getting ready" for the evening festivities to attend a church service.
[ 19. September 2014, 14:38: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Crap spouted by Mamacita:
Plus, there's football all day long on TV. Many of the great University conference championship games are on NYD, so you'll see many gatherings of family and/or friends sitting around watching the games and eating and drinking.
eta: And while * find quite charming the picture of folks dressed up for NYE parties attending a Lessons and Carols beforehand, around here people would say they are "too busy getting ready" for the evening festivities to attend a church service.
Oops. Forgot about college ball. My alma mater sucks so * don't really follow it. Football, America's true religion.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
It's a change seen in my lifetime. Right up till * had fin***ed my first degree, church carol services were just after Christmas. (School ones etc. were before right enough). People take down their decorations round here on twelfth night, if they think about it at all, but maybe there's some geographic variation there.
The real advantage of doing an Advent carol service (yes * know it's already been suggested) is that it is easier to get through to people what it is all about. Why does we leave in silence? What exactly are we looking forward to? etc. Certainly our experience over the years is that congregations for this one have built year-on-year. Though if you stuff it full of Christmas stuff, nobody will pick that up.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Crap spouted by dj_ordinaire:
Is the situation outlined ideal? No.
Is it better for people to go to a Christmas service at this time than not at all? Yes.
Of such things are compromises made, unfortunately! Even in Ecclesiantics, there is a time when liturgical purity has to be lain aside for the sake of the greater good.
Or simply the logistics of the thing. Especially if they might be using a pickup orchestra, extra tech resources...
Christmas services take one almighty fuckload of resource to be pulled off slickly.
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Crap spouted by Alex Cockell:
Or simply the logistics of the thing. Especially if they might be using a pickup orchestra, extra tech resources...
Christmas services take one almighty fuckload of resource to be pulled off slickly.
No they don't. All you need is an organ, a choir and a pile of hymn books.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
It's not in the Book of Common Order, and there aren't that many Christmas carols in the hymn book.
Thread Closed
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
More Bunny Fluff than * care to see. According to the principle of Double Predestination, this thread is going to....
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
... Ecclesiantics.
Cheers
Ariel
Heaven Host
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.
You just don't fit with the new order. My objections to Christmas Carols are terribly repetitive, so perhaps you can go cheer up Louise.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
The perennial debates around "Christmas music in Advent" definitely belong here. I don't know why it hasn't been consigned thus before.
And why does Louise need cheering up?
[ 20. September 2014, 18:14: Message edited by: Leaf ]
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
So apart from lining up on whether or not Christmas carols could or should be sung in Advent, is there any advice for bib?
It seems to me the problem is very much not about Christmas carols in Advent. Things to consider:
-- the minister is in retirement mode which perhaps doesn't contribute to the smooth functioning of the parish. Is there a soon--ish date by when he's going to retire? Perhaps best to just leave things be until that happens. If there isn't such a date, then that's a problem, more than scheduling of specific services.
-- the minister is delegating the scheduling of services to someone else. The someone else can hardly be blamed for pleasing themselves when the minister has given that permission.
-- if some people in the choir are unhappy, then, unless bib is also in the choir, the choir members should be left to sort out their own way of dealing with the issue.
-- if you raise the issue to the parish council, it's useful to sound someone out on this issue verbally first to find out what approach might be likely to fly with the council as a whole. I suspect "people are used to this happening on Christmas Eve and have shown they won't come so early in November, so this is a complete waste of a service and evangelism on Nov. 30" will fly better than "liturgical calendar, sinful to give in to the world, the sky is falling in."
-- what has changed this year that caused the schedule change? Has the music director been unhappy with the schedule for years, and the timing of preparation for it -- so that when the minister goes into retirement mode and gives the music director his head, the music director snatches at what he's always wanted as a solution? Or has the music director's schedule and obligations changed this year, which makes the previous schedule problematic? In either case, this is an issue between the music director and whoever is in charge of managing and relations with the music director. If that's the minister who's in retirement mode, then you're back to the real problem: that the minister is in retirement mode.
If the service is going to go ahead anyway, then I think the best course of action is to be an eirenic rather than fulminating presence about it. Choir members who object to the timing are presumably free to discover that they have some other obligation on Nov. 30 that will prevent them singing on that date. The most practical thing to do is to get the word out early about the schedule change, and also to have someone present at the church at the previously normal time on Christmas Eve, to let people who haven't got the word know what is going on when they arrive to find no service.
I'm still puzzled by the lack of censure for the minister on this thread. People were quick to say that this was a travesty, that the music minister should not be in charge of the scheduling, and they would never permit this to happen in their parish. But barely a peep of criticism once we found out that it's the minister who has abdicated his responsibilities and is permitting this scheduling to take place. "Go talk to the music director" is not the reply of someone who is taking any responsibility for the scheduling of services.
[ 22. September 2014, 01:50: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
As I am a member of the choir, I raised the matter at a choir practice to try and open discussion. However, as usual, most people sat on their hands rather than speak publicly even though I know they are unhappy. The music director was quite forthright and stated that December was far too busy for him and most other people to be bothered with carols, so he thought it was better to get it 'out of the way' as early as possible!! I also attempted to speak to the minister, but he just told me that he didn't wish to discuss it and that I should speak to the music director. I am frustrated beyond belief and would dearly love to 'take my bat and ball and go home', but that would be childish. I don't know what else to do.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Ah, you're a member of the choir! That had been quite unclear to me.
One thing to think through: what is the worst thing that could happen if the service goes ahead on Nov. 30? Air all your catastrophic fears. Write them down. Identify concretely and specifically. Sit with them for awhile. Write them here if you like. Then think about: OK, assuming all that happens, what will I do?
How are normal relations between the choir and the music director?
Something else which is an issue beyond Christmas carols in Advent is that the decision was made without consulting with the choir, to see who would be available. A choir is usually a volunteer group and usually wise music directors I would think understand that part of their job is to lead by persuasion rather than diktat. Leaving Nov. 30 completely out of it, how can the choir persuade the music director and minister to check with them for availability before scheduling large services at other than their usual times?
Supposing the music director, for whatever reason, can't rehearse and play for a lessons and carols service on any other date than Nov. 30: would you rather see the Nov. 30 service happen, or not happen? And if you would prefer "not happen", what would you like to see happen instead of a Nov. 30 service (bearing in mind that for this hypothetical the music director won't be part of a service on a different date)? None of that may be in your sphere of influence, but it will help clarify the issues for you around this.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I suppose you could absent yourself from this particular service, due to personal reasons / religious differences, but attend all the services you do feel happy with. Other people in the choir may not be too happy but may have chosen not to make a big thing of it for their own personal reasons. There is no need for everyone to act in the same way.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
As stated above, the real problem seems to lie with the minister here, who appears simply to have given up taking any responsibility. I'd say again, refer it up the line to the Rural Dean / Archdeacon or equivalent.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Albertus, what do you think the Rural Dean could do?
I think it is likely that this is a fait accompli. In my experience in the US Episcopal church, the next level up prefers to direct things back to be worked out within the particular church, and would be unlikely to overturn a decision of the minister and unlikely to step in to take over the managing of the relationship between the minister and the music director.
This church has survived at least one year with a low-attendance special service in early-mid Advent ISTM it will probably survive this year too.
The posters in Ecclesiantics are a non-representative group, in my experience, so it may well be that the Rural Dean's reaction is more like Baptist Trainfan's than like that of other posters who would never permit it.
I doubt the Rural Dean has the power to force the music director to lead a service at a time he doesn't want to: that's a matter between the music director and those specifically in charge of overseeing his contract, and, beyond the contract, seeing the music director's side of things also. And that probably has to be a longer-term clarification, and a personnel issue about work conditions, involving people with authority who care to take it on. It can't be done if the minister doesn't think it's worth it, and it can't be done directly by regular parishioners and choristers like bib who don't like the decisions being taken, because they don't have the authority for those types of negotiations.
[ 22. September 2014, 16:20: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Also, looking at it another way, has the minister abdicated responsibility? He's decided that, considering the various constituencies in the church, of which the music director is one, that he's content for the service to be on Nov. 30. If the Rural Dean says "you should take more responsibility for the scheduling of services" and the minister says "I think Nov. 30 is an acceptable date, all things considered," what then? Can the Rural Dean dictate to the minister when to schedule services, especially extra services? The Rural Dean might have a chat with the minister about "some people seem to be unhappy about this" and the minister will say "yes I know, there are always differing visions and desires in a church."
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
My comment was not about the specific issue of the scheduling of services: more the degree of (non-) responsibility for the management of the church/parish that the minister seems to be showing. As you yourself said upthread:
quote:
I'm still puzzled by the lack of censure for the minister on this thread. People were quick to say that this was a travesty, that the music minister should not be in charge of the scheduling, and they would never permit this to happen in their parish. But barely a peep of criticism once we found out that it's the minister who has abdicated his responsibilities and is permitting this scheduling to take place. "Go talk to the music director" is not the reply of someone who is taking any responsibility for the scheduling of services.
ISTM from what bib has told us that the timing of the carol service is a symptom of a wider neglect on the minister's part. That is something that should be taken up the line.
[ 22. September 2014, 21:30: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
These things are not easy. In my own (Congregationalist) setting, I as Minister have very little "clout" but have to do my best to take people along with me. As it happens I have at times wanted to do things differently from our MD, but the lay church leaders (aka Deacons) and the Church Meeting of members have never been prepared to turn "hint" into "push" or "shove", even when they largely agree with me.
Nor is there anyone "up the line" I can turn to in order to add extra pressure - the position of our Regional Ministers is (unlike a Bishop's) largely advisory, unless we stray into the realm of disciplinary procedures or illegality.
But even in a more hierarchical and episcopalian setting, ultimately one has to reach happy consensus and agreement. Even if the MD is under some kind of breach of contract - which seems unlikely in this case - all that would result from an invocation of the "proper rules" would be more dissent and ill-feeling.
IMO he definitely, and as a matter of common politeness, should have discussed things with the choir before deciding what he was going to do. Methinks that he is one of those MDs who very much sees their role as "directing" without debate. Has he done anything similar before?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
It's not the MD I'm suggesting that the person or people up the line should deal with, but the minister. If the minister is falling down on the job, whoever the minister is responsible to needs to know about it and do something about it.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Is it really a good example of how we are known for our love for one another if as soon as there's a disagreement about the way ministry is done, our first, or even second, reaction is to snitch to the headmaster?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
I've been reading quietly and now I want to ask a question that seems obvious to me:
Why are you doing a service of Christmas Lessons and Carols at all? What's the point?
Let me explain. These services are relatively new as parish activities (no more than 60 years in Canada) -- and not a whole lot older in cathedrals. When they mark Chrismas, they're a fun way to add music. They're not required for anyone, anytime.
So you in your parish have to decide at some point why you're doing this. Is it to mark Christmas? Is it an excuse to let the choir sing more elaborate music for once? Is it an evangelistic service? Or is, perhaps, just "what we've always done"?
You don't need to answer the question here, but you in your parish (that is, not you yourself but the parish as a whole) needs to get straight why you're doing this.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Although I don't think it is quite germane to the point of this thread, I think that's a very good question to ask. And most people wouldn't be able to give you an answer, except that "It's tradition" or "It's what churches do". Yet, as you rightly point out, it's not that old - the same as those two other "essentials" of the Church Year, Harvest Thanksgiving and Remembrance Sunday.
When I have queried this service, I usually get some replies along the line of "It brings people back together" (i.e. loved ones and friends who never go to church at other times of year"; or that, by bringing people into church, that it is evangelistic. After all, people are hearing the Bible passages about the birth of the Christ-child.
It is my contention that many people just enjoy singing the carols, grimly bear the more modern offerings foisted on them by the choir director, and let the readings wash over them in the mellow candlelit atmosphere. What they don't do is interact with the story in any meaningful personal and theological way.
I would personally love to scrap our lessons and carls service and do something quite different. But there have been howls of protest whenever I have suggested it. I have at least managed to bring in a couple of reflective poems or readings, meaningful intercessions and a short but carefully thought-out sermon - all with the aim of making people stop and think (we don't do the full nine lessons, so there is time for these things).
There have been one or two grumblings among those who see it largely as a musical occasion, but mostly the reaction has been positive.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Is it really a good example of how we are known for our love for one another if as soon as there's a disagreement about the way ministry is done, our first, or even second, reaction is to snitch to the headmaster?
Oh FFS. It's not about 'snitching to the headmaster'. It is about a proper pastoral concern for both the parish and the minister. IME a person in any position of responsibility who just gives up- which is what seems to be happening here- is often in need of help. Even if s/he is not, the people to whom s/he has a responsibility- in this case, I mean the parish/ congregation- usually will be.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Baptist tTrainfan quote:
[B[...meaningful intercessions...[/B]
I'm lothe to state the bleedin' obvious but there shouldn't be any other kind?
Or are you saying, as a minister, that the intercessions in your own place are more often of the 'shopping list' variety? If so then, as minister, surely it is down to you to ensure that people who lead intercessions are taught/ advised/ encouraged to draw them up in a certain way.
In any case, rather than bellyaching about whether people's intentions are right in being at a carol service, wouldn't it be better to rejoice that they are there are move on from that point.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Although I don't think it is quite germane to the point of this thread, I think that's a very good question to ask. And most people wouldn't be able to give you an answer, except that "It's tradition" or "It's what churches do". Yet, as you rightly point out, it's not that old - the same as those two other "essentials" of the Church Year, Harvest Thanksgiving and Remembrance Sunday.
When I have queried this service, I usually get some replies along the line of "It brings people back together" (i.e. loved ones and friends who never go to church at other times of year"; or that, by bringing people into church, that it is evangelistic. After all, people are hearing the Bible passages about the birth of the Christ-child.
It is my contention that many people just enjoy singing the carols, grimly bear the more modern offerings foisted on them by the choir director, and let the readings wash over them in the mellow candlelit atmosphere. What they don't do is interact with the story in any meaningful personal and theological way.
I would personally love to scrap our lessons and carls service and do something quite different. But there have been howls of protest whenever I have suggested it. I have at least managed to bring in a couple of reflective poems or readings, meaningful intercessions and a short but carefully thought-out sermon - all with the aim of making people stop and think (we don't do the full nine lessons, so there is time for these things).
There have been one or two grumblings among those who see it largely as a musical occasion, but mostly the reaction has been positive.
BT's right on the money. I remember going to a carol service once and commenting (when asked) that the diction was a bit unclear on the choir items. The idea that I was actually wanting to hear the words was considered bizarre.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Baptist tTrainfan quote:
[B[...meaningful intercessions...[/B]
I'm lothe to state the bleedin' obvious but there shouldn't be any other kind?
Or are you saying, as a minister, that the intercessions in your own place are more often of the 'shopping list' variety? If so then, as minister, surely it is down to you to ensure that people who lead intercessions are taught/ advised/ encouraged to draw them up in a certain way.
In any case, rather than bellyaching about whether people's intentions are right in being at a carol service, wouldn't it be better to rejoice that they are there are move on from that point.
The point I was really making is that the intercessions in a carol service of this kind are either vague and formulaic, or non-existent. But I take your point absolutely with reference to other services.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The prayers at a carol service should not be 'prayer lite' - in fact I'd go further and say this is an opportunity to show transient attendees that the church prays for everyone.
If you're looking for a template you could do worse than look at the Bidding Prayer written by Milner-White for his Festival of Nine Lessons and Carols - its pretty comprehensive, although you might want to expand certain sections according to your own concerns.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Baptist Trainfan quote:
...meaningful intercessions...
I'm lothe to state the bleedin' obvious but there shouldn't be any other kind? ...
That gets a ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
A shopping list is more "meaningful intercessions" than the sentimental misplaced address-to-the-congregation-rephrased-as-an-address-to-God with fluffy aspirations and self congratulatory references that I've know all too often.
Naming specific persons and situations (without telling God what to do about them) avoids that.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
My pet hate is the intercessor who starts off petitions with "That you might ..." or similar.
As in "I might go shopping on Monday unless it rains".
Plain stupid.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Roselyn
Shipmate
# 17859
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Posted
Intercessions reflect the concerns of the people. This can be specific...eg we need rain or general...peace would be good.
They can be local...travellers during holiday times or global...ebola.
They relate these concerns to a desire to do God's will in whatever situation, capacity we have.
Posts: 98 | From: gold coast gld australia | Registered: Oct 2013
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I cringe at prayers that contain the phrase 'we just want to thank you/ask you' etc ad infinitum instead of simply saying thank you Lord. It seems that some people feel the need to use a special language in prayer that they would not normally use.
Thanks for all the thoughtful replies on my carols dilemma. I doubt if anything will change here except that I have been asked to sing in messiah the same day, so I might decide to jump ship and do this.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I cringe at prayers that contain the phrase 'we just want to thank you/ask you' etc ad infinitum instead of simply saying thank you Lord.
Ah, the Prayers of the Just...!
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
My pet hate is the intercessor who starts off petitions with "That you might ..." or similar.
That is avoided if the biddings are grammatically addressed to the congregation, giving them something to pray for, rather than addressed to God.
ie. Let us pray for Christopher our bishop
NOT Dear father God, we just really want to pray for our bishop Christopher and the many difficult decisions he has to make. Guide him in his work and on and on and on....
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I cringe at prayers that contain the phrase 'we just want to thank you/ask you' etc ad infinitum instead of simply saying thank you Lord.
I know these as Jesus Weejus prayers: "Jesus Weejus thank you, and Jesus Weejus bless you..." etc.
Having shared that bit of snark, I am happy that anyone is praying at all! I would rather hear Jesus Weejus than condescending refusals to pray at all.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
My pet hate is the intercessor who starts off petitions with "That you might ..." or similar.
As in "I might go shopping on Monday unless it rains".
Plain stupid.
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to there. I like petitions introduced in that way, like this:
"That you might grant to N, our bishop, and to all his/her people your Spirit of unity and love, we pray to you, O Lord.
Lord, hear our prayer."
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Oh Basilica, have you no faith?
Might expresses possibility, chance or permission - he said he might be late
or a possibility relying on an unfulfilled condition - we might have won had we played better.
So your sample intercession quote:
That you might grant to N, our bishop, and to all his/her people your Spirit of unity and love, we pray to you, O Lord
can be interpreted
There is a chance you could give our bishop, and possibly their flock as well, your Spirit of unity and love - of course this could be dependent on our prayers because if we don't pray for us to be imbued with your Spirit it may not happen - but we pray to you anyway.
Is that really your intention?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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AndyB
Shipmate
# 10186
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Posted
The pressure to hold a Carol Service before 24th December is now irresistible unless you are quite sure that the congregation and choir will turn up. Not many churches will be in a position to do that, but those who can ought to.
I go with the modern tendency to hold a Carol Service on Advent 4, preferably in the evening, and, with the exception of children's services, that will be the first time any Christmas-specific hymns and carols will be sung. Until that service, it will all be Advent and general hymns except for the children's Christmas Tree service or whatever it's called this year.
I have no mission of having a Carol Service on the Sunday after Christmas. Turnout would be dreadful, as it is now such an important part of family time over the holiday.
On top of that, this year I will almost certainly need to take Christmas Day and the Sunday after Christmas off for family reasons!
[ 27. September 2014, 11:04: Message edited by: AndyB ]
Posts: 149 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2005
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Oh Basilica, have you no faith?
Might expresses possibility, chance or permission - he said he might be late
or a possibility relying on an unfulfilled condition - we might have won had we played better.
So your sample intercession quote:
That you might grant to N, our bishop, and to all his/her people your Spirit of unity and love, we pray to you, O Lord
can be interpreted
There is a chance you could give our bishop, and possibly their flock as well, your Spirit of unity and love - of course this could be dependent on our prayers because if we don't pray for us to be imbued with your Spirit it may not happen - but we pray to you anyway.
Is that really your intention?
Nonsense: "might" in this context is the subjunctive of "may". It's slightly eccentric from sequence-of-tense perspective (I'd personally use "may" here, or omit the word altogether) but it's perfectly acceptable English grammar.
It's little different from "We pray, O Lord, that you might grant to N, our bishop, and to all his/her people your Spirit of unity and love." It is the construction that I was taught to call the "indirect command", though apparently no one else does.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Agreed. To pray (or ask) for something implies a measure of doubt as to the response - however certain we may feel about it! - and automatically attracts the subjunctive. "Might" is correct, "will" is not.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
If you don't mind me saying, this is nonsense.
Nobody asks God to do something with the vague thought that perhaps he might do it if he isn't too busy etc etc etc. , but we don't really mind if he doesn't.
quote:
That you might grant to N, our bishop, and to all his/her people your Spirit of unity and love, we pray to you, O Lord
Is a more polite way of approaching a superior and saying
quote:
Please, please, please give N, our bishop, and all his/her people your Spirit of unity and love, but we want to say this politely because you are sovereign, and bigger than we are.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
God already knows what he is going to do vis-a-vis the bishop, and is unlikely to be swayed by our opinion.
Wouldn't it be better to pray for the bishop, that he **might** set his foot upon the path that God has prepared for him to trod.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Wouldn't it be better to pray for the bishop, that he **might** set his foot upon the path that God has prepared for him to trod.
[grammar police] tread, not trod [/grammar police]
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Basilica quote:
Nonsense: "might" in this context is the subjunctive of "may". It's slightly eccentric from sequence-of-tense perspective (I'd personally use "may" here, or omit the word altogether) but it's perfectly acceptable English grammar.
Balderdash.
The subjunctive of may is may: might is the simple past of the verb.
If you want proof (other than close reading of Fowler) look no further than The Litany quote:
That it may please thee to illuminate all Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, with true knowledge and understanding ...
Whence may children absorb correct language and usage if not from public speech?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
That it may please thee to illuminate all Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, with true knowledge and understanding ...
Oh dear. If they did that, they might start swimming rivers.
Miss Amanda will get her wrap and go do penance for forgetting how to conjugate "to tread".
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bax
Shipmate
# 16572
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Posted
If true (and I can only assume it is some sort of mis-print) Sherborne Abbey seem to be able to trump the OP by having two school carol services in SEPTEMBER:
http://www.sherborneabbey.com/choir/musiclist.php?m=9&y=2014
Unless a "School carol service" has some sort of local significance that escapes me, I can only pray that is is error (and they are really beginning of term services of some sort) It would be early even for Michealmas, let alone Christmas...
Posts: 108 | Registered: Aug 2011
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