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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Why are Saints' Days transferred to Monday in TEC? (Page 1)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Why are Saints' Days transferred to Monday in TEC?
macasher
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Having recently come from Britain, I'm mystified about why The Episcopal Church transfers Major Feasts to Monday. The Prayer Book allows some leeway, but normal practice seems to be that most churches would have celebrated neither Holy Cross on Sunday, 14 September nor Saint Matthew on 21 September. When a major Feast happens to fall on a Sunday and doesn't cut across Advent, Lent or Easter, why not celebrate it? Otherwise, apart from All Saints and Patronal Festivals, there is little opportunity to celebrate the saints apart from poorly attended weekday Eucharists. What is the Prayer Book's rationale for giving precedence to the Sunday's propers? Is the practice to stay in line with Protestant ecumenical partners? Would there be resistance to observing Major Feasts when they fall on a Sunday?
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BulldogSacristan
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In my experience, major feasts in "green seasons," falling on a Sunday are celebrated on Sunday in practice. The prayer book has some kind of peculiar language where, yes, the Umpteenth Sunday after the Pentecost takes precedence, but it also says the the readings, preface, collect--really the whole proper--of a feast day that falls on a Sunday outside of Advent, Lent, or Easter can be used instead of that Sunday's proper.

I suppose if you were to follow the prayer book to the letter, you could celebrate the feast but you couldn't actually call it the feast. It would still have to be the Umpteenth Sunday after the Pentecost. That would be silly, and most places just celebrate the feast in its entirety. For instance, yesterday we celebrated St. Matthew. The Sunday before was Holy Cross; both kept in festal red.

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Autenrieth Road

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I think I recall being told that it's because nothing/no-one takes precedence over Jesus Christ, whom we celebrate every Sunday.

I miss the old way with saints celebrated on Sundays. You're right, in the new way at least at my church they rarely get mentioned on Sundays, and never the red vestments.

Our new rector seems to have different ideas than our old rector though, so I'm hopeful. We actually celebrated the patronal festival this year, which we never did under the old rector.

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BroJames
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It's not just TEC that does this. It is also provided for in the CofE's Common Worship Lectionary.

IMHO it is a provision which makes more sense when the Saint's day interrupts a particular seasonal flow, but even out of season it may interrupt a balanced pattern of teaching following a consistent lectionary flow. (E.g. this year, Celebrating St Matthew on 21st involved breaking the flow of his presentation of Jesus' teaching about the kingdom of heaven, the greatest and the least and so on.)

Here's the provision: Table of Transferences

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Anglican_Brat
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The Canadian Book of Alternative Services for the Anglican Church of Canada do allow a few Saints Days to be kept on a Sunday:

The Feast of St Michael and All Angels
The Feast of St Mary the Virgin
The Nativity of John the Baptist
The Feast of Sts Peter and Paul

As well, the Feast of the Presentation of Our Lord, and Holy Cross Day also take precedence on the Sunday.

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Knopwood
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We kept St Matthew yesterday, in red, which did not surprise me since we follow the BCP kalendar and it's a red-letter day. I was somewhat more surprised that our Lutheran neighbours also celebrated "Sankt Matthäus" (in red, I assume, though I wasn't there). They'll certainly be in red again on Reformation Sunday (A_B, your sig is so out of date it's going to be current again soon!).

Because of our old-calendar* ways, we enjoyed quite a few reprieves from the long green march: SS. Peter & Paul, their Octave Day, St Bartholomew, and then Holy Cross and St Matthew. I'm especially looking forward to High Mass on Childermass, which you don't get every year!

(*very old, it turns out: even the local "Traditional Catholic" shack is keeping their Ember Days this week, a week later than us!)

[ 22. September 2014, 16:27: Message edited by: LQ ]

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Fr Weber
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Our Ember Days were last week as well, but they were more or less subsumed by St Hildegard, St Theodore of Tarsus, and the Vigil of St Matthew.

For Sundays, we adhere to the BCP 1928 (USA) tables of precedence. Generally speaking, green Sundays are pre-empted by Prayer Book feasts, and Sundays in Lent and Advent are privileged.

Personally, I feel as if Ordinary Time can become dreary without a white or red day occasionally to change it up a bit. The feast days of saints are feasts of our Lord too; at least when we keep them in the right proportion, all the saints point to Him.

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Angloid
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Modern (Roman) Catholic practice is to abandon altogether any saints day that clashes with a Sunday, but to observe feasts of our Lord (such as Holy Cross). The principle is that all Sundays are feasts of Our Lord, but it is of course breached by solemnities such as Our Lady and the church's patron saint. Anglican custom of transferring observances to the next day have some merit it seems to me. Now that we have a sensible lectionary with a logical sequence of readings it is unhelpful to interrupt it too often (as many C of E churches would have done with Holy Cross, St Matthew and probably Harvest - or even St Michael anticipated - for three weeks running.)

The average C of E worshipper does need to be more conscious of the role of the saints, but this is something that should be addressed by teaching, making more of All Saints, and encouraging weekday attendance.

Says he dogmatically.

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Fr Weber
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Well, there are two extremes. One is "Let's not disturb the glorious and endless procession of green Sundays," and the other is "Let's allow any penny-ante commemoration whatsoever to pre-empt the Sunday celebration."

Both are off base. The Exaltation of the Holy Cross isn't a feast that appears in the 1928 BCP, so it was commemorated on Trinity XIII. The Feast of St Matthew, Apostle & Evangelist is a BCP feast, and takes precedence over Sundays after Trinity, so that's what we did yesterday. The Feast of St Michael and All Angels takes place on the 29 September, so the most it will get on Sunday 9/28 is its First Evensong.

I find that the historic BCP tradition is a good compromise between the baroque complexity of the Tridentine Missal and the hyper-rationalized calendar of the post-V2 church. Just enough variance to prevent things from becoming completely dull!

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leo
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I side with the RCC on this one.

The lectionary gets mucked about when you do saints on Sundays e.g. I recently preached on Ss Peter & Paul in June - the Caesarea Philippi gospel, only to find that my nest sermon, a month later, had the same gospel for the 'ordinary Sunday' in Year A. Meanwhile, people missed out on whatever readings would have happened on June 29th.

Every 6 years, assuming there is a leap year somewhere, these saints will knock out the ordinary readings. It only takes an illness for you to miss out on a chunk of scripture for 12 years!

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Fr Weber
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If only Bibles in a language understood of the people were readily available somewhere!

[Devil]

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--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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dj_ordinaire
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In the Church of Ireland it seems to be entirely at the whim of the clergy. Most parishes follow the firmly Protestant tradition of Ordinary Sundays, others take the chance to switch (as an example, neither Holy Cross Day nor St. Matthew were kept at my current church... they may have been moved to Monday but as there are no services on Monday the point is rather moot!)

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Gee D
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We celebrated St Matthew on 21 September; a few weeks ago, St Stephen was remembered on his alternate day, being a Sunday.

Angloid may be right in theory about encouraging people to attend church mid-week. While that may work in the UK, it is most unlikely to be successful here. Few people work in the parish they normally attend and the chances of getting people out to an evening service mid-week is low. We have good attendances at mid-week evening services for Ash Wednesday, Maundy Thursday and All Souls (and of course Christmas Eve), but I'd be surprised if that would carry through to saints' days. Better to have the interruption to the lectionary and a hiccup or 2 with sermons than to miss wider observance.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
In the Church of Ireland it seems to be entirely at the whim of the clergy. Most parishes follow the firmly Protestant tradition of Ordinary Sundays,

Not only a Protestant tradition, as has been pointed out!

But Leo would find, I think, that SS Peter and Paul would oust the normal Sunday even in Rome, because it is a solemnity. I think there are enough of these in the course of a year to allow awareness of the saints without destroying the continuity of the lectionary.

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Ceremoniar
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Modern (Roman) Catholic practice is to abandon altogether any saints day that clashes with a Sunday, but to observe feasts of our Lord (such as Holy Cross). The principle is that all Sundays are feasts of Our Lord, but it is of course breached by solemnities such as Our Lady and the church's patron saint.

As well as Sts. Peter and Paul, and the Nativity of St. John Baptist.
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Knopwood
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I admit that the Roman criteria for what trumps a Sunday completely evade me. Parishes here had SS Peter & Paul on Sunday just like us, yet last year the Nativity of Our Lady was for them bumped off the kalendar altogether, so they seem to fall afoul of both of Fr Weber's twin errors at once! (Not that P&P are penny-ante, but they're certainly not the Theotokos).

[ 23. September 2014, 01:48: Message edited by: LQ ]

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Ceremoniar
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
I admit that the Roman criteria for what trumps a Sunday completely evade me. Parishes here had SS Peter & Paul on Sunday just like us, yet last year the Nativity of Our Lady was for them bumped off the kalendar altogether, so they seem to fall afoul of both of Fr Weber's twin errors at once! (Not that P&P are penny-ante, but they're certainly not the Theotokos).

The Nativity of Our Lady is a feast, not a solemnity (unless one is in a church or oratory named for her nativity). Our Lady's three major solemnities historically are her Assumption (15 Aug), Conception (8 Dec) and Motherhood (1 Jan), which is also the Octave Day of Christmas. All of these trump a Sunday.
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Knopwood
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I cannot imagine why her Conception should outrank her Nativity.
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ChastMastr
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Actually, I have encountered precisely the reverse, and it drives me crazy. We wind up with things like "All Saints Sunday" and I keep thinking, "But it's not, it's November 1, why can't you bother to have a weekday service for something like this?" [Frown]

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
I cannot imagine why her Conception should outrank her Nativity.

Perhaps because her conception is held by some to be immaculate, whereas there is no such dogma about her nativity.

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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
In the Church of Ireland it seems to be entirely at the whim of the clergy. Most parishes follow the firmly Protestant tradition of Ordinary Sundays,

Not only a Protestant tradition, as has been pointed out!

But Leo would find, I think, that SS Peter and Paul would oust the normal Sunday even in Rome, because it is a solemnity. I think there are enough of these in the course of a year to allow awareness of the saints without destroying the continuity of the lectionary.

Well, Peter and Paul would certainly outrank the Sunday in Rome itself (assuming you mean the city rather than the RC church) as they are the patrons of the city... but point taken!

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
I admit that the Roman criteria for what trumps a Sunday completely evade me. Parishes here had SS Peter & Paul on Sunday just like us, yet last year the Nativity of Our Lady was for them bumped off the kalendar altogether, so they seem to fall afoul of both of Fr Weber's twin errors at once! (Not that P&P are penny-ante, but they're certainly not the Theotokos).

They have different ranks. So, whether the Sunday is celebrated and the feast commemorated (or even moved) or vice versa depends entirely upon the rank of the Sunday and the feast in question. So, if you have a first class feast and a second class Sunday then the feast is celebrated. If they are of the same rank then the Sunday is celebrated. This was simplified somewhat during the time of John XXIII but it was much more complicated with six different classes of feasts.

This is from memory so I could be wrong.

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Forthview
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It depends also whether the Solemnity is a holyday of obligation or not.Holydays of Obligation vary from country to country ,(theoretically from diocese to diocese.)Ss Peter and Paul is considered to be a Holyday of Obligation,although in many countries there is a dispensation given.In fact the UK is one of the few countries where SS Peter and Paul is still observed as a Holyday of Obligation .

Similarly the Immaculate Conception is to be considered as a Holyday of Obligation,though not observed as such in many countries.The Nativity of the BVM has not been considered as a Holyday
of Obligation since medieval times.That is why the 8th September if it falls on a Sunday would be the Sunday in Ordinary time.If the 8th December falls on a Sunday the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is transferred as the Sundays of Advent are considered to be more important.
That is the general rule,however last year in Italy pope Francis gave special permission for all dioceses in Italy to observe the Immaculate Conception on Sunday 8th December.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
In the Church of Ireland it seems to be entirely at the whim of the clergy. Most parishes follow the firmly Protestant tradition of Ordinary Sundays

But it has become 'catholic' to follow the lectionary since Vatican 2 re-emphasised scripture.

The RCC only transfers solemnities to Sundays (and only in countries where they aren't public holidays), not all saints days

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Leo would find, I think, that SS Peter and Paul would oust the normal Sunday even in Rome, because it is a solemnity. I think there are enough of these in the course of a year to allow awareness of the saints without destroying the continuity of the lectionary.

I know that. But not in the C of E.

Though not a 'saints day' I also get annoyed that 'Mothering Sunday' tends to replace the readings for Lent 4 - so the blind man of John 9 never, ever gets read in the C of E, despite it's being part of a suite of readings which go back to very ancient times known as 'the scrutinies'.

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Adam.

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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
I cannot imagine why her Conception should outrank her Nativity.

Seriously? Sure, being born is a pretty major event in most people's lives. But when a human being is conceived without stain of original sin, that's an astounding world-altering event. I would expect the latter to be celebrated with greater solemnity than the former.

Now, I don't know how much of what I've just said you agree with. But you claimed to not even be able to imagine why it could be the case, and I'll admit to not being able to imagine what could have kept you from imagining that.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Leo would find, I think, that SS Peter and Paul would oust the normal Sunday even in Rome, because it is a solemnity. I think there are enough of these in the course of a year to allow awareness of the saints without destroying the continuity of the lectionary.

I know that. But not in the C of E.


Though not the sort of Anglican that wilfully ignores our own liturgical traditions in favour of mechanical obedience to Roman Catholic rubrics, in this instance I tend to be guided by RC practice. The C of E gives the option to celebrate, or not, 'festivals' on Sundays, and rather than never doing this, or always, I would follow the general rule that feasts of our Lord and 'solemnities' (I know, not a C of E term) trump the Sundays but not otherwise. But it's all a bit theoretical for me now since I am not in charge of a parish.
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venbede
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I think the RCs have it right in this: John the Baptist, Peter and Paul, 15 August all trump a Sunday, otherwise feasts of the Lord.

In my experience High Church Anglicans like a bit of exoticism and tend to take any excuse for a saint. which if they were more Roman they wouldn't.

I'd be sorry to miss Holy Cross Day. I don't find St Bartholomew very edifying,

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
I cannot imagine why her Conception should outrank her Nativity.

Seriously? Sure, being born is a pretty major event in most people's lives. But when a human being is conceived without stain of original sin, that's an astounding world-altering event. I would expect the latter to be celebrated with greater solemnity than the former.

Now, I don't know how much of what I've just said you agree with. But you claimed to not even be able to imagine why it could be the case, and I'll admit to not being able to imagine what could have kept you from imagining that.

I guess it depends if the distinction is made only by those communities that define it as Immaculate. If so, then what you say is relevant. Do WR Orthodox miss out the Nativity of the BVM altogether if it's a Sunday?

Mind you, as a former trad RC myself, I was scandalized the last time December 8 was a Sunday and in at least the EF of the Roman Rite it trumped the Sunday in Advent, which I thought was surely sacrosanct while the Nativity was so obliterated by the mere green Sunday that it didn't even merit a transfer. It's a pretty rare thing when even I have to admit the Reformation got something right!

That said, it's hardly as if solemnities are rationed. Your comment could serve as an explanation for why, if we had to choose between the two, the December should be the solemnity. But we don't. The uniqueness of the IC in the systems that hold to it are not an argument for omitting the celebration of September 8 entirely! And besides, none of this applies to SS. Peter & Paul, or St John the Baptist.

So no, quite independent of the dogmatic definitions or lack thereof, I cannot conceive of any logic on which the IC is not only more significant theologically, but able liturgically to bump one of the privileged Sundays of Advent while the Nativity is wiped off the map by the umpteenth in ordinary. And nothing on this thread so far, I'm afraid, convinces me that there is such a logic, so I would echo your "Seriously?"

[ 23. September 2014, 17:58: Message edited by: LQ ]

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Ceremoniar
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The celebration of the IC on a Sunday when it falls there was always the traditional method. The Sundays of Advent were not thought of as privileged, as the Sundays of Lent were, until the V2 reforms came in. In fact, there was no Advent preface at all in the missal until 1962, when the four optional Gallican prefaces (Advent being one of them) were included in an appendix at the back of the missal. So seeing Sundays of Advent protected is a very recent development, from 1970. (Curiously enough, when the IC is transferred in the OF to Monday, here in the US the obligation to attend Mass is not transferred, though she is our national patroness. Go figure.)

The Nativity of the BVM was previously celebrated when it fell on a Sunday, with the Sunday after Pentecost commemorated. However, the kalendar reforms in 1955 and 1960 began to establish the pre-eminence of Sundays, so the 1962 missal no longer included her on a Sunday, since it was not a first-class feast, and from that point on, no second-class feast ever pre-empted the Sunday, nor was it transferred. Only first-class feasts received that privilege, if impeded. It is consistent from that perspective.

As for her Conception, there should be no skittishness about the I-word being in front of it. If one celebrates her Conception, the assumption (no pun intended) is that it was Immaculate. The Church would never celebrate the Conception if it were in sin. Anglican kalendars that observe the Conception of the BVM are simply continuing what was always done, and thus imply Our Lady's sinlessness. Celebrating her Nativity, in fact, also relates to her IC, as explained below.

The Nativity of St. John the Baptist is celebrated for a similar reason. His was not an IC, but he was cleansed in the womb, and was thus born free of sin, which is why his nativity, Our Lady's and Our Lord's, are the only births celebrated. All other saints are celebrated on their "heavenly birthdays," i.e., their date of death, or in some cases, other important dates, such as their translation, consecration, etc. St. John is also mentioned immediately after Our Lady and the archangels in the Confiteor, litany of the saints and most other prayers/devotions for the same reason.

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Enoch
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This is not quite as stupid a question as it sounds.

Do those who get particularly concerned about whether one day takes precedence over another have anywhere, somewhere in their spiritual subconscious, a feeling that 'if we get this wrong, either God will not accept our worship quite as much, or a saint will feel slighted, be all hissy about it, and perhaps get his/her own back on us for dissing him or her'?

Be honest please.

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Adam.

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[Much x-posting; this was written as a response to LQ.]

In the Ordinary Form, the Immaculate Conception is transferred to Monday if 12/8 is a Sunday. The Obligation to attend Mass does not transfer.

To some extent, Sunday-bumping feasts are rationed. If every saintly Tomasina, Dick or Harriet bumps a Sunday we'd completely lose the point of the Sunday reading cycle. In particular, letting the biblical order of each gospel inform how we hear it liturgically (the genius of the lectio continua is that it respects the inspiration not just of individual pericopes, but of the structure/ordering of biblical books).

If every Marian feast day bumped, the effect would be almost as severe, as there are so many of them. But, there is also value in picking a few of particular significance and saying these trump regular Sunday celebration. The nativity is a Feast day (which puts it above most apparitions, which I think makes sense), but not a Solemnity.

[ 23. September 2014, 21:34: Message edited by: Hart ]

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Adam.

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
This is not quite as stupid a question as it sounds.

Do those who get particularly concerned about whether one day takes precedence over another have anywhere, somewhere in their spiritual subconscious, a feeling that 'if we get this wrong, either God will not accept our worship quite as much, or a saint will feel slighted, be all hissy about it, and perhaps get his/her own back on us for dissing him or her'?

Be honest please.

For me, this question has to split in two. The first is: are the bishops making the right decisions? The second: am I following those decisions adequately?

The second is easy to analyze. The root of this question for me comes down to whether I am being diligent in serving the people the Roman Rite and not the Hart Rite, and faithful to my ordination promise of respect and obedience to the local ordinary.

On days (generally weekdays) when we are given legitimate choices, I don't fret too much over which choice I'm making for the propers for the Mass. As a religious, I have a preference for celebrating religious saints. I try to avoid departing from the lectio continua when applicable, even when options proper to a Saint are offered. Of course, when mandated, I use the appointed readings. But, I'll admit to sometimes being a little disappointed about 'skipping part of the story.'

The former question is more difficult. I'm not worried about 'slighting saints' (as there are more ways to honor a saint). For instance, last Sunday we did the OT Sunday, but I inserted St. Matthew's name into the Eucharist prayer. I do worry, I think, about confusing the people with too many feasts and disrupting the natural ordering of the lections (gospel in particular). I suppose my concern is mainly catechetical.

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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
This is not quite as stupid a question as it sounds.

Do those who get particularly concerned about whether one day takes precedence over another have anywhere, somewhere in their spiritual subconscious, a feeling that 'if we get this wrong, either God will not accept our worship quite as much, or a saint will feel slighted, be all hissy about it, and perhaps get his/her own back on us for dissing him or her'?

Be honest please.

Absolutely not.

In fact, it is very much the opposite - my instinct is to explore the lives of the saints, partly because their experience seems closer to my own, and partly because it allows us to explore some rarely seen parts of the Church liturgy.

I am aware that this is, to some extent, a human weakness of mine. The work of Christ should be enough.

So, my hope is that that God will indulge us in our devotions to His Saints. Not at all that I think He will be angry if we do it less than we should, or at the wrong time (the risks of worshipping them inappropriately or ignoring them completely notwithstanding).

Does this provide the sort of answer you were looking for?

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
As for her Conception, there should be no skittishness about the I-word being in front of it. If one celebrates her Conception, the assumption (no pun intended) is that it was Immaculate. The Church would never celebrate the Conception if it were in sin.

You're not the first to make this assertion, but it doesn't hold up as a universal observation, and rests on a Western (ahem) assumption. The Eastern churches don't have the same Augustinian idea of conception "in sin" but it would be a bit cheeky to tell them they don't thereby have any reason to celebrate the feast. Likewise, as you point out, I don't think anyone is suggesting St John the Baptist was conceived immaculately, and yet the feast of his Conception is September 23.

Did the rank of the feast change in the Roman kalendar with Ineffabilis Deus?

quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
If every Marian feast day bumped, the effect would be almost as severe, as there are so many of them.

This did occur to me: the Roman kalendar rejoices in a great many more Marian commemorations, titles, and apparitions than my own. But we're not exactly talking about the Translation of the Winding Sheet and Tomb of Our Lady here. This is one of the "big six" shared by the Roman Rite and BCP. If anything (and lest I be accused of singling anyone out) our books make the point more starkly. In the Canadian BAS (and I assume the American BCP), two feasts of Our Lady are mere memorials, while the rest are Holy Days. Strangely, in our case it's the Nativity and the Conception! I have no idea of the reason for this distinction or for choosing those two either. Someone (I think Mockingbird?) has advocated removing that anomaly on one of the after-the-1979-BCP wishlist threads.
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Quam Dilecta
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As Ceremoniar has pointed out, the Roman Rite (and, I might add, Anglo-Catholic usage) formerly allowed for for the Commemoration of a saint's day which fell on a Sunday or a higher-ranking feast. ("Commemoration" meant that the collect of the saint's day would be read following that of Sunday.)

This sensible custom assured that a Sunday-only worshiper at least occasionally heard about the "great cloud of witnesses" to the Gospel. Similarly, when a "Green Sunday" was trumped by a major feast day, the collect of the Sunday would follow that of the feast. In religious houses and other churches where several Masses were celebrated daily, a separate Mass might be offered for each feast.

In his blog, Father Hunwicke recently commended the older Anglican practice, whereby a red letter day trumped a Sunday after Trinity. I agree with him that little is lost when this happens, since St. Matthew, for example, only displaces a Sunday once in seven years.

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georgiaboy
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As the OP referred to TEC, I can report (since I was around then) that the revisers and amenders of the BCP were strongly influenced by what was happening at that time with RCC kalendar and rubrics. (Perhaps unduly so? [Biased]
The point that was NOT seriously considered (by the academically isolated liturgical boffins), though many of us pointed it out, was that in the RCC there was customarily a mass every day, whereas in most TEC parishes there was not, in fact, the only weekday mass normally found was that of St-Wednesday-at-10. Thus the 'transferred' saint was in fact dropped. IMO that resulted in a diminution of liturgical richness, though possibly others didn't notice. [Frown]

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That is an interesting theory but falls because, in the RCC, most superseded feasts are not transferred but in fact are dropped. At least in Anglican usage the saints day would get a mention at Morning or Evening prayer, even if there were no Monday Eucharist, and even if the office were only said privately by the clergy, in the RCC they would be totally forgotten (unless mentioned in the intercessions).
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I think that would depend on which usage of the Roman Rite you're referring to.
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We kept St Matt last Sunday - we also kept St Synod which buggered things up a bit, but them's the breaks.

I wonder (and don't necessarily concur) that the issue isn't pedagogic - a sort of subtext in one or two previous comments. If, as I indicated on my "left footed wombats" or whatever it was thread, the momentum of liturgical and proclamatory journey is constantly thwarted by 232 intrusions then the formative, pedagogical shape of the liturgy falls into a thousand twitching pieces of disarray. This refers not just to the obviously didactic, the sermon, but the whole shape of the propers, the readings, the sermon, the hymns and chants.

No ... I think I prefer to prioritize the Christological journey, and the Saints can wait in the mid day wings.

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

No ... I think I prefer to prioritize the Christological journey, and the Saints can wait in the mid day wings.

Couldn't you say though that the great cloud of witnesses, who are honored individually on these particular saints days, merely the latest step in that Christological journey. A journey that will only end at the sound of the last trumpet.
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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, I have encountered precisely the reverse, and it drives me crazy. We wind up with things like "All Saints Sunday" and I keep thinking, "But it's not, it's November 1, why can't you bother to have a weekday service for something like this?" [Frown]

Has no one else but me encountered this? I thought this was actually more common.

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Knopwood
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It does seem to be a bit of a parabola pattern in terms of churchmanship. You're more likely to see saints' days on a Sunday in one of two types of shacks. The first is traditional Anglo-Catholics who follow an order predating the Sunday fundamentalism of the Liturgical Movement, and the second is MOTR places that sit lightly to the calendar to begin with and have no qualms about moving, say, the Conversion of St Paul to the nearest Sunday in January to spice things up. (I've belonged to both). Meanwhile, liturgical-evangelical and modern-Catholic parishes alike will tend to privilege the Sunday.

(There's perhaps a similar effect on Remembrance Sunday, when very liberal congregations will ignore it, very traditional Anglo-Catholics - in England, at least - will have a requiem, and points in between will do up the civic religion).

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I think that would depend on which usage of the Roman Rite you're referring to.

Point taken. But that used by the vast majority of Western Rite RCs I would assume.
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
(There's perhaps a similar effect on Remembrance Sunday, when very liberal congregations will ignore it, very traditional Anglo-Catholics - in England, at least - will have a requiem, and points in between will do up the civic religion).

I thought requiems were forbidden on Sundays.

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, I have encountered precisely the reverse, and it drives me crazy. We wind up with things like "All Saints Sunday" and I keep thinking, "But it's not, it's November 1, why can't you bother to have a weekday service for something like this?" [Frown]

Has no one else but me encountered this? I thought this was actually more common.
'All Souls Sunday' is almost encouraged in Common Worship because it becomes the hinge leading to 'Sundays before Advent' (Much as Candlemass is for 'Sundays before Lent')

We have just abandoned it but used to keep All Saints on a Sunday, changing gear after the Communion into the All Souls departed list.

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Adam.

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I thought requiems were forbidden on Sundays.

Flipping through this year's ordo, funeral Masses are permitted on Sundays outside of Advent, Lent and Easter.

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
(There's perhaps a similar effect on Remembrance Sunday, when very liberal congregations will ignore it, very traditional Anglo-Catholics - in England, at least - will have a requiem, and points in between will do up the civic religion).

I thought requiems were forbidden on Sundays.
For you they are. For those following the traditional Roman Rite, there was a privilege in England & Wales for a Requiem Mass on Remembrance Sunday, carried over by some Episcopalians in North America. More faithful liturgy wonks than myself will no doubt be able to cite chapter and verse from the SCR.
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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, I have encountered precisely the reverse, and it drives me crazy. We wind up with things like "All Saints Sunday" and I keep thinking, "But it's not, it's November 1, why can't you bother to have a weekday service for something like this?" [Frown]

Has no one else but me encountered this? I thought this was actually more common.
I was asked once by a parishioner whether we were holding Epiphany services on the 2nd of January or the 9th. I responded that Epiphany was the 6th of January and that was when we would have the service. He was confused.

Octaves are fine--when we have a Sunday in the Octave of All Saints, I'm all in favor of commemorating it with some All Saints hymns--but I'm pretty adamantly against transferring feast days to Sunday just because "no one will come." By pre-emptively moving the feasts, you're pretty much ensuring that nobody will attend a weekday holy day service, and it becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.

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