Posted                       

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I hated Portnoy's Complaint. Protagonist was a whiny little shit.

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Posted                         

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Originally posted by North East Quine:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
I don't know if he's really considered contemporary 'classic' but I know he has a huge following, and I can't bear him - 'he' being Paolo Coelho. The only good thing I can say about "The Alchemist" is that it was better than "The Pilgrimage", which is the closest I've ever come to throwing a book across the room. Pseudo-spiritual willy-waving mumbo-jumbo, ugh.

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Agreed. I can see why "The Alchemist" might appeal to an angsty 14 year old - in fact I'd probably have loved it at 14 - but any older than that, no.

I love "Hard Times." It was a set text for the OU Foundation Arts course, so perhaps the joy of starting my history degree made everything in that context seem excellent. I've never managed to read "A Tale of Two Cities."

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That's the same course where I studied it and hated it

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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Neil Gaiman is one of those authors that I just know has a stupendous, worldchanging book in him. Unfortunately he never writes it, instead pouring out his putative genius on what feels like ephemera. (Ocean at the End of the Lane was severely disappointing.)

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Tubbs:

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Neil Gaiman is one of those authors that I just know has a stupendous, worldchanging book in him. Unfortunately he never writes it, instead pouring out his putative genius on what feels like ephemera. (Ocean at the End of the Lane was severely disappointing.)

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I liked it.

Tubbs

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Originally posted by venbede:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
My least favorite is Pride and Prejudice (hands down her most popular work) and my favorite is "Mansfield Park." That was her last book and I think her deepest, most mature work, and as you say, profoundly moral.

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Her last novel was in fact "Persuasion". But good on you for standing up for Fanny Price, who has been written off here as a goodie. God, what she has to put up with. Aunt Norris is Austen's nastiest character and all too believable.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Twilight:
I nearly got kicked out of two book clubs for this but I can't stop myself:

I hated Beloved.

I thought Toni Morrison was hell bent on inflicting every single recorded atrocity from the history of slavery on this one small group and making sure every last white person, including the abolitionists were pure evil. Morrison's anger omits all subtlety. None of the characters were developed past their own list of miserable happenings so the reader's empathy was reduced to what one might feel reading a newspaper account of tragedy.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Kitten:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tubbs:

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Neil Gaiman is one of those authors that I just know has a stupendous, worldchanging book in him. Unfortunately he never writes it, instead pouring out his putative genius on what feels like ephemera. (Ocean at the End of the Lane was severely disappointing.)

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I liked it.

Tubbs

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Me too, I like most of his work. Loved American Gods

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I hated Portnoy's Complaint. Protagonist was a whiny little shit.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by L'organist:


Now for a true stinker: although no one ever said it was a 'great' book, if you really want to plumb the depths track down a copy of The Heart has its Reasons by the late Duchess of Windsor. Over 300 pages of self-justifying tripe in a style of such dreadful arch whimsy it induces migraine and nausea.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Galloping Granny:

Gormenghast: Mervyn Peake was an artist and in every scene I felt him building the picture word by word like a painter with brush strokes. I revelled in it.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
I nearly got kicked out of two book clubs for this but I can't stop myself:

I hated Beloved.

I thought Toni Morrison was hell bent on inflicting every single recorded atrocity from the history of slavery on this one small group and making sure every last white person, including the abolitionists were pure evil. Morrison's anger omits all subtlety. None of the characters were developed past their own list of miserable happenings so the reader's empathy was reduced to what one might feel reading a newspaper account of tragedy.

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It's been a long time since I read 'Beloved' and my memories are probably heavily influenced by the film, but I suspect that the reality of slavery in that place and time was far worse in most cases than a modern fictional account. I can't imagine it was a way of life, for either slave or slave-holder, that admitted much subtlety.

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Les Miserables is a book that I would have sworn was impossible to bring to the musical stage. Shows you what I know, eh?

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Twilight:


I've read accounts by people who actually were slaves as well as people who lived through concentration camps during WWII and I'm always amazed at the human spirit that can survive through such things. Amazingly those people were still generous, still able to laugh at times, and still able to hope. I felt none of that in the characters in "Beloved," and I think it was because Morrison thought that any moment of joy or spark of wit would undermine her message. I think she underestimates the people who survived slavery as well as the intelligence of her readers.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Les Miserables is a book that I would have sworn was impossible to bring to the musical stage. Shows you what I know, eh?

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Well, the opera did suck. Badly.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Les Miserables is a book that I would have sworn was impossible to bring to the musical stage. Shows you what I know, eh?

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Well, the opera did suck. Badly.

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Dude, some things you learn to enjoy just so you can throw your arms around your friends' shoulders and drunkenly bawl out " Empty Chairs and Empty Tables."

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And while I did love Hugo's Les Miserables, here would be a rare occasion I would say, " get the abridged edition."

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:


I've read accounts by people who actually were slaves as well as people who lived through concentration camps during WWII and I'm always amazed at the human spirit that can survive through such things. Amazingly those people were still generous, still able to laugh at times, and still able to hope. I felt none of that in the characters in "Beloved," and I think it was because Morrison thought that any moment of joy or spark of wit would undermine her message. I think she underestimates the people who survived slavery as well as the intelligence of her readers.

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There are some very life-affirming texts about slaves, slave owners and Holocaust survivors, true. But perhaps we need to hear a little of the alternative, sometimes. Plenty of people would have been totally destroyed, morally and spiritually, by these experiences.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:


Now for a true stinker: although no one ever said it was a 'great' book, if you really want to plumb the depths track down a copy of The Heart has its Reasons by the late Duchess of Windsor. Over 300 pages of self-justifying tripe in a style of such dreadful arch whimsy it induces migraine and nausea.

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Oh, I read that in a couple of hours lying on the sofa a couple of Boxing Days ago, minding the dog while while Mrs A took the inlaws to the panto, and rather enjoyed it as a sort of extended Hello article. Suitable for convalescents and so on.

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You, Sir, win the grand prize for cattiness on this thread, hands down. And I say that with a
, rather than a , to be clear...

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

Posted                      

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I also hated Beloved, it wasn't the portrayal of slavery but the nature of the writing. I vaguely remember, (its been over 20 years since we did the book at school), that early on the character thinks / is described as feeling she needs a man to lift her heavy breasts, the way she needs one to help round the house.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I also hated Beloved, it wasn't the portrayal of slavery but the nature of the writing. I vaguely remember, (its been over 20 years since we did the book at school), that early on the character thinks / is described as feeling she needs a man to lift her heavy breasts, the way she needs one to help round the house.

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[...]

Really, I don't know why I try to explain it. I've read books where the protagonist is in as much unremitting agony and liked them better. It's really just the writing.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:
There is a specific kind of female (rather than feminist) writing / programme making that is obsessed with femaleness as understood as any bodily function, or attribute not common to both sexes. They have to tell you if the character has their period, or are "hormonal" or the sun sets like her memory of libido before she had six kids or whatever. And I find it turgid and alienating to read.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by anoesis:

quote:

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Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:


Now for a true stinker: although no one ever said it was a 'great' book, if you really want to plumb the depths track down a copy of The Heart has its Reasons by the late Duchess of Windsor. Over 300 pages of self-justifying tripe in a style of such dreadful arch whimsy it induces migraine and nausea.

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Oh, I read that in a couple of hours lying on the sofa a couple of Boxing Days ago, minding the dog while while Mrs A took the inlaws to the panto, and rather enjoyed it as a sort of extended Hello article. Suitable for convalescents and so on.

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You, Sir, win the grand prize for cattiness on this thread, hands down. And I say that with a
, rather than a , to be clear...

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The long LONG descriptions in older novels date back to the time when there was no photography, no Google, no Wikipedia. If you wanted to know what a whale was like, Herman Melville had to describe it for you because there was no other way for you to know.

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Most coastal populations would have seen a whale (which were far more plentiful in the 19th C), and whales were (and still are) seen in the Thames as far up as London (example here from the 1840s). Newspapers often used lithographs to illustrate their stories - often fancifully - and since whaling was a major activity across the world, paintings and prints of whalers and whales were common.

I just happen to think long descriptive passages fell out of vogue because they're startling tedious. And yes, Thomas Hardy, I'm looking at you...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It isn't a Great Book (although it is a great big book) but LOTR is stuffed with long boring descriptions too.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It isn't a Great Book (although it is a great big book) but LOTR is stuffed with long boring descriptions too.

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Sir! We meet at dawn, bring your second.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:



But some of these things, like tooth flossing, are just things that are dull and everyday, and that it is not interesting to read about. The author very properly feels that if it's not interesting (and cannot be made interesting) then it shouldn't be written about. Life is too short, to write, or read, about dull things.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It isn't a Great Book (although it is a great big book) but LOTR is stuffed with long boring descriptions too.

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Sir! We meet at dawn, bring your second.

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I'll be your second, LB.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Gwalchmai:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jane R:
My father-in-law always referred to D H Lawrence as 'The man who made sex boring'. I got as far as the second paragraph of Women in Love once before deciding that life was too short to bother reading the rest.

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Lady Chatterley's Lover would qualify for a Bad Sex award if were to be first published today.

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No, that award goes to Valley of the Dolls.

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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
But isn't that most likely just a reaction to a long tradition of women's writing in which it was considered inappropriate to talk about those things? I said on the Longbourn book club thread that you could read all of Austen without ever thinking anyone went to the bathroom ...

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Starbug:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gwalchmai:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jane R:
My father-in-law always referred to D H Lawrence as 'The man who made sex boring'. I got as far as the second paragraph of Women in Love once before deciding that life was too short to bother reading the rest.

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Lady Chatterley's Lover would qualify for a Bad Sex award if were to be first published today.

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No, that award goes to Valley of the Dolls.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:


Those who write about mundane bodily matters in a " behold how I am GoingThere" sort of way are kind of tedious. But a frank, non- sensational description of a character's tolieting habits can be revealing and entertaining.

...[snip]...

This would probably make a great thread of its own.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:


I can imagine that in an environment of PC readers it's hard to criticise a book like this. But you're probably on safer territory among such people if you make it clear that it's the style and not the content that you disapprove of. Although some of your comments above seemed to blend into content too, e.g. re the ghosts, and the slave holders being depicted as unremittingly bad people rather than being nuanced characters.

Did your book groups read any other novels by black authors about slavery, or was this the only one? I think it's very unfortunate when a just one or two books are singled out to represent what was a vast, complex and controversial history.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

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Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
But isn't that most likely just a reaction to a long tradition of women's writing in which it was considered inappropriate to talk about those things? I said on the Longbourn book club thread that you could read all of Austen without ever thinking anyone went to the bathroom ...

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Apart from Apthorpe and the Thunderbox in Sword of Honour I can't think of many books by men that say much about this daily experience.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Evangeline:
Why does one never hear Hemingway's work described as cock lit?

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Now see here, people of SoF. I was playing the piano in church this morning, and the visiting Bishop began his sermon with the tale of Hemingway's 6 word stories. I had to bite my tongue to prevent an outbreak of the giggles.

I blame you people.