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Source: (consider it) Thread: "Great" books we hate
Jemima the 9th
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
[tangent] The thing about Woman's Hour is that it discusses the things not discussed elsewhere, not that women are confined to listening to it. We can listen to Jim Al Khalili, Melvyn Bragg, anything and everything outside that three quarters of an hour, but those things are not discussed anywhere else, and they need to be. (Actually, I find the singer songwriters tedious and turn elsewhere.) [/tangent]

My beef with WH is not the discussion of Things Particular to Women, it's the endless carping about how today's young women aren't proper feminists and how they were all much better at it in the 70s.
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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Your reaction is like some of the women in my book group. You act as though I said slavery never existed or that slaves didn't suffer. We're talking about a work of fiction. I happen to think this subject deserves good writing and authentic characters. You seem to think any book at all written on this subject, becomes sacred because of it's subject matter. I don't. I'm a Christian but I don't think every book published as "Christian," is a good book.

I think you've misunderstood me.

I certainly didn't say that any book on slavery is 'sacred'. Indeed, I implied the opposite: firstly, I agreed that one has a perfect right to disapprove of an author's style. Secondly, I implied that it's preferable to read a range of fiction on the topic because no couple of novels can tell the whole 'sacred' truth about slavery. Thirdly, I didn't line myself up to approve of your book group pals. I'm simply aware that some PC people feel that this sort of writing is always beyond any sort of criticism, and I thought it might be wise to be careful and precise in arguing with people like that. But that's not because I feel just the same as they do (and I might have misunderstood what you said about them).

I do realise that in the USA slavery is a very sensitive topic, and I can understand that one might feel angry when supposedly sensible people start 'protecting' bad books just because of the subject matter. However, I don't believe that high aesthetic qualities are the only things that make a novel valuable or interesting, whatever the subject matter. Neither do I remember 'Beloved' as a bad book, though. I'll have to re-read it and check!

FWIW, I can think of two slavery novels that have been criticised for their flaws without creating any sort of backlash about their 'sacredness': 'Incomparable World' by S. I. Martin and 'Daddy Sharpe' by Fred Kennedy. To put it simply, the former has problems with editing, the latter with storytelling. Still, they were both engaging and I wasn't bored or frustrated with either of them so I wouldn't call them a bad novels. These are fairly subjective judgments, I admit.

(Re white abolitionists, they've been getting some bad press in academic circles recently!)

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And while I did love Hugo's Les Miserables, here would be a rare occasion I would say, " get the abridged edition."

Nonsense. The reason to read Les Miserables is to watch and see what tangent Hugo is going to go off on next. (Hugo is one of France's best poets - the tangents are prose poems.)
The other advantage of the tangents is that in real life it would be an intolerable coincidence that the same four or five people keep bumping into each other. You don't feel this so much when each encounter is separated by fifty pages on the Battle of Waterloo, or twenty pages on sewers.

Point 2 I like, but as to point1-- Hugo just struck me as someone way too impressed with his own poetry. And again I blame the editor. The unanridged version of Les Miz is like an 19th century version of The Tommyknockers.

That's right! I said The Tommyknockers !

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Kelly Alves

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Oh, and while I'm here, Jude the Obscure was yet another whiny little shit.

[ 01. December 2014, 01:53: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Starbug
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Having enjoyed The Hobbit, I was surprised that I just couldn't get into Lord of the Rings at all.

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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor

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Ariel
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Yes, they are surprisingly different. "The Hobbit" is a lot more accessible.
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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There is a large class of things that we simply don't write about and don't read about (except in medical textbooks and health articles): excretory matters, flatulence, flossing of the teeth, sanitary napkins, boborygmus (a pity, such a cool word!) and so forth.

Many of these are bodily functions and fall into the 'not in public, dear' category. It is interesting to look at what has moved into, and out of, this class over time. Sex, for instance, is now front and center in a way that would make Austen's eyes pop. But we are as shy as ever about bowel movements, and to a great extent cigarettes have moved into the no-go zone in my lifetime.

But some of these things, like tooth flossing, are just things that are dull and everyday, and that it is not interesting to read about. The author very properly feels that if it's not interesting (and cannot be made interesting) then it shouldn't be written about. Life is too short, to write, or read, about dull things.

But from the historical point of view, these things are fascinating. Austen didn't write about chamberpots because of rule 1, above. But they also came under rune 2, and now we know nothing of it, mostly.

For the urban poor until the very last part of the 20th century, at least in the UK, communal toilets meant that bowel habits were actually spoken about very casually. They'd be written about if the urban poor in those days were doing much writing. The Call The Midwife book (the original book) talks about how literal toilet humour was not considered rude or not for public ears at all, whereas discussion of sex very much was.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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la vie en rouge
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I liked Les Misérables with all its endless tangents. I think it helps to remember that one of the main characters is Paris. It isn’t just a story about Jean Valjean, Cosette and the rest. Also, unlike Moby Dick I actually found all the tangents enjoyable reading.

Nonetheless, I do think the hundred-page digression about the sewers is a bit unnecessary.

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
The unanridged version of Les Miz is like an 19th century version of The Tommyknockers.

That's right! I said The Tommyknockers !

That's the perfect comparison, Kelly! Nobody needs a ruthless editor more than Stephen King. I guess his publishers are so glad to have him they just let him run off as many words as he likes. It's all gold for them.

On Brenda's subject: I occasionally come across a writer who lets her protagonist wake up and use the toilet before hitting the shower, but it's rare. What always bores me to death, and this is more often in the Danielle Steele type chick-lit books -- detailed description of the clothes being worn, right down to the brand names of the shoes. The recent rash of food driven novels bore me, too, but at least those books are obviously written for foodies and easily avoided.

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, and while I'm here, Jude the Obscure was yet another whiny little shit.

Tell me about it. All that stuff about "the eastwrd position, and all creation groaning!" He wouldn't have lasted ten minutes in Ecclesiantics.

( [Biased] added in case anybody thinks I really am a heartless git.)

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Suitable for convalescents and so on.

That's a very good aside. Some books seem designed to be read when you're not feeling very well: most of Wodehouse for example.

On the other hand, I once read one of Susan Howatch's church-themed novels when I was suffering from bronchitis. Don't ever do that! All her pompous and arrogant ecclesiastics without a glimmer of humour or self-awareness prancing around some Establishment shrine of a cathedral close, drove me almost suicidal.

So much so that I could never face reading another of her massive tomes. She was highly thought of at one time (20 years ago perhaps?) but seems to have, understandably, faded from the scene. My impression was confirmed when I saw her on telly talking about her ideal candidate for Archbishop of Canterbury. Having seen that, I was quite relieved when we got Carey instead, which just shows!

(tangentially, the above reminds me of a comment by a recently-retired bishop about one of the supposed qualifications for that office being 'gravitas.' His interpretation of that was 'is he boring enough?')

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Penny S
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I am so glad to read that comment! My mother was recommended them by a fellow congregant in the village where she used to live, and I tried a couple, not finding them particularly helpful, but attributing the failing to me. One of them, though, got a bit squelchy (in description of a coupling - I don't like violent squelchy, either) without the participants feeling any moral problem, which they should have, bearing in mind their places in life and I gave up.

Then I heard her on "In the psychiatrist's chair with Anthony Clare - I missed the first part of the programme so deduced it was her from the content and the delivery. She was so sure of her superiority and her gift of discernment, and he was being very, very polite, and, I felt, allowing her to excavate her hole unprompted. Perhaps self awareness was something she simply couldn't write in others.

You have further confimed that my not liking the books wasn't a failing in me - it is so easy to pick up that idea when others do like something.

[ 01. December 2014, 13:34: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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The5thMary
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Suitable for convalescents and so on.

That's a very good aside. Some books seem designed to be read when you're not feeling very well: most of Wodehouse for example.

On the other hand, I once read one of Susan Howatch's church-themed novels when I was suffering from bronchitis. Don't ever do that! All her pompous and arrogant ecclesiastics without a glimmer of humour or self-awareness prancing around some Establishment shrine of a cathedral close, drove me almost suicidal.

So much so that I could never face reading another of her massive tomes. She was highly thought of at one time (20 years ago perhaps?) but seems to have, understandably, faded from the scene. My impression was confirmed when I saw her on telly talking about her ideal candidate for Archbishop of Canterbury. Having seen that, I was quite relieved when we got Carey instead, which just shows!

(tangentially, the above reminds me of a comment by a recently-retired bishop about one of the supposed qualifications for that office being 'gravitas.' His interpretation of that was 'is he boring enough?')

Ugh! I tried in vain to like Susan Howatch's books because Andrew M. Greeley, priest and "steamy novel" author was always raving about her and had some characters in his "Contract With An Angel" waxing rhapsodic about her. They keep saying, "She's the Anthony Trollope of the twentieth century". Well. I've never read any Anthony Trollope but if his writings are as ponderous and borrrrrrrrrrrrring as Howatch's writing, I'll just decline thanks. And speaking of Greeley, some of his books had moments in them I liked--especially God as a Womanly presence but Greeley WAS obsessed with women's breasts. All his male characters were breast-fixated and all his young women characters were wise beyond their years as had such stupid, unbelievable names: Lourdes Kim, an Asian American Catholic? Megan "Megperson" Tobin. After Greeley introduces Megan Tobin, he refers to her as "The Megperson" for the rest of the book. #@$! Annoying! Anyway, let me stop here or I will go on and on about Greeley's aggravating tropes.

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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.

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The5thMary
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quote:
My vote for that is for Anne Rice D'Pseudonym's Sleeping Beauty series.

I have nothing against spanking, sub fantasies, or a healthy dose of erotica, but there are only so many adjectives you can go through to describe gushing bodily fluids before things get tedious. And sticky.

Welllllll, that's true but one doesn't read those books cover to cover for the literary content. One reads them to...uhh...you know..."bang the bishop". "Dig down deep for a dime". "Have a date with Rosy Palm and her five sisters". [Killing me]

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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.

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Brenda Clough
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I went to a charity store once, and made a quick survey of the used book shelves. There was a separate shelf for the kiddie books: picture books, Harry Potter, Little House on the Prairie and so on. And there on the lower shelf was Sleeping Beauty, by A.N. Roquelaire. The clerks clearly did not know what the work was about. I didn't feel equal to an explanation. I just moved the book from the kid section to the top shelf of the grown-ups' bookcase.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
That's the perfect comparison, Kelly! Nobody needs a ruthless editor more than Stephen King. I guess his publishers are so glad to have him they just let him run off as many words as he likes. It's all gold for them.

As long as enough readers are happy to be idolatrising voyeurs, writers will be happy to masturbate for them.

quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
Having enjoyed The Hobbit, I was surprised that I just couldn't get into Lord of the Rings at all.

The Hobbit is a childrens' book, The Lord of the Rings is a saga.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
The unanridged version of Les Miz is like an 19th century version of The Tommyknockers.

That's right! I said The Tommyknockers !

That's the perfect comparison, Kelly! Nobody needs a ruthless editor more than Stephen King. I guess his publishers are so glad to have him they just let him run off as many words as he likes. It's all gold for them.


King himself said the brst thing that ever happened to him was when he got a ruthless editor. IMO this shows in his later works. ( Say, Dolores Clairborn and on.)

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
quote:
My vote for that is for Anne Rice D'Pseudonym's Sleeping Beauty series.

I have nothing against spanking, sub fantasies, or a healthy dose of erotica, but there are only so many adjectives you can go through to describe gushing bodily fluids before things get tedious. And sticky.

Welllllll, that's true but one doesn't read those books cover to cover for the literary content. One reads them to...uhh...you know..."bang the bishop". "Dig down deep for a dime". "Have a date with Rosy Palm and her five sisters". [Killing me]
..and when you become too bored to accomplish that, something is wrong.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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ArachnidinElmet
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quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
quote:
My vote for that is for Anne Rice D'Pseudonym's Sleeping Beauty series.

I have nothing against spanking, sub fantasies, or a healthy dose of erotica, but there are only so many adjectives you can go through to describe gushing bodily fluids before things get tedious. And sticky.

Welllllll, that's true but one doesn't read those books cover to cover for the literary content. One reads them to...uhh...you know..."bang the bishop". "Dig down deep for a dime". "Have a date with Rosy Palm and her five sisters". [Killing me]
They're not particularly good even as one-handed reading.

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough
quote:
I went to a charity store once, and made a quick survey of the used book shelves. There was a separate shelf for the kiddie books: picture books, Harry Potter, Little House on the Prairie and so on. And there on the lower shelf was Sleeping Beauty, by A.N. Roquelaire. The clerks clearly did not know what the work was about. I didn't feel equal to an explanation. I just moved the book from the kid section to the top shelf of the grown-ups' bookcase

I've done this once or twice with Laurell K Hamilton and Charlaine Harris in an Oxfam bookshop of my acquaintance. A member of staff clearly think they are Twilight-a-like tween vamp books and might get a bit of surprise if they opened one up!

[ 01. December 2014, 15:53: Message edited by: ArachnidinElmet ]

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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka

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Lord Jestocost
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I went to a charity store once, and made a quick survey of the used book shelves.

This was the very next line after The5thMary's post about Rosy Palm etc and I wish it hadn't been.
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Stetson
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5th Mary wrote:

quote:
Lourdes Kim, an Asian American Catholic?
Well, in my experience, Korean Catholics, when choosing "English" names for themselves, often tend to go with their baptismal names, which usually are derived from the saints.

Mind you, I don't know if "Lourdes", being technically the name of the place and not the saint, is ever used as a baptismal name. It does turn up as a given name, so it probably wouldn't be entirely implausible that a Korean-American would use it.

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Pancho
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"Lourdes" is a baptismal name, popular among Hispanic Catholics like other Marian names. I don't know if it's common among Korean Catholics

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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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mousethief

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I knew a woman from the Philippines named Lourdes. Very nice woman, too. A nurse.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Brenda Clough
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And there is always Madonna's daughter.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
I've never read any Anthony Trollope but if his writings are as ponderous and borrrrrrrrrrrrring as Howatch's writing, I'll just decline thanks.

You may not like Anthony Trollope if you do ever get round to reading him - as you're entitled not to! But just to say, I've yet to read any author who even approaches him for humanity, self-awareness, the irony of the human condition, and the clear-cut explanation of the complex feelings and behaviour of the simplest person.

He must have been capable of deeply understanding a great deal about human nature, even what he would've disagreed or disapproved of; and could write of it in a way which challenged the reader.

His characters are disconcertingly 3-D, his dialoguing authentic and sometimes surprizing; and his writing has an underlay of wry, understated humour which is, frankly, never comic, like Dickens, but somehow more natural and realistic. He is one of the few authors that I re-read often and still find myself challenged and entertained.

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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Dafyd
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Anthony Trollope is an interesting writer. Apart from Barchester Towers most of his novels are rather padded. He does tend to repeat himself from novel to novel. He doesn't have the edge or incisiveness of the great novels.

But I don't know of any other novelist, except perhaps Dostoyevsky, whose characters, even the ones he dislikes or is prejudiced against, suddenly come to life as real people in the way Trollope's do.
Also, at his best he's more morally subtle than any other English novelist of his time period. He's better at combining the two judgements: this is a morally wrong thing to do, with, the person doing it was tempted as we all are and we should not judge them harshly, in a way that is really tricky to pull off.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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ChaliceGirl
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I didn't read this whole thread but did anyone mention "The Great Gatsby"? The most boring waste of time I ever had. The only blessing is that it isn't too thick a book.

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SvitlanaV2
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I don't remember being wildly impressed with 'The Great Gatsby', though it wasn't unpleasant to read. I don't know why it's so famous, though. Did the subject matter capture a particular moment in American culture, or has the book's style or content been highly influential in some way?
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ChaliceGirl
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I have no clue either.

I watched the movie "The Great Gatsby" to see if maybe it would be better as a film.

No, it wasn't.

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The Episcopal Church Welcomed Me.

"Welcome home." ++Katharine Jefferts Schori to me on 29Mar2009.
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venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
They keep saying, "She's the Anthony Trollope of the twentieth century".

ie Susan Howatch. If anyone says that, either they've never read Trollope, or they've never read Howatch and probably neither.

Trollope wrote about clergy (in four of the Barchester Novels) but was totally uninterested in religion. (He wrote about politicians but was uninterested in politics.)

Howatch wrote with a conscious intention of religious apologia.

I was no great fan, but I remember Anglea Tilby prior to ordination being enthusiastic about Howatch at an Affirming Catholicism conference.

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Evangeline
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I think The Great Gatsby is beautiful to read, the prose is just perfect. I believe the feeling is that it did capture the Zeitgeist of 1920s America and that it is important because of what it says about the corruption of the American dream. It does seem to be a novel that people either love or hate.

[ 02. December 2014, 20:47: Message edited by: Evangeline ]

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
They keep saying, "She's the Anthony Trollope of the twentieth century".

ie Susan Howatch. If anyone says that, either they've never read Trollope, or they've never read Howatch and probably neither.

Trollope wrote about clergy (in four of the Barchester Novels) but was totally uninterested in religion. (He wrote about politicians but was uninterested in politics.)

Howatch wrote with a conscious intention of religious apologia.

I was no great fan, but I remember Anglea Tilby prior to ordination being enthusiastic about Howatch at an Affirming Catholicism conference.

That fits. Howatch was very popular in the sort of Diocese of Southwark Aff-Cathy circles which I moved on the fringes of 20-odd years ago.
Not sure that trollope was uninterested in politics. He did stand for Parliament, unsuccessfully, as a Liberal. But his political novels are political in that they are about politicians, rather than being about political issues.

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Curiosity killed ...

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Those Howatch books were odd. I read a few of them pretty much as they were published and they did capture something at the time, but I tried to pick one up a few years back and couldn't get into it at all.

Cross post - that also makes sense from the people I knew and attended churches with at the time.

I'll defend The Great Gatsby too.

[ 02. December 2014, 21:14: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

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Moo

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It is not true that Trollope was not interested in politics. His dream, which never came true, was to be in Parliament. This thread runs through the Palliser novels.

Moo

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline

I think The Great Gatsby is beautiful to read, the prose is just perfect. I believe the feeling is that it did capture the Zeitgeist of 1920s America and that it is important because of what it says about the corruption of the American dream. It does seem to be a novel that people either love or hate.

Ah, I see. I think it's the subject matter that doesn't really appeal to me, but I might try it again for the prose.

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Those Howatch books were odd. I read a few of them pretty much as they were published and they did capture something at the time, but I tried to pick one up a few years back and couldn't get into it at all.

I read one of them once. An interesting introduction to an aspect of English religion that I have no connection with. There's a more recent author called Michael Arditti who writes about a similar sort of Anglo-Catholic environment.

It was surprising to discover recently that Howatch is more popular in the USA than in the UK; I didn't realise that this sort of religious setting would travel very well. But there's more of a readership for 'religious' novels in the USA than in the UK.

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Albertus
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Oh, I'm not surprised that Howatch is popular in the USA, though it might not be the religion, as such, which makes them so: they are very English in a way that I'd imagine would appeal to the kind of Americans who like things like Downton Abbey, BBC classic serials, Rumpole, The Remains of the Day, and so on. (And I'm not being snooty about this: I liked the Howatch books when they came out, and like all the things I've listed, with the exception of Downton Abbey, which I've never seen.)

[ 03. December 2014, 09:35: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I was no great fan, but I remember Anglea Tilby prior to ordination being enthusiastic about Howatch at an Affirming Catholicism conference.

So did I - her domineering clergy were the sort that we Affcaths love to hate.

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Firenze

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I have been pratchettified to the point where I keep reading about the author Susan Hogwatch. I daresay she writes about the Unseen Church.
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Albertus
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[Killing me]
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:


quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Those Howatch books were odd. I read a few of them pretty much as they were published and they did capture something at the time, but I tried to pick one up a few years back and couldn't get into it at all.

I read one of them once. An interesting introduction to an aspect of English religion that I have no connection with. There's a more recent author called Michael Arditti who writes about a similar sort of Anglo-Catholic environment.
I wouldn't have thought Howatch's characters were particularly anglo-catholic. Though (for reasons expressed earlier) I have only read one of her books and tried to dismiss it from my mind. Her typical cleric seems to be a pompous self-obsessed establishment (or would-be establishment) figure. Probably 'high church' liturgically - the sort that likes dressing up in copes and parading in processions - but not any sort of anglo-catholic that I know of. Even less 'affirming catholic'; and as another who was involved in Aff Cath in the diocese of Southwark about 20 years ago I find that recommendation odd.

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SvitlanaV2
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Sorry - I read 'Aff-Cathy' in Albertus's post above and it became 'Anglo-Catholic' in my mind.

(These labels are all rather confusing for someone who's not an Anglican! As I said, though, Howatch's - and even Arditti's - fictional churches are rather exotic to me. The CofE churches I attend are very different.)

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I believe Howatch used to write romantic airport novels before her conversion. After her conversion she basically wrote romantic airport novels about clergy with added theology.
She therefore gets read by people who want to read romantic airport novels but needs added theology as an excuse.

(I couldn't possibly comment on whether I've read them.)

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I believe Howatch used to write romantic airport novels before her conversion. After her conversion she basically wrote romantic airport novels about clergy with added theology.
She therefore gets read by people who want to read romantic airport novels but needs added theology as an excuse.

(I couldn't possibly comment on whether I've read them.)

Women who dream of being ravished by Heathcliff, Rhett Butler or Darcy in a clerical collar.

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Albertus
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I think the last two posts are spot on, especially Dafyd's. They were a permissible way of reading slightly trashy and lurid and in its own terms quite enjoyable fiction.
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Sorry - I read 'Aff-Cathy' in Albertus's post above and it became 'Anglo-Catholic' in my mind.

(These labels are all rather confusing for someone who's not an Anglican! As I said, though, Howatch's - and even Arditti's - fictional churches are rather exotic to me. The CofE churches I attend are very different.)

That's quite understandable SvitlanaV2. These fine distinctions are puzzling enough even to Anglicans. 'Aff-Cathy' is indeed a type of Anglo-catholicism. My point was that I couldn't quite understand why anglo-catholics (affirming or otherwise) should rate Howatch so highly, and that I wouldn't have thought her ecclesiastical world had much in common with the A-C world. Arditti's does of course. And, in a very understated way, so does Barbara Pym. (Going off at a slight tangent, I always think of the TV series Rev as not dissimilar from Barbara Pym's churches, despite the social class and churchpersonship difference).
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I wouldn't have thought Howatch's characters were particularly anglo-catholic.

They are inasmuch as they behave like autocrats of the 'father knows best kind'. The most powerful are the weakest - spiritual directors and faith-healers who have massive mental breakdowns.

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Angloid
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OK, you are probably right. I don't intend to read any more of her books to confirm that though!
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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
My point was that I couldn't quite understand why anglo-catholics (affirming or otherwise) should rate Howatch so highly

Could it be that Howatch's novels are a bit camp?

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venbede
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I have to say that although I never hate books, Michael Arditi's get up my nose. In a sense I ought to like them - Christianity and gayness together - but I find them pretentious.

Patrick Gale's A Perfectly Good Man is far more interesting and moving.

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Timothy the Obscure

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quote:
Originally posted by Badger Lady:
Hardy. Dear God Hardy.

One short story I read under duress at school involved [IIRC(*)] a man was very very worried about a tree outside his window. So worried he took to his bed and was dying. His son arranged for tree to be cut down. Over many pages. Man wakes up, sees tree has gone. And dies of shock.

I hate Hardy. I've tried Tess and Jude but to no avail. I *like* Trollope; I can stomach Fanny Price; and, Dickens is great for loong train rides. But Hardy. [Mad]


(*) I may not recall correctly. It was some time ago.

I also tried Tess and Jude. I think I might have actually finished Jude, but I'm damned if I can recall anything about it after about a third in (except that everyone is miserable and dies, but with Hardy that's a foregone conclusion). I read just enough of Tess to realize that she was too stupid to live, and too unimaginative to die in an interesting way.

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