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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Help! I've got a teenager!
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Esmeralda
Ship's token UK Mennonite
# 582
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Posted
Don't know if there's been a thread on this before, but how do you get a teenage boy (year 12, with real exams in January) to do any school work at all without blowing up at you because you suggested it? He has Asperger's too so when he blows up it can be a really serious meltdown. All he does if you leave him alone is play on the computer all day.
I have a feeling he's having all the tantrums and rebellion he should have had at 13 or 14 but because his social development is behind, he's having them at 16 instead (he is also one of the youngest, if not *the* youngest, in his year).
Anyone got any experience of this or similar?
[ 14. December 2010, 10:39: Message edited by: Esmeralda ]
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I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand.
http://reversedstandard.wordpress.com/
Posts: 17415 | From: A small island nobody pays any attention to | Registered: Jun 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
My 16 year old's default position is to tell me about assorted ne'er-do-wells in his school who are smoking / drinking / writing off their mother's car etc and then say, in an aggrieved and incredulous tone "and you're nagging me over revision??"
I will watch this thread with interest.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
I've no direct experience as a parent, Esmeralda, but have taught teenagers with Aspergers. I recall how difficult it was to make some go over anything for a second time: as far as they were concerned, they had done the work, and so what was the point of doing it again. I guess revision falls into that category.
I'd get in touch with the school over this. Does he have learning support? Perhaps they or a class tutor could help him draw up a revision timetable that is realistic and manageable for him. Also, you could ask his subject teachers to set him actual assignments which have to be handed in after Christmas: for example, a couple of past papers to be completed, or an essay to write on a revision topic.
The trouble with revision is that it can look like a big unmanageable mass. Specific tasks - and someone at the school to hold him to account for their completion - might be more useful.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Esmeralda:
He has Asperger's too so when he blows up it can be a really serious meltdown. All he does if you leave him alone is play on the computer all day.
My guess is that the computer playing relaxes him - or, at least, doesn't stress him - while any thought of the school work pushes his stress levels way up.
It's been a long time since I was that age, but that is how I would feel in his situation. Not sure what to do - I am still learning how to manage my own emotions and stress levels ... but maybe learning relaxation???
Also, if he has any "executive function" issues, it may be extra difficult getting his brain into gear each day, so he plays games as something simpler and easier to handle. If so, he may need help planning - it can all look too overwhelming to start work. Helping him to break down down the work to bite-sized chunks that don't look so daunting may help.
These are wild guesses - each person with AS is different.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I wonder if he would be interested in discovering why revision is important and what effect if might have.
You could for instance set him a piece of work then ask him a set of questions immediately, wait 24 hours and ask him the same questions and finally ask him a week later. In between you keep the answers. When he has completed the questions a week later then show him the three sets of answers.
Next allow him to do the same with another piece of work but this time he goes through the work again before answering the questions. Again allow him to see his three responses, and then allow him to compare with what his previous go.
He should find that whereas the first set of responses deteriorate the second set improve.
The difference is that he has learnt this for himself.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
Same problem, minus the aspergers and plus a healthy dose of ADHD. It's a teenager thing. Deep breaths.
I agree that the video games are probably calming. You shut down all but the here-and-now brain response and you can avoid reality. Problem is that reality won't wait. And as parents it's our suckyass job to help them figure this out before reality kicks their asses.
I occasionally take and hide the power cord for the (triple cursed) game console.* i have also hidden the laptop under the mountain of clean laundry he had to fold. Only worked once, now he checks, but it worked great!
In short, I dont have a solution for you. Remind yourself that you're being a horrible bitch of a mother For His Own Good™ and try and discuss it when he's not flipping out. When he's throwing a tantrum it's pointless. But talk, just talk, when you both are even tempered. No judgement talk, stick to the "i want to raise you right, i need your help..." kind of language.
I also try to remind my son that if he doesnt get some good ol' book larnin' he'll not be able to afford to move out and he'll be stuck with me FOREVER! Mwahaha!
I have been known to go to the switchbox and cut the power to his room. Just saying.
What are his motivations? Because little comments like "girls stay away from boys who are ignorant and lazy and cant take care of themselves..." help in my case. The only thing The Boy digs more than denial-through-gaming is girls.
* i want it on the record, your honor, thst i banned the damned thibgs from my house. Which is why their pond axum sucking reprobate of a father bought them one.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
Effing edit window. Excuse all typos.
Another thing that works- my elder son takes his job as role model to the younger son seriously when reminded of it. If you have younger kids, neices and nephews, etc you can try that tactic.
And remember that with kids no tactic will work forever and be the ultimate solution. You will always have to keep changing up. Accept it. Took me years to get over feeling like a failure because none of my "solutions" lasted.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
We survived our son's teen years (He turns 30 ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) today) and he never gave us a moments trouble.
Selective memory is a wonderful thing. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
When I did AS levels, I revised by just reading the Letts revision guides (rather than going back over my previous work) - this was less boring than reading stuff I had already written, and quicker. And because you buy them by syllabus you know you are covering the right stuff.
Owing to a stuff-up at my FE college - they had left out part of the syllabus I needed, and in the exam I answered a question on it solely on the basis of the Letts guide. I got a decent result.
I may also be worth mentioning I revised for less than a week, for all my GCSEs and 6th form exams. Some people do well with extended periods of revision - my sister did - but it doesn't suit everyone. It may be that your son is better able to do a short burst than weeks and weeks.
Some letts stuff is also doable by computer which may be helpful.
(Life outcome, I have a doctorate and a professional job YMMV.)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Little Miss Methodist
Ship's Diplomat
# 1000
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Posted
I suspect that I was the teenager who couldn't be nagged into doing revision. I used to tell my parents that "if I stop getting good grades you can nag me, but whilst i'm getting straight A's, is it really an issue?". It wasn't and they left me to it. I always did my revision eventually, and that is still my pattern of working 15 years on.
It works differently with everyone, but it's possible that your teenager needs to be left to his own devices. These are his first exams at college, he'll have the chance to retake i'd imagine, and finding out for himself that "no work = crap results" is probably a good lesson to learn no matter how hard it might be for those who need to step back and watch him learn it!
The thing my mother used to find most disappointing about trying to get my sister to do her revision was that you couldn't do the revision for her. No matter how long my mother sat with her helping her to revise or helping with homework, my sister only took in exactly as much as she chose to. My mother would learn all about geography, but my sister would have been thinking about some tv program the entire time. There has to be motivation on the part of the student, otherwise time spent "revising" is time spent daydreaming with your work in front of you. Perhaps your son will get down to it in his own time when he is motivated enough to do so?
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Tell me where you learned the magic,
The spell you used the day you made me fall....
Posts: 1628 | From: Caretaker of the Overlook Hotel | Registered: Apr 2003
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
I agree with Little Miss Methodist about motivation. Having a specific goal that means something to the teen, and the motivation to get to that goal has made a difference in my two young-uns.
Not that I was able to motivate them. (Unless you count taking away privileges, or offering special treat and outings as motivation.)
Daughter-Unit (who has multiple learning disabilities) went to college right out of high school. She hated it. She had a 1.5 GPA at the end of one semester, and dropped out. Now, she has a goal, a specific job she wants to obtain. She's back in college, and even with the 1.5 from five years ago, her GPA is now almost 3.1.
I guess self-motivation is one key.
Good luck, Esmeralda!
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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morningstar
Shipmate
# 15860
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Posted
Chunking, time-tabling and structuring.
And most of what Comet sez as it will help you keep some sort of perspective.
Does he know how to check a fuse? If not, don't tell him ... yet; just remove the damned thing from the plug (even if you have to replace a moulded one first)!
Posts: 116 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2010
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
I seriously hated revision. When a friend came over to revise for my a-levels we made a drinking game out of it - and I hardly drank alcohol!
I discovered that I can only revise for about 10 minutes without giving up, so I made flash cards and at uni I revised for 10 mins between lectures, or while waiting for something, or between tv programs. It took me until uni to work out a way I could revise though. I hate going over stuff I've already done, so revision guides and past papers worked best as they were at least new. I am the sort of person who left exams early on the grounds that I had done the paper, and checking was pointless because I never spotted mistakes - if I had done a question my brain wouldn't admit that I could have done it wrong. The only point to going over a paper was to do things I had missed, but that was because I didn't know the answer and was also pointless. Hence finishing 3 hour exams in less than 2 hours during my degree.
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
My elder son thought that one day a week in the swot vac revision time was working hard for the exams. He did not do very well.
At 24 he decided to take up an associate degree and got two distinctions this year. Now he knows what he wants to do he wants to and does study hard.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
My youngest son was pretty much born with a cigar in his mouth and a beer in his hand, searching through any and all rule books to find any rules he had missed breaking and therefore had not checked off his list.
When he turned 11, he began to act like a teenager, and everything I recall after that is a dark, hollow space for the next few years.
Nothing, not a single word that either my wife or I spoke to him could make him pay attention to graduating high school.
He was interested in girls, video games, buddies, and experimentation with the nasty side.
Eventually, one day, in his second-last year of high school, he decided he wanted to become a chef.
He worked in a restaurant, worked really quite hard in shcool and raised his marks, graduated high school, then chef college, and now has his "dream job" on the other side of the continent.
I like to tell myself, now that he is no longer close by, that if I had it all to do over again, I would simply try to enjoy him, trust that he would one day find his way, and be easier on him and the whole family, including me.
But that's me fibbing to myself; if I had it to do over again, I would probably respond as asshole to asshole all over again.
Sorry, that's not very helpful, but it is the best I have!
Other than my prayers for you and your son.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Esmeralda, what does your son want to do? Does he know where he is going next and what the current entry requirements are? It's changing fast with tuition fee changes and universities reducing the numbers of students they are taking.
If the system works the way it did when my daughter went through it, he can resit AS level exams, so if he fails these ones or doesn't get the grades he needs there's a process for refusing those grades and resitting in June - but that might well give him 11 exams in June, not 6. There's also a limit to the number of times you can resit - and schools and colleges often don't allow people to go to the next year unless they've got a reasonable pass rate.
But those resits will show, and depending on whether he wants to do, that might make the difference between being accepted by a university or a training scheme or not, in the current climate.
My daughter is now in her 4th year of an MEng and I'm incredibly grateful that we managed to get her through now timed to avoid the worst of this one (and avoid the worst of what happened to her sixth form college). My colleague's son didn't get his grades to go to university this September - in fact only one student from his (private) sixth form did, and he is currently on a year out and applying with the grades he's got, but no-one is sure how university education is going to pan out in the next few years.
The incentive for your son may well be in what he needs to go where he wants to go and realising how tough it now is. But be careful, because that might be another reason he's switched off, he may have seen no-one get to university from his sixth form this summer and think there's no point.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
I don't think there's much you can do. If you have a reasonable home life and there is plenty of opportunity to revise, it's really up to the child to actually do it. We have tried all manner of things with our two. The older one was very successful academically and got into a very competitive degree course - only to crash out at the end of last academic year as he had changed his mind about his life plans. I'm just backing off there and letting him decide how to proceed - you can't control someone's life at 20, however stupid you think they're being!
The 17 year old is studying for A levels. He didn't do that well in his AS levels, and that's because he simply won't study to the depth and detail required. Nagging just stresses both of us out without adding an iota to what he is learning.
I agree with those who say it's all about motivation. If they really want to do it, they will. BC was really motivated to get onto his degree course, but when he stopped wanting to do it, it all fell apart. I can only hope he finds his true metier soon! As for SC, he doesn't have a clue what he wants, so motivation is very hard to find. I shall just have to keep praying!
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
Just to add - I'm a university lecturer at a new university. We are already oversubscribed for next year, and have raised our points considerably. The competition is incredible - which is nice for me as a lecturer (better, more motivated students) but very sad as a mother (dodgy AS results for SC may now be fatal to his chances!).
It's a very hard world out there at the moment. I do not envy the young.
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
I don't really understand your system over there at all so this may be off the mark. This conversation just has got me thinking.
My mother did everything right. Two bachelors degrees and a masters, taught at university before chucking it all to join the peace corps once I was out of the house. She then went on to work in many overseas countries as an education consultant, only to move home where she now runs a nonprofit that focuses on teaching about the environment. Many careers; great adventures.
My dad dropped out of high school to be a rodeo rider. Worked with pack mules, worked with the mustangs, became a dog musher, a career journalist and now author and columnist. Many careers; great adventures.
I dropped out of high school and went to college at age 16. was a model and a dancer for a short time; then a plant pathologist. Then a hunting guide; then a journalist. Now I tend a bar and use my spare time to act and sing. Next summer I'm finally getting paid to act. And I volunteer for a few nonprofits using my skills to help causes I'm passionate about. Many careers; great adventures.
My daughter went to college and is about to go back after taking a year to try out domesticity. My littlest is likely a college bound one also. My teenage son- I dont know. He has a good brain. He's curious and self-motivated but I dont really see him thriving in academia. I see him more backpacking through India or fixing bicycles in Spain or even kayaking Palau. He's unlikely to settle down and stagnate, and I suspect he'll be a lifelong learner and adventurer. Like me, like my family.
Some kids do well in the education system we have set up for them. Some don't. If they don't pass the necessary tests, if they wash out of college- that's not the end of the world. It may even be the beginning. What do you really want for your children? Academic success? Financial success? Working 9-5 and paying a mortgage in the burbs?
I want my kids to have adventures. I want them to collect stories. I want them to have moments that make them exilerated. Some are lit up by education, but others are not.
I guess- don't despair if your child bucks the trends. There is so much more to life than doing it right. if you teach them to value living, to put their face to the gale and laugh- they're going to do okay.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I was wondering if computers means so much to him if there was a way his work could be adapted to be done on the computer?
Do you think he might be able to forge a career in computing? Our elder son used to find computers a way of relaxing (ultimately to the exclusion of all other hobbies) and has now also made a career out of it, via a computer science degree.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I'm with comet on this. I was a boring nine-to-fiver (actually a 7-330er, but who cares?) for half of my working life. Then I started adventuring in the mid-eighties. By the mid-nineties I was all over the place, while still remaining a slog at work (I had to pay for the stuff somehow)
Now I'm retired, and still all over the place. I picked up a flyer and had a discussion about going up in a balloon next summer. That was yesterday. Now that my next excursion is planned, I am starting to think of 2012.
I wish that I had had enough confidence now to deal with alternate jobs or many careers. But I had other issues to deal with and many battles to fight. I still do, but I deal with them on the side now, because no-one can take my pension away.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
Actually, I'm really in agreement with Comet and PeteC. It's one of the reasons I'm not on BC's back to get himself straightened out. If he wants to grow his hair long, drop out and live simply, I should be glad about that - I didn't bring him up to be a conformist anyway. It's just that I do worry. What if he's thrown away a winning ticket in life's lottery? What if he never finds out what fulfills him? I know - I should have more faith!
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
You give a kid the best training you can. What he does with it when he is an adult is up to him. What seems like a disaster to you might be a source of great comfort to him. Kids have to be flexible job-wise these days. I don't think I would be able to cope with it, and am very glad I am firmly on the retirement career track.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Get over it. It's his life, not yours.
You are not in duty bound to bankroll him/her past the age of majority.
As regards majority, the vast majority turn out OK. Remember your kid is made in God's likeness , not yours.
m (been there done that with vile teenagers-and survived)
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
Now that my youngest, though still a teen and still in college, is 18 years old, I have actually had the cynical thought that at least now I'm not responsible for him. Not more than love/family/compassion/Christian reasons make me responsible for him, of course -- but it's no longer for me to train him.
All of my kids are brilliant people -- beautiful in a scary way, likely to take over the world as soon as they get around to it -- but they haven't been on the typical/standard track in life...
Well, I was gonna say they'd all branched out doing things their own way as they entered young adulthood, but that's not completely true. They've been out-of-the-box off-the-wall people all their young lives.
Is it maybe a different thing, when your child has been one who benefited greatly from a traditionally structured, regular, supportively-framed upbringing, as far as education and discipline, etc.?
Am I "seeing" correctly, that a successful education/childhood for a kid with AS, or ADD/ADHD, learning difficulties, etc., would automatically include regularity and structure and consistency in all things? Or is that too cookie-cutter a way to look at it?
Looking back over my children's childhood years, bless their hearts, the only wide-open constants in their lives were their parents' continually less-than-perfect parenting. Well, that and love. But you know what I mean.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
There is a poem by Anne Ridler about a parent's expectations during pregnancy and when the child is a newborn. It ends with the lines
May she grow to her right powers
Unperturbed by passion of ours
We don't know what our children have the ability to become.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Our youngest is now 14 (school year 10) so he gets time off for revision but at the moment he doesn't revise much, or spend much time on assignment/homework.
Mrs Sioni and I find it hard to criticise as we were pretty idle at that age, so we rely on his siblings (especially eldest, who is a trained secondary school teacher with a job as of today!) to 'mention' things. Words from siblings & role models have had more effect on our very mixed gang of five, although I realise that anyone with Asperger's could have relational issues too.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
I jumped straight from being childless to having teenagers, and had to develop a strategy quickly. I realized that the role of a parent was to ensure that their children survived the process of growing up: too little attention and they might not survive, too much attention and they never complete the process. It seems to have worked - perhaps not as well as I might have liked, but as well as I might expect given the other influences in their lives.
But I was also the oddball, taking a year off in the middle of Uni because I wasn't motivated, and coming back wanting to learn everything there was to know. Quitting a well-paying job in my profession to spend a couple years having adventures in other parts of the world. Even sitting at my desk now I believe that has made a significant contribution to my being a trusted and capable employee, though I can't say exactly how. Perhaps because once you have braved the rain, snow, heat, loneliness, physical challenges and personal demons and overcome them, how much more difficult can it be to resolve an accounting problem or develop a new procedure?
quote:
Comet wrote:
...put their face to the gale and laugh...
Exactly!
Carex checks the weather forecast to see when the next gale is due...
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
However there are always exceptions to the rule:
Bright maths students are nearly always lazy even when they don't appear to be. Yes I as a teenager pulled the wool over a huge number of people's eyes. Yes I got the work in on time and it was nearly always over 80%, that did not mean I was working hard. It also means that when you hit an understanding wall your marks plummet and you don't have the skills to do the things you need to do.
Somethings need saying. Maths revision is not like history revision, its more like practising a musical instrument. You rarely need to remember facts an occasional formula is useful (it stops you having to look it up) but revision is done by practising doing a set type of questions.
The wall is when you have not grasped a new technique or method of thinking. It could mean a mismatch in mathematical approaches between student and teacher, it could be over confidence on the part of pupil. There are two ways through and it is normally a combination of the two. First one is to find a fresh explanation, e.g. from a different text book and work through that. The second way is to do lots and lots of examples. Between the two there normally comes a point when you think "Oh that's it!" From then on questions are easy and really should be included in a daily workout.
So what I would do for revision for maths exam today is get hold of another text book (not revision text you want all the levels of questions that are given in text books) and work through the questions in that rather than get a revision book. However if he likes computers then sites like this could well help.
If son is really into computing he could get a set of text books, cull questions from them on all the topics covered by his course, put them into a database and get it to randomly select three at a time for him to work out. If he wants he could develop a score for difficulty so allowing him to have 2 easy one and one harder one. Then he just needs to do it every day.
Jengie
[ 15. December 2010, 18:04: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Bright maths students are nearly always lazy even when they don't appear to be. Yes I as a teenager pulled the wool over a huge number of people's eyes. Yes I got the work in on time and it was nearly always over 80%, that did not mean I was working hard. It also means that when you hit an understanding wall your marks plummet and you don't have the skills to do the things you need to do.
My best friend at university went on to get a first in maths. However, in her first year she had a real crisis of confidence. I found her sitting over her work in tears, saying 'I can't do this!' On further investigation, I discovered that up until that moment there had never been a maths problem she couldn't do immediately. She had literally no idea how to 'work at' maths!
It ended up with the ludicrous situation of me trying to teach her how you worked out a maths problem that you couldn't see how to do - a situation that I had encountered every day up to O level maths, when I gladly gave it up!
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
There is a poem by Anne Ridler about a parent's expectations during pregnancy and when the child is a newborn. It ends with the lines
May she grow to her right powers
Unperturbed by passion of ours
We don't know what our children have the ability to become.
Kahlil Gibran also has pertinent things to say about a similar theme.
There's a lot to be said for spending the first ten years of a child's life bringing them up and the next ten enabling them to become independent. People in Britain, at least, have regularly been good at the first part, but have increasingly neglected the second.
[ 16. December 2010, 01:29: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There's a lot to be said for spending the first ten years of a child's life bringing them up and the next ten enabling them to become independent. People in Britain, at least, have regularly been good at the first part, but have increasingly neglected the second.
My husband and I used to say that parents have twenty years to make themselves superfluous.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I know what you mean. While we had our share of growling and so forth while Dlet was 14,15 and 16, things got a lot better at 17. Now he's 18, we're probably through the rebarbatif stage.
And he being of now legal age and with exams finished is trying all sorts of alcoholic drinks, visiting pubs and bars for the novelty of it and so forth. But only drunk once so far. And he is not on any other drugs, nor is likely to be. The same goes for his mates and the young ladies in their group.
Since hes finished his HSC, he's also gone off to visit Madame's mother and my father at least once a week, taken them to coffee and so forth, without being asked; perhaps showing off his red P plates has something to do with it. He even took my father to the local Uniting Church service last Sunday morning. The end of the tunnel looks behind us now.
[ 16. December 2010, 08:39: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Esmeralda
Ship's token UK Mennonite
# 582
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Posted
Thanks for all the support, advice and wisdom, folks. Measures like him using a laptop at school (his handwriting is so bad he can't read it himself), and making a revision schedule with a bit each day, have already been tried - in fact he had just made himself a good work schedule for the holidays to catch up on coursework and revision.
However, things have moved on since I posted, which is why I forgot to go back to this thread. Genius Brat came home on Tuesday and got in a real state, saying things like 'what's the point of life?' and 'what's it all for?'. Turns out he was not really coping with any of his subjects, was way behind with coursework and assignments and hadn't done any of the maths past papers he'd been given - in fact he'd stopped turning up to maths lessons.
I got very upset about all this, not so much because he is failing school, but because he seemed so negative. In fact after blurting it all out he suddenly went all tearful and said, 'I'm so happy, I'm crying with happiness' which made me worry a lot about his mental health.
Anyway when we all calmed down we agreed that hubby would go with him to his appointment which he already had with the form tutor next day (I couldn't go as I had a therapist appointment). Form tutor was very helpful and said he could take the rest of the term off (2 days!) and she would arrange a meeting in the new year with him, us, and the two heads of sixth form.
It looks likely that he will take a year off (he is only just turned 16 in August so very young for sixth form anyway) and then either go back to the school or start studying in some other context. He seems much less grouchy now! (though very tired).
I do know that not everything depends on school, or even on academic achievements, but teachers manage to make you think it does. Also he is a very bright child who's on the 'gifted and talented' list, and got an A* and four more As in his GCSEs, without even doing any work. So it seems a shame for him not to use his intellectual talents. OTOH his dad has a Cambridge engineering degree and works as a plumber and gas fitter, and I have an Oxford English degree and work very part time at very minor writing and earn less than £3,000 a year. So go figure.
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I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand.
http://reversedstandard.wordpress.com/
Posts: 17415 | From: A small island nobody pays any attention to | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I've heard of quite a few youngsters who get burnout during AS year and need to take time out. I never remember that happening a generation ago (although many never actually made it as far as the 6th form). Some of the cause surely must be the relentless pressure to succeed - with regular exams plus coursework - from year 10 onwards, if not before. The traditional first term of 6th form being a chance to ease oneself into a new way of working towards A levels just doesn't happen now, as the first exams are immediately after Christmas.
Perhaps a slower start to study post-GCSE, combined with the opportunity to do voluntary service or outdoor pursuits would be a kinder way of pacing our young people? Why does it all have to be such a race?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
...Why does it all have to be such a race?
In the UK since at least the early 80s education has been deliberately geared to the needs of industry and commerce - Baker, the National Curriculum, etc. The syllabus is now controlled by politicians rather than educationalists - and the politicians are controlled by ????
They should be controlled by us, the voters, but they're not.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Perhaps a slower start to study post-GCSE, combined with the opportunity to do voluntary service or outdoor pursuits would be a kinder way of pacing our young people? Why does it all have to be such a race?
My elder son did the International Baccalaureate, where there were no exams at the end of year 12 and lots of opportunity - indeed requirement - to do extra-curricular stuff. However, the school have now imposed their own mock exams in year 12 and won't let students proceed without a minimum pass level. In other words, they are determined to keep piling on the pressure!
Now that BC's dropped out of uni, I'm asking myself if we pressured him too much - I never thought he was pressured, but seemed to have a meltdown in year 2 of uni, asking himself why he was doing all this. I honestly think he just wants to drop out and go a different way now - refusing to join in this mad race for qualifications and a pressured way of life. Since I'm at dropping point myself at the moment, I'm beginning to think he's right!
Like Esmerelda and husband, we're both Oxbridge graduates, and all it seems to be bringing us right now is incredibly pressured lifestyles and, ironically, threats of redundancy! We're both, apparently, working very hard at jobs that may not even be needed enough to exist in a few months' time. How mad is that?
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I've heard of quite a few youngsters who get burnout during AS year and need to take time out. I never remember that happening a generation ago (although many never actually made it as far as the 6th form). Some of the cause surely must be the relentless pressure to succeed - with regular exams plus coursework - from year 10 onwards, if not before. The traditional first term of 6th form being a chance to ease oneself into a new way of working towards A levels just doesn't happen now, as the first exams are immediately after Christmas.
Perhaps a slower start to study post-GCSE, combined with the opportunity to do voluntary service or outdoor pursuits would be a kinder way of pacing our young people? Why does it all have to be such a race?
When did the concept of the "AS year" come in? It is not something I did 20 years ago; my whole Lower 6th was about learning to work more independently and to construct arguments rather than regurgitate facts. It was probably the most enjoyable year of all my time at school - certainly secondary school.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
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Posted
Esmeralda, I was your in your son's position, but way back in about 1978 and I know education has changed beyond recognition since my day. But it does sound as if your son has got school scarily out of control, and a break from school work and routine might be what he needs. Is it normal for him to get very tired when he's been stressed out? That would be normal for me even now, and it was more pronounced when I was younger - at his age I would sometimes go to sleep for 15+ hours on a Friday evening and then feel more able to cope.
I got respectable GCSEs without ever learning how to revise or picking up any exam technique, and I too suffered a setback at the beginning of sixth form. I suddenly found that I couldn't just get by with flicking through the textbook the night before a test to remind myself, and I didn't know any other way of doing things. I did get to grips with the different style of work required for A level after a while, but I remember it being difficult. Unhappily though I never did learn how to revise, nor acquire any exam technique, so I didn't get terribly good A levels, and had similar problems at university and later at law college (coursework fine, but scraped through exams).
I think it would have helped me in those days if I could have been made to understand that preparing for, and taking tests is actually a discipline, that you can learn how to do that more effectively in much the same way that you learn the specific subjects you are studying. I'm not sure anyone could have made me understand this at the time, admittedly, but I would have found sixth form and university a bit easier if that had been possible.
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
When did the concept of the "AS year" come in? It is not something I did 20 years ago; my whole Lower 6th was about learning to work more independently and to construct arguments rather than regurgitate facts. It was probably the most enjoyable year of all my time at school - certainly secondary school.
Well believe it or not, its closer on thirty years since I did my A'levels and yes I took two AS Levels or AOs as they were then called.
However about seven years ago the idea came that to broaden sixth form, in the first year people would take up to 5 subjects and sit AS levels at the end, then they would choose the 3 subjects for A Levels so not having to specialise so early.
This is somewhat different to the 2 AOs and the 5 A'Levels I did. AOs were very much optional, indeed the reason they were available in Maths was actually because a number of schools allowed the brightest pupils to sit them at the time of ordinary O'Levels having sat normal Maths O'Level up to a year early (or on the resits). The brightest students were easily up to this (with very little coaching I could have sat Maths O'Level up to two years early without difficulty) and it eased A'Level where it is normal even then for such students to do 4 A'Levels two of them being double maths.
Jengie
[ 16. December 2010, 21:33: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Little Miss Methodist
Ship's Diplomat
# 1000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pottage:
I got respectable GCSEs without ever learning how to revise or picking up any exam technique, and I too suffered a setback at the beginning of sixth form. I suddenly found that I couldn't just get by with flicking through the textbook the night before a test to remind myself, and I didn't know any other way of doing things. I did get to grips with the different style of work required for A level after a while, but I remember it being difficult. Unhappily though I never did learn how to revise, nor acquire any exam technique, so I didn't get terribly good A levels, and had similar problems at university and later at law college (coursework fine, but scraped through exams).
I had an almoist identical experience to yours and the various issues that Jengie and Moth mentioned. I sailed through GCSE's - I worked hard on my coursework but didn't need to work anywher near as hard in order to pass exams. Similar story with A Levels. I could also rely on my (eidectic) memory because I could read things off the pages of my text book in my head, so even if I couldn't understand it, I could recall it.
I arrived at University without ever having been really tested at anything I did, only to find that reading through my notes the night before was no longer an option and I simply didn't have any further strategy for revision (or, it has to be said, the discipline to do so!). The volume of information I was required to be able to use meant that my memory was no longer as useful as it had once been as well. I passed my degree, but not as well as my previous academic qualifications and general intelligence would suggest that I should.
I have no regrets about that, as things have worked out pretty well for me anyway, but it is a particular challenge that seems to affect bright students who (relatively) sail through their earlier exams.
Interestingly my sister who got comporable results to me but had to work really really hard to do so, got a first at University partly (I suspect) because she had really learned how to study and revise earlier in life.
I am currently contemplating a return to academia as I follow my vocation through, and the idea of going back to a university style learning environment scares the living crap out of me.
Esmeralda, i'm pleased that you and your son have found what seems like a workable solution to his concerns. I generally feel that experiencing the real world (even through working on the checkouts in Tesco for a year) can do wonders for young people and I hope that it is a really positive experience for your son.
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Tell me where you learned the magic,
The spell you used the day you made me fall....
Posts: 1628 | From: Caretaker of the Overlook Hotel | Registered: Apr 2003
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Rant alert//
16 year old off school with a snow day. The school has provided him with a day's work. Which he assures me he is going to do. Except he hasn't actually started yet and it's 5pm. I could cheerfully throttle him.
//End rant.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
I made it all the way to a first at Uni without really learning to revise. I always hated it and never really saw the point. That's the one thing I don't get about Hermione -- she's always stressed about revising whereas I would have thought she wouldn't need to!
I really struggled with the discipline of finishing a PhD though I got there in the end!
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
I hope I didn't create a red herring when I referred to "AS" in my early response to Esmeralda's post.
I meant "Asperger's Syndrome", not "AS Levels" - I have no idea about UK education levels. I post on a board for people with Asperger's syndrome, and AS is the standard abbreviation there for the syndrome. I just used the same abbreviation here without thinking.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Not to worry, MSHB - I referred to AS levels because Esmeralda said her son was 16, the age at which people in Britain enter the first stage of the 6th form (now called Year 12), at the end of which they take AS levels, the half-way stage to a full A level. This has led to more exam pressure, especially as they are broken down into modules which means exams in each January and June as well as continuous coursework.
I guess the clue as to whether each poster is referring to AS = Asperger's or AS = exams is in the context. I'd never noticed before that they have the same acronym.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
...and due to a fascinating family genetic history, i read "AS" as Ankylosing Spondylitis.
See? We're learning from eachother.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
AnkSpond over here...
# 3 has finally finished an environmental sciences degree ( 5 subjects in last semester) which she originally started in 2006 ( 2 years after completing high school), with much stopping and starting along the way. She has been earning her living in hospitality since she finished high school at 17, and says she'd rather work in a coal mine ( which is where they all seem to work) then ever work in hospitality again.
We'll see about that....
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I had no clue either - and I am British! Here in the Scottish part of Britain my 16 year old is in 5th year, taking his Highers. (Primary School = Primaries 1 to 7, then Secondary School = 1st to 6th year. No such thing as a 6th form college) Pupils take Standard Grades and /or Intermediates in 4th year, Highers and/or Intermediates in 5th year, and a mix of Advanced Highers / Highers / Standard Grades and Intermediates in 6th year.
(Standard Grades / Highers = academic, Intermediates =vocational )
Despite the system being different, and exams kicking in later (son didn't sit an exam that mattered till he was 15 3/4, although he is one of the oldest in his year) the problems of encouraging revision / steady application etc are exactly the same.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
To Little Miss Methodist
I am a returnee to academia and even then I am part time because this time around I have to pay.
I can remember talking to a friend who returned about the same time as me, in her case for ministerial training. I have also talked to quite a few other returnees.
Firstly self doubts are normal. Even the brightest amongst us is uncertain of how we will cope with academia again. Particularly as most of us have done a discipline change.
Secondly we actually learn an awful lot while not in academia about time management and getting things done. This makes a huge difference to how we approach things. For instance I was quite prepared second time around to get books on how to study and to work through them. This jumped my essay marks by between 20% and 30%.
Thirdly I suspect it is wrong to assume that people stop mentally maturing about 21 or 22; from my experience I can do things now I could not do then, yes there are something I can't do but I actually suspect that if I had gone to University ten years later in certain subjects I would have got a much higher grade.
Fourthly the course will be different to what you experienced at University. I would say Universities will have changed but I know that different Universities function differently. For instance OU require referencing in all work, Birmingham only in assessed work.
Jengie
[ 18. December 2010, 08:53: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Just to add I still don't do well in written exams (one of the reasons I did Maths), there are three combining factors for this:
- I am physically a slow writer and write very much slower than I think.
- I have some sort of written language difficulty, today I would probably be tested at school, even back then (early 1980s) at least one teacher thought it should really be investigated
- I have anxiety related problems, these exacerbate the second difficulty .
So basically I can know it, but not produce it in exam conditions. However I was always happy just to pass an exam.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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