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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Don't want to be groped? Get beaten up instead. (Page 1)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Don't want to be groped? Get beaten up instead.
The Phantom Flan Flinger
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Woman beaten up at Notting Hill carnival

Apparently, telling a stranger not to grope your arse is asking for a beating.

Hell is too good for the cretin, or for anyone else who thinks this is acceptable.

This has made me so angry.

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Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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Of course we don't have a rape culture in this country.

I think I do understand some of the reasons that men do this sort of thing. That is not to justify it - he deserves jail, scumbag.

And it is really her fault for having an arse. She should have had it removed if she didn't want it groped.

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And it is really her fault for having an arse. She should have had it removed if she didn't want it groped.

There is an operation to remove arses?

DONATIONS PLEASE, DONATIONS PLEASE! All cheques made payable to the "Save Schrodinger's Cat appeal." He won't survive much longer attached to so much arse.

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Bishops Finger
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Sadly.....a member of our congregation (who, I must say, has been convicted of offences against young women - adults, not children - and who is now on the Sex Offenders Register), today commiserated with me in our local community centre café, that I had not noticed that a young woman in charge of a group of Down's Syndrome adults had had to brush against me with her 'nice soft bum' (his words) as she placed orders at the café counter.

Who is at fault? Me, for not noticing an attractive young lady, or him, for pointing it out?

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Invictus_88
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The article says nothing about the man involved, which is unusual. There would usually be a line or two about his being due to appear in court. Surely he didn't get away? Such a crowded area, you'd expect the culprit to be known.
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Ariel
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# 58

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He did get away but the Met are going through the CCTV footage from the carnival.
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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Sadly.....a member of our congregation (who, I must say, has been convicted of offences against young women - adults, not children - and who is now on the Sex Offenders Register), today commiserated with me in our local community centre café, that I had not noticed that a young woman in charge of a group of Down's Syndrome adults had had to brush against me with her 'nice soft bum' (his words) as she placed orders at the café counter.

Who is at fault? Me, for not noticing an attractive young lady, or him, for pointing it out?

Ian J.

In my view, he should be called up short for even saying this. Was he thinking something offending-related behind or in addition to his inappropriate comment? We don't know, but because of past behaviour and thus current risk, it is absolutely not okay for him to say it. I would tend to forgive you for not saying anything, because it is startling to have such comments made and to be ready to say something right then. But he should be hauled up short and made to feel uncomfortable about his comment and that it was not okay.

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deano
princess
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I don't understand the phrase "rape culture".

I do understand a sex offender and misogynist who needs locking up though.

Let's focus on catching and punishing the twat who did this and less on the generalisation and stereotyping eh? 99.999% of men in the UK wouldn't do anything like this.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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RuthW

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
99.999% of men in the UK wouldn't do anything like this.

#NotAllMen

[Roll Eyes]

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Sioni Sais
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Don't worry deano, I'm sure someone who knows the terminology and the numbers will be along to enlighten you very soon.

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(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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deano
princess
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Righty-oh. Ta.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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saysay

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So, wait.

She was at a carnival. In a crowd. With presumably any number of men.

She told someone to stop grabbing her ass. When he did it again she shoved him away.

He got angry and tried to punch her.

I'm with you so far. I can even understand how he might have gotten as far as punching her without anyone being able to step in.

But he punched her hard enough to leave her face looking like that.

And the men in the crowd didn't start beating him up or at least restrain him until the cops got there?

Your culture really is different.

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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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Have you ever been to a Carnival? It's noisy, crowded, people are dancing, singing, everyone's looking at the parade. In all that din and jostling, do you suppose it's easy to spot a particular interaction between two people? Even when it turns into an assault there is an interval of shock and confusion while people process what is happening. During which I do not suppose the perpetrator stood around waiting.

See that horse you're on? It's too high for you.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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Additionally to what Firenze said, I'd have thought that most of the people who did notice it happening would probably have been focusing on whether she was alright, rather than attempting to apprehend the thug.

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The Phantom Flan Flinger
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Not to mention that it all probably happened quickly - maybe a couple of minutes at the most.

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Matt Black

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Sadly.....a member of our congregation (who, I must say, has been convicted of offences against young women - adults, not children - and who is now on the Sex Offenders Register), today commiserated with me in our local community centre café, that I had not noticed that a young woman in charge of a group of Down's Syndrome adults had had to brush against me with her 'nice soft bum' (his words) as she placed orders at the café counter.

Who is at fault? Me, for not noticing an attractive young lady, or him, for pointing it out?

Ian J.

In my view, he should be called up short for even saying this. Was he thinking something offending-related behind or in addition to his inappropriate comment? We don't know, but because of past behaviour and thus current risk, it is absolutely not okay for him to say it. I would tend to forgive you for not saying anything, because it is startling to have such comments made and to be ready to say something right then. But he should be hauled up short and made to feel uncomfortable about his comment and that it was not okay.
Yep: anything else reinforces the whole harassment-is-OK/ rape culture (which does exist, Deano).

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deano
princess
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yep: anything else reinforces the whole harassment-is-OK/ rape culture (which does exist, Deano).

Then please explain what it is, because so far nobody has. Which leads me to suspect it is bollocks.

But I'm willing to be persuaded.

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The Phantom Flan Flinger
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Examples of rape culture

There ya go.....

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Have you ever been to a Carnival? It's noisy, crowded, people are dancing, singing, everyone's looking at the parade. In all that din and jostling, do you suppose it's easy to spot a particular interaction between two people? Even when it turns into an assault there is an interval of shock and confusion while people process what is happening. During which I do not suppose the perpetrator stood around waiting.

See that horse you're on? It's too high for you.

And by the way, how do we know that noone tried to intervene? The article just never told that part of the story.

For that matter, how do we know that Bishop's Finger didn't respond to his creepy friend? Although I. for one wouldn't fault him for being too thunderstruck to form a response. We all wish we had the perfect comeback the next day.

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Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
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Bishops Finger
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I was indeed somewhat discombobulated by my creepy companion......it took a few seconds for what he said to register, by which time the moment for a quick riposte was gone. But it won't happen again.

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Have you ever been to a Carnival? It's noisy, crowded, people are dancing, singing, everyone's looking at the parade. In all that din and jostling, do you suppose it's easy to spot a particular interaction between two people? Even when it turns into an assault there is an interval of shock and confusion while people process what is happening. During which I do not suppose the perpetrator stood around waiting.

See that horse you're on? It's too high for you.

I used to go to that carnival every year, and in places, the crowd is so dense, a couple could undress and make-a the dupree, and nobody would notice. That's why it used to be a pickpocket's dream, until everybody realized it, and stopped taking wallets and so on. So saying people in the crowd should have done X is farcical, and just shows lack of local knowledge.

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Alex Cockell

Ship’s penguin
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You're looking at about 60000 people or thereabouts in a tiny section of London Zone 1 - they even set up specific flows that make certain Tube stations entry-only or exit-only.

Basically - if you're not going to NHC - you stay the hell away... cos it's a nightmare otherwise.

We're talking small roads with terraced buildings as well.... VERY densely packed..

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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If the sun shines, you're talking a million people over a week-end.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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quetzalcoatl
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These photos are mainly of partly clothed dancers, I wonder why, but if you scroll down, you will get to some street scenes, showing the complete jam that you get, in fact, it can get really unpleasant.

http://tinyurl.com/mkapawj

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Alex Cockell

Ship’s penguin
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
These photos are mainly of partly clothed dancers, I wonder why, but if you scroll down, you will get to some street scenes, showing the complete jam that you get, in fact, it can get really unpleasant.

http://tinyurl.com/mkapawj

Notting Hill was the original Afro-Caribbean and Jamaican enclave when the Windrush landed in the 50s. So it was jamaican Carnival culture...

Calypso etc..

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The Phantom Flan Flinger
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
a couple could undress and make-a the dupree,

Do they have to be cousins?

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:

Your culture really is different.

It's repressed .

Which is why your culture ,( US ?), can sometimes feel like a blast of fresh cool air to the average Brit.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:

Your culture really is different.

It's repressed .

Which is why your culture ,( US ?), can sometimes feel like a blast of fresh cool air to the average Brit.

That's a personal view: I'd disagree on both counts. UK culture is no longer repressed. Infact we have begun to over emotionalise our response to certain things to the point of near emotional incontinence. You can track it back to the death of one Diana Windsor
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rolyn
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# 16840

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Fair enough EM .

If the Queen of Hearts has so made the British-stiff upper-lip a thing of the past, maybe it's time we started thinking like US culture.

AIUI it is sensible in some parts of America to carry 'mugging money'. That is, in the event of being confronted by a mugger, you hand over a sum ,(£20 or £30) , in the hope that you escape without serious injury or worse.
Re. groping incident my advice to anyone in that situation would be to not remonstrate with the gropper but simply move right away. In a tightly crowded setting you're unlikely to be pursued.

And before I get rotten tomatoes thrown at me for comparing a sexual assault to being robbed of money, let me just say I would much rather this moron could been tasered in the balls before delivering his, what could quite easily have been fatal, punch.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Fair enough EM .

If the Queen of Hearts has so made the British-stiff upper-lip a thing of the past, maybe it's time we started thinking like US culture.

Maybe it's time we invited the US to think like us.
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
1. AIUI it is sensible in some parts of America to carry 'mugging money'. That is, in the event of being confronted by a mugger, you hand over a sum ,(£20 or £30) , in the hope that you escape without serious injury or worse.

2. Re. groping incident my advice to anyone in that situation would be to not remonstrate with the gropper but simply move right away. In a tightly crowded setting you're unlikely to be pursued.

No way. Always but always fight back. You have the advantage that the mugger assumes you will just give in. Get close in and it reduces their ability to swing and harm you.

As regards the roping well, it happened to my teenage daughter in Greece. She turned round got the guy by the throat and "threatened to punch his lights out". He ran off at speed. She was 13 at the time.

2.

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rolyn
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# 16840

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Well yeah , like meet in the middle sort of thing.

With the hope that all their guns sink to the bottom of the Atlantic while we're about it.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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rolyn
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<apologies for the X posting>

Well done to your 13 yr old daughter .

Don't get me wrong I've no wish to deter the have-a-go-hero , just because I doubt if I'd be one in an adverse situation.

There is that thing though of being a dead hero as opposed to an alive coward.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
quetzalcoatl: If the sun shines, you're talking a million people over a week-end.
A leasurely small-group gathering, compared to Carnival in Brazil.

quote:
rolyn: AIUI it is sensible in some parts of America to carry 'mugging money'. That is, in the event of being confronted by a mugger, you hand over a sum ,(£20 or £30) , in the hope that you escape without serious injury or worse.
I do this in Brazil too.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Well yeah , like meet in the middle sort of thing.

Certainly not. That's far too conciliatory.
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quetzalcoatl
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My son was mugged about 5 times, when he was a teen, always for his phone, and he very wisely handed it over each time. Too many knives about in London.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Horatio Harumph
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# 10855

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on Rape Culture - this is quite lengthy but good

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/The-culture-of-rape-Myths-misconceptions-and-reality-273285621.html?device=mobile

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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quote:
ExclamationMark: As regards the roping well, it happened to my teenage daughter in Greece. She turned round got the guy by the throat and "threatened to punch his lights out". He ran off at speed. She was 13 at the time.
If this were in Brazil, she would be dead.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
That's a personal view: I'd disagree on both counts. UK culture is no longer repressed.

Um, I disagree. It might be accurate to say less repressed, but no longer repressed? I disagree.
And it is important to remember that neither the UK not the US are mono-cultural, even if recent immigrants are factored out. And there is still a difference, both sides of the pond, in the repression level across the class divides.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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The Phantom Flan Flinger
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quote:
Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:
on Rape Culture - this is quite lengthy but good

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/The-culture-of-rape-Myths-misconceptions-and-reality-273285621.html?device=mobile

Whilst I agree with most of that article, I take issue with the line:

quote:
"There have been good studies going back more than a decade that suggest while false reports happen, the number is between two per cent and eight per cent — and eight per cent is generous. It’s five per cent at most. It’s not a significant problem."
(emphasis mine).

I agree that it's not statistically significant, but its certainly a significant problem for people who are falsley accused, and it's also a significant problem for people whose reports are not believed because of the "not significant" number of false reports.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Whilst I agree with most of that article, I take issue with the line:

quote:
"There have been good studies going back more than a decade that suggest while false reports happen, the number is between two per cent and eight per cent — and eight per cent is generous. It’s five per cent at most. It’s not a significant problem."
(emphasis mine).

I agree that it's not statistically significant, but its certainly a significant problem for people who are falsley accused, and it's also a significant problem for people whose reports are not believed because of the "not significant" number of false reports.

IIRC 5% is very close to the conviction rate for rape. That's 90+% of rape victimes getting no justice.

[ 02. September 2014, 07:41: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Phantom Flan Flinger
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# 8891

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
IIRC 5% is very close to the conviction rate for rape. That's 90+% of rape victimes getting no justice.

Which I agree is completely unacceptable.

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Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
IIRC 5% is very close to the conviction rate for rape. That's 90+% of rape victimes getting no justice.

Which I agree is completely unacceptable.
Oh Dear what awful logic, shame on you.

To be clear; rape convictions are too weak, not enough women come forward in the first place and it is a blight on our society.

However some of the 90% taken to court and not convicted were therefore found innocent. Some for perfectly lawful reasons. I know it's Hell but you just make yourself look stupid writing stuff like that.

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
ExclamationMark: As regards the roping well, it happened to my teenage daughter in Greece. She turned round got the guy by the throat and "threatened to punch his lights out". He ran off at speed. She was 13 at the time.
If this were in Brazil, she would be dead.
Yeah but it's not. In the UK and Europe most gropers are the equivalent of bullies who fold if you fight back. In those circumstances always do what others least expect and you wrest the initiative back.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I think that's nonsense. Telling young girls to always fight back is insane. Never mind Brazil, there are parts of London where fighting back could land you in hospital - or worse.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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The Phantom Flan Flinger
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# 8891

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
IIRC 5% is very close to the conviction rate for rape. That's 90+% of rape victimes getting no justice.

Which I agree is completely unacceptable.
Oh Dear what awful logic, shame on you.

To be clear; rape convictions are too weak, not enough women come forward in the first place and it is a blight on our society.

However some of the 90% taken to court and not convicted were therefore found innocent. Some for perfectly lawful reasons. I know it's Hell but you just make yourself look stupid writing stuff like that.

Some of those 90% were found to be innocent, that is true. However, I find it hard to believe that +/- 95% of all people accused of rape are innocent.

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Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
ExclamationMark: As regards the roping well, it happened to my teenage daughter in Greece. She turned round got the guy by the throat and "threatened to punch his lights out". He ran off at speed. She was 13 at the time.
If this were in Brazil, she would be dead.
Yeah but it's not. In the UK and Europe most gropers are the equivalent of bullies who fold if you fight back. In those circumstances always do what others least expect and you wrest the initiative back.
Throughout my schooldays I never met a bully who folded when I fought back. They were usually so incensed that I had dared to that they beat the shit out of me.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
IIRC 5% is very close to the conviction rate for rape. That's 90+% of rape victimes getting no justice.

Which I agree is completely unacceptable.
Oh Dear what awful logic, shame on you.

To be clear; rape convictions are too weak, not enough women come forward in the first place and it is a blight on our society.

However some of the 90% taken to court and not convicted were therefore found innocent. Some for perfectly lawful reasons. I know it's Hell but you just make yourself look stupid writing stuff like that.

OK, I ws stretching things, but it's astonishing how few rapes come to trial and result in successful prosection. If benefit fraud prosections were as unsuccessful then the DWP's investigators would themselves be claiming benefits.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
ExclamationMark: As regards the roping well, it happened to my teenage daughter in Greece. She turned round got the guy by the throat and "threatened to punch his lights out". He ran off at speed. She was 13 at the time.
If this were in Brazil, she would be dead.
Yeah but it's not. In the UK and Europe most gropers are the equivalent of bullies who fold if you fight back. In those circumstances always do what others least expect and you wrest the initiative back.
Throughout my schooldays I never met a bully who folded when I fought back. They were usually so incensed that I had dared to that they beat the shit out of me.
Perhaps they're made of sterner stuff where u come from but the ones I've dealt with have all backed off. I suppose for one of them having my fingers in his eyeballs was a pretty big deterrant ....
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Huia
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# 3473

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Sometimes I have fought back, once physically (and left him on the ground - he was very drunk), but mostly I use words.

I don't think you make a blanket statement about how all sexual harassers or bullies will react, I try to read the situation and react accordingly. Mostly this has been successful.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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