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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Don't want to be groped? Get beaten up instead. (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Don't want to be groped? Get beaten up instead.
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think that's nonsense. Telling young girls to always fight back is insane. Never mind Brazil, there are parts of London where fighting back could land you in hospital - or worse.

Telling people what they should have done in situations like thus is always nonsense. First of all, it is real easy to decide what the exact perfect response should have been under duress when you are not actually under duress, second, if someone decides they have the right to access someone's body if they want, and they are wiling to use force to get it, they don't really care about what the person does.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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Wow, so that's two bullies here in Hell advocating violence over reason, or "let's become what we hate—it's okay, we're not them, and there won't be any consequences."

Victim blaming: it's not okay.

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
ExclamationMark: As regards the roping well, it happened to my teenage daughter in Greece. She turned round got the guy by the throat and "threatened to punch his lights out". He ran off at speed. She was 13 at the time.
If this were in Brazil, she would be dead.
Yeah but it's not. In the UK and Europe most gropers are the equivalent of bullies who fold if you fight back. In those circumstances always do what others least expect and you wrest the initiative back.
Throughout my schooldays I never met a bully who folded when I fought back. They were usually so incensed that I had dared to that they beat the shit out of me.
Perhaps they're made of sterner stuff where u come from but the ones I've dealt with have all backed off. I suppose for one of them having my fingers in his eyeballs was a pretty big deterrant ....
Depends on you being physically capable of doing that. I wasn't, therefore fighting back was a very bad strategy for me. And by extension, a bad strategy for many other people when they don't have a credible physical presence, as I didn't.

[ 03. September 2014, 07:55: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Depends on you being physically capable of doing that. I wasn't, therefore fighting back was a very bad strategy for me. And by extension, a bad strategy for many other people when they don't have a credible physical presence, as I didn't.

Actually, any kind of fighting back can backfire.

I was bullied as an adult. When I went to HR they sided with her until the evidence was totally overwhelming. Without excellent Union help, legal advice and evidence gathering I would have lost everything, not her. As it was she (headteacher, I was deputy) lost her job. But the stress of the fight caused me to need to downsize job-wise too in the end - so the fight wasn't without consequences for me either.

Maybe Jesus knew this when he refused to fight back and advocated the same?

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
IIRC 5% is very close to the conviction rate for rape. That's 90+% of rape victimes getting no justice.

Which I agree is completely unacceptable.
Oh Dear what awful logic, shame on you.

To be clear; rape convictions are too weak, not enough women come forward in the first place and it is a blight on our society.

However some of the 90% taken to court and not convicted were therefore found innocent. Some for perfectly lawful reasons. I know it's Hell but you just make yourself look stupid writing stuff like that.

Some of those 90% were found to be innocent, that is true. However, I find it hard to believe that +/- 95% of all people accused of rape are innocent.
I agree. I would go so far as to suggest that the vast majority of rapes go "unpunished." And that truth is abhorrent. My point (which I know you understood) was that it is unhelpful to the discussion to suggest non-conviction still implies guilt in all cases.

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It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:


I agree. I would go so far as to suggest that the vast majority of rapes go "unpunished." And that truth is abhorrent. My point (which I know you understood) was that it is unhelpful to the discussion to suggest non-conviction still implies guilt in all cases.

Quite correct - maybe a reasoned, thought out response would have been better than a quick knee-jerk reply, but hey, this is the internet...

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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/

Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
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# 14768

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There was a piece on Woman's Hour (BBC R4) today about sexual assault on public transport, and what to do.
One of the contributors had been told by the police what the range of assaults were. From any sexual touching at all, which is assault, and they were very keen not to call it groping unless in conversation with friends, through rubbing up against women (that has an actual name, does it not, as if it is somehow acceptable), and exposing themselves, to actual ejaculating onto women.
No-one advised fighting back. It seems it is not possible to predict whether the sub-human thing will shrink away or do what that bit of benthos did at Carnival. Assume the worst.
They also pointed out that women may go into shutdown and not be able to respond at once.
If on public transport, report as soon as possible to the driver or similar official. There will be CCTV, which is kept for about 5 days.
The police are very keen to get hold of the few (oops, I wrote people there, that implies humanity) who are responsible. They are of the opinion that it is a small group*, and the matter is potentially containable.
*When I write group, I do not think they imply any connection between the perpetrators.

TPFF - just noticed the knee-jerk reference. Isn't it odd that that term is now used for a reflex response which is not advisable? Which of course, it is, followed by scraping the foot down the shin, stamping on the instep, and if he should have bent over, punching on the back. The running. Or proceeding to the front of the bus and reporting.

[ 03. September 2014, 15:30: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
TPFF - just noticed the knee-jerk reference. Isn't it odd that that term is now used for a reflex response which is not advisable? Which of course, it is, followed by scraping the foot down the shin, stamping on the instep, and if he should have bent over, punching on the back. The running. Or proceeding to the front of the bus and reporting.

You've missed the old classic - fingers in the eyes. That's always a nice one
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

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That's because it's the one I couldn't bring myself to do. I am terrified myself of having anything near my eyes - what I will do when I need cataract surgery I don't know. I just couldn't do it. Besides, that sequence makes logical sense as a single movement. Hampered a bit by my not wearing heels, though.

I went to self defence classes at college, but came to the conclusion that practicing on a judo expert who was expecting me to do things, when I had to exclude the nasty stuff my Dad taught me, that he had been taught in the Army, wasn't going to prepare me for the real situation. And a lot of the moves ended up with me pinning the assailant down. Until when? I prefer removing myself from the scene! (And a sample of DNA by female type scratching or hair pulling.)

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
And a lot of the moves ended up with me pinning the assailant down. Until when?

I had exactly this happen. A boy decided he harrass me. I threw him and pinned him. He was considerably larger than me. And whilst his brothers were not helping him, neither were they assisting me. Fortunately someone fetched his mother who hauled him away.
Self defence is admirable, but will not ameliorate all physical differences.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
lilBuddha: Self defence is admirable, but will not ameliorate all physical differences.
Nor will it ameliorate weapons.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
And a lot of the moves ended up with me pinning the assailant down. Until when? I prefer removing myself from the scene! (And a sample of DNA by female type scratching or hair pulling.)

I've always been partial to a kick to the balls followed by running.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Phantom Flan Flinger
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# 8891

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:

TPFF - just noticed the knee-jerk reference. Isn't it odd that that term is now used for a reflex response which is not advisable? Which of course, it is, followed by scraping the foot down the shin, stamping on the instep, and if he should have bent over, punching on the back. The running. Or proceeding to the front of the bus and reporting.

Or a good thump to the back of the neck.
Admittedly, that's more effective if the assailant is a Sontaran.

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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/

Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

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I have to say I have never done any of that! Except a halfhearted thump on the upper back to someone from the church youth club who was trying to remove one of my shoes (?). I am sorry to say I hurt him.
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L'organist
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# 17338

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Best response on a tube train to groping I ever saw:

Sudden commotion in centre of crowded carriage, accompanied by a shouted "I found this up my skirt, whose is it and why is it there?" - then noticed feisty women holding aloft hand of very red-faced man next to her.

He was berated by all until he got off at the next stop, pursued (caught up with I think) by several other people from the carriage.

(btw 'proper' term for rubbing-up against is frottage)

If you see something unacceptable, or experience it, shout about it if you're in a public place - sometimes all other people need is the courage to join an initial complainant.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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I read some thrilling historical newspaper accounts of hatpin injuries in Edwardian and Victorian times -- women who responded to a grope by using the six-inch-long pin that held on their birdbath hats. There was actually legislation banning the hatpins. I will point out that knitters are notably dangerous people that way.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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My great grandma hat-pinned someone. This was in 1910's San Francisco.

My grandmother originally told us the story as the assailant getting it in the hand, but when I was sixteen or so I mentioned the story, and she coughed, " now that you're older, I can tell you-- it wasn't his hand."

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

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My grandmother advised me about hatpins. Living in a time when they were no use at all (I could never understand where they went, having short hair) I never carried one.

And I did know the word - I just didn't want to honour it by referring to it. It doesn't have a suitably yucky sound.

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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
And I did know the word - I just didn't want to honour it by referring to it. It doesn't have a suitably yucky sound.

Are you kidding? It's one of the yuckiest-sounding words there is! Unfortunately it kind of taints fromage (which ought to be a beautiful word, given what it describes), for me as well.

(Yes, on this of all topics, I should have something less trivial to say. Bit short of time right now, though).

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
And I did know the word - I just didn't want to honour it by referring to it. It doesn't have a suitably yucky sound.

Does it need to have one? In other contexts it can describe a consensual activity.
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There was actually legislation banning the hatpins.

Protecting sexual predators from the consequences of their actions has a long history, then.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Yeah , no kidding.

I ran scross a " weird news" item in which s judge in New England ruled in favor of a lady who was being sued by a guy who had kissed her without invite. She bit his nose nearly off to get him off her, and he sued for assault. The judge ruled in her favor, saying if she was forced into such an encounter, it was her perogative to "eat it up" if she so chose.

I think that is possibly a tad extreme, but I think the judge was trying to make a point. [Big Grin]

( grandma's voice: "It wasn't the nose.")

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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(Forgot to say, this was around the turn of the century.)

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I've always been partial to a kick to the balls followed by running.

I can't say inviting someone to stamp on my testicles before my morning jog would do a lot for me really.


[Razz]

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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Oops . Sorry ,didn't mean to kill the thread .

Humour no doubt inappropriate.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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Eh, I found it amusing. I think the thread was dying anyway with everybody having said all they have to say on the topic.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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Oh right , thanks for that [Smile]

I was just scrolling down and saw a double take on your sentence and couldn't resist it .
Suppose it wasn't entirely off topic as the grope thing seemed to have morphed into a general bashing about of the male parts .

The remark was entirely in jest as I'm not in to jogging at all, morning or otherwise. Always looks way too exhausting.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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And, hey, it was only ever about someone you don't know being savagely punched in the face. Bit of a larf, innit?
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