|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Why UKIP Really is Scum
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
There's nothing strange in by-election results, although had UKIP won Heywood & Middleton too that would have been surprising.
What I find appalling isn't that a turncoat Tory won for UKIP in a seat where UKIP could well have unseated the Tory at the next generaal election, but the statement from Nigel Farage regarding a ban on immigrants with HIV on the tired old premise that it puts a strain on the NHS. FFS, the reason the NHS is under a strain is because many of the services that used to be provided from within the NHS at modest cost are now contracted out so private firms can make money out of what should be spent on patient care.
I have to ask why Farage focused on HIV. Why not those with cancer, heart disease or anyone with an unhealthy lifestyle such as smokers, drinkers and anyone with BMI over about 28?
What a five-star, fur-lined, ocean-going shit the man is.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
I don't think Labour will be that freaked out about Heywood, as their share of the vote held up, while the Tory and LibDem vote collapsed. It's the turn-out which affects Labour, and here it was low - 36%. It will rise for the GE. It is ridiculous that the winner gets 14% of the electorate voting for her.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
Most of us can probably hazard a guess at why Farage would put 'immigrants, ban, and HIV' in the same sentence.
It might make people like me baulk at putting a cross in UKIP's box at the General, but then I don't regard myself as typical. If he thinks there are buttons to be pushed among a disgruntled Electorate he's going to push them.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
Unfortunately he's successfully tapping into something rather widespread, cheap and nasty among the electorate.
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
We had this in western Canada with the variously named Reform Party, Canadian Alliance, Canadian Reform Alliance (probably among others, and after the total collapse of the Progressive Conservative Party, a merging under the banner of the Conservative Party.
The implications for Canada's politics was to pull everything sharply right, corporatist, ideological, while softening or sending underground their religious and anti-minority ideas. If UKIP is a populist bunch and repeatedly gets sizeable votes whether elected or not, I suspect it will pull your politrics further right and reactionary as well. And as if any of us need more reactionariness.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
If he thinks there are buttons to be pushed among a disgruntled Electorate he's going to push them.
Got it in one.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
If UKIP is a populist bunch and repeatedly gets sizeable votes whether elected or not, I suspect it will pull your politrics further right and reactionary as well.
If more people want to vote for right-wing parties, then isn't that what's supposed to happen?
Seems to me that your real problem is with the fact that so many people have problems that they think only UKIP can solve. But I guess it's always easier to rant about the symptom rather than the cause...
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think Labour will be that freaked out about Heywood, as their share of the vote held up, while the Tory and LibDem vote collapsed.
That's Labour's line and they're sticking to it though. At least for today. Their share was in fact 1% up on what they achieved in Heywood in 2010, although their performance in 2010 was poor by historic standards. In Clacton their share of the vote was down 50%.
There is an argument that Labour are in fact the most freaked out of any of the parties this morning, because the Tories had emotionally accepted in advance that they were going to lose the seat, whereas Labour hadn't priced in coming within 600 odd votes of following them, in their own heartlands.
You're right though that the turnout masks things to an extent. I think the GE next year is going to be fascinating.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
Farage's number 2 wants to extend the privatisation of the NHS.
They don't advertise this stuff very well.
Like the effects of flat rate tax on the poor.
I am getting quite worried. I believe in democracy. But when the voters want to vote for a vile, ignorant, and selfish set of millionaires it makes me squirm.
I used to feel that there were only a few people I wouldn't trust if there were a totalitarian party in power, but now... My sister and I went on a trip to Shetland and Orkney through the Guardian travel offers, and could not discuss politics freely because there were some Ukip voters on it. (The company the G uses used other papers as well.)
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
Why did you feel you couldn't discuss it freely - surely that's the way to prick the UKIP-voters' bubble?
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Why did you feel you couldn't discuss it freely - surely that's the way to prick the UKIP-voters' bubble?
Or get humilated for being trendy, lefty, yoghurt-knitting guardianistas who are out of touch. Perhaps it's that.
Anyway, we will turn the seat back Conservative at the next General Election.
Since the BNP imploded though, all those disaffected Labour voters who don't like them forners will run from Millibore to Nigel F.
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
|
Posted
It's bizarre how the die-hard Tory-lovers like Deano try to spin this as a disaster for Labour.
The Tories have always had a breadth of support from the mild to the extremist. But they need that full breadth of support in order to win against reasonable, rational people who care about others, the environment and who wouldn't dream of voting Conservative.
What UKIP do is they are taking away the extremist and the unthinking Tory vote. It's as though the Conservatives have largely given up, and the way they try to spin it is that anything less a Labour landslide is viewed as a crisis. All this despite the fact that the Conservatives lost a safe seat and had their vote decimated in Heywood.
Labour certainly aren't cruising to an inevitable victory as they were this time in 1996, not least because they're losing support to the Greens.
For me, the really interesting point was the turnouts. Clacton was down on the general election but at 50% was higher than many constituencies get. Yet Heywood was just 36%. It all rather brings to mind this lovely cartoon by Dave Walker.
--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Why did you feel you couldn't discuss it freely - surely that's the way to prick the UKIP-voters' bubble?
Because it was supposed to be a friendly archaeology based trip, and discussions between people of opposite views about politics tend not to be friendly. (I didn't know who the people were, my sister had identified them. She is much more political than me, and felt it to be inappropriate. It is easier for me to go along with her feelings than not.)
I'm not so sure about Clacton going back to the Tories at the GE, though, deano. There is clearly a personal rather than a party element in the voting. It'll be interesting to see what happens with Reckless' seat. (Was there ever such a case of nominative determinism?)
[ 10. October 2014, 15:05: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
It's bizarre how the die-hard Tory-lovers like Deano try to spin this as a disaster for Labour.
The Tories have always had a breadth of support from the mild to the extremist. But they need that full breadth of support in order to win against reasonable, rational people who care about others, the environment and who wouldn't dream of voting Conservative.
What UKIP do is they are taking away the extremist and the unthinking Tory vote. It's as though the Conservatives have largely given up, and the way they try to spin it is that anything less a Labour landslide is viewed as a crisis. All this despite the fact that the Conservatives lost a safe seat and had their vote decimated in Heywood.
Labour certainly aren't cruising to an inevitable victory as they were this time in 1996, not least because they're losing support to the Greens.
For me, the really interesting point was the turnouts. Clacton was down on the general election but at 50% was higher than many constituencies get. Yet Heywood was just 36%. It all rather brings to mind this lovely cartoon by Dave Walker.
Ha! It isn't just me. As ever, the Daily Mash has it nailed...
UKIP attracting Labour voters who are fed up and stupid
Which is probably rather more on the nose than your cartoonist.
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
Let's see now. There are two by-elections. One party loses their seat. The other hangs on, albeit by a much reduced margin. Any disinterested analysis is going to say that neither party have ground for complacency but that the second party did better than the first.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I am getting quite worried. I believe in democracy. But when the voters want to vote for a vile, ignorant, and selfish set of millionaires it makes me squirm.
I can't stand UKip
But I'm getting hopeful.
If the two party system is changed to a five or six party system, maybe people will begin to be interested and engaged again in politics.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Let's see now. There are two by-elections. One party loses their seat. The other hangs on, albeit by a much reduced margin. Any disinterested analysis is going to say that neither party have ground for complacency but that the second party did better than the first.
And yet... the first party has been under the cosh of the winning party. Everyone expected the first party to be damaged. It happened.
Nobody really saw the number of voters turning against the second party though. Which means the analysis is not yet complete.
I'll be interested to see how NF talks up the disaffected Labour voters. How is he going to square his left and right?
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
QLib
Bad Example
# 43
|
Posted
If UKIP really cared about our independence as a nation, they would be going full out against TTIP instead of maundering on about the EU.
--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I'll be interested to see how NF talks up the disaffected Labour voters. How is he going to square his left and right?
The National Front will have a tug of war with the Greens.
Oh, that's not what you meant by NF! It can be hard to tell the difference at times.
--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
If UKIP really cared about our independence as a nation, they would be going full out against TTIP instead of maundering on about the EU.
But UKIP are simply a popularist party - they say things that people want to hear, with Nationalism as a starting point.
They are manipulative bastards, an are succeeding because Labour are pathetic and the Tories actually agree with them, but pretend not to, as they would have to implement these policies.
Of course at the general election, there is a chance that he will be thrown out again.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
In other news, right-wing vote split between two parties, left-wing vote holds up.
Under our woefully antiquated FPTP electoral system, all the pain will be felt by the Tories. I am, actually, feeling quite hopeful.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
It's bizarre how the die-hard Tory-lovers like Deano try to spin this as a disaster for Labour.
It isn't. It really isn't.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
In some ways, I have the feeling that what the UK is going through is similar to what the Netherlands have been going through 13 year ago. But the difference is a FPTP system.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
In other news, right-wing vote split between two parties, left-wing vote holds up.
Under our woefully antiquated FPTP electoral system, all the pain will be felt by the Tories. I am, actually, feeling quite hopeful.
Except there's the Lib Dems who vanished, and Ukip rose by more than the Cons went down.
So it leaves the possibility that Libs replaced massive Labour defections to Ukip (though it could be a artifact of a low turnout or libdems being fishy-or just abstaining)*.
Which is worrying as if people had a worldview that supported Ukips policies you'd have thought they were Tory before. So on that basis either they don't realize what they are getting, they're choosing to cut their nose to spite the face, Ukip are offering something so good it outweighs the bad (which I can't really see, you have Europe-which if in the North you already have London and many of the claims are dubious, and Xenophobia).
*I normally cast a suspicious eye on a tory friends facebook posts (when on politics). But this time seem to have taken his narrative for granted. Now I stop to think there are other quite likely possibilities (although that's still little comfort)
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
|
Posted
As Christians we are supposed to be responsible and exercise our vote.
I shall do so.
Tories? No way. Cameron is mealy-mouthed and broken every commitment he has made. A slippery "posh" man.
Labour? God help us. They broke the country financially last time and they are simply stooges of Unite and Unison Milliband even forgets to mention the economy in his Conference speech
UKIP? The less said the better.
My vote? A write-in. None of the above.
[ 10. October 2014, 19:20: Message edited by: shamwari ]
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I am getting quite worried. I believe in democracy. But when the voters want to vote for a vile, ignorant, and selfish set of millionaires it makes me squirm.
And so you should. Over here in Switzerland we have one such millionaire by the name of Christoph Blocher who ran the Swiss People's Party (SVP) for years and still pulls the strings by proxy. He trashed the consensual style of Swiss politics and made government quite dysfunctional for while. He got minions of aggrieved working class types behind him, because he had mastered the discourse and language spoken at the regulars' table down at your local pub.
Farage is cut out of the the same wood. In fact, we even had him over here speaking to the SVP's subsidiary, the Action group for an Independent and Neutral Switzerland ("AUNS") just last week. Actually, I find the internationality of SVP-UKIP type nationalism and xenophobia quite intriguing. In the same way as Blocher's confrontationalism disrupted the essence of the Swiss political culture that he was supposedly defending, I find Farage's style and outlook rather ... European.
--------------------
... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
As Christians we are supposed to be responsible and exercise our vote.
I shall do so.
Tories? No way. Cameron is mealy-mouthed and broken every commitment he has made. A slippery "posh" man.
Labour? God help us. They broke the country financially last time and they are simply stooges of Unite and Unison Milliband even forgets to mention the economy in his Conference speech
UKIP? The less said the better.
My vote? A write-in. None of the above.
As long as you think they're all equally bad, that's fine. Otherwise, you're abdicating the ability to select the least worst option. Because "no representative at all" isn't one of the options.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
What horrifies me is that the population is aging (note the courageously absent mute 'E') and politics goes right with age.
My eyes are swivellinglier. I'm loonier. I'm scummier. With each grain of sand that falls.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
|
Posted
The result of the Heywood and Middleton by-election suggests that the "anyone but Labour" vote coalesced on UKIP, the Labour vote more or less remaining in place.
If it were the case that UKIP held the balance of power then I would hope, but not expect, that Labour and the Tories would form a national government.
--------------------
Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
The result of the Heywood and Middleton by-election suggests that the "anyone but Labour" vote coalesced on UKIP, the Labour vote more or less remaining in place.
But what was the size of the "anyone but Labour" vote, overall?
One of the things that mystifies me about first past the post systems is that they seem to fail to reflect the overall mood of an electorate. It doesn't matter if, for example, the vote for right wing parties is more than the vote for left wing parties, if there's one big left wing party it will win against several smaller right wing parties.
I much prefer our preferential voting system, where people are able to indicate that if they can't have their first choice from 'their' end of the political spectrum, they'd prefer to have another choice from roughly the same end of the political spectrum rather than someone far removed from it.
Most people vote in that fashion, such that even before preferences are formally distributed it's possible to see the overall left/right divide of first preference votes. It's only in very close contests that this might not be reflected in the final outcome.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by molopata:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I am getting quite worried. I believe in democracy. But when the voters want to vote for a vile, ignorant, and selfish set of millionaires it makes me squirm.
And so you should. Over here in Switzerland we have one such millionaire by the name of Christoph Blocher who ran the Swiss People's Party (SVP) for years and still pulls the strings by proxy. He trashed the consensual style of Swiss politics and made government quite dysfunctional for while. He got minions of aggrieved working class types behind him, because he had mastered the discourse and language spoken at the regulars' table down at your local pub.
But did these Swiss working class-types feel disenfranchised in some way? Did they feel excluded by this 'consensual' approach to politics?
One of the reasons why UKIP has been successful lately is that there is a group of people out there who are fed up with the politicians they usually vote for or hate the current system so much that they don't vote at all (except for UKIP). One response to this phenomenon is to brand UKIP voters as racist scumbags or such-like. I'm not sure how that helps.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
One response to this phenomenon is to brand UKIP voters as racist scumbags or such-like. I'm not sure how that helps.
However, they are voting for a party with unashamedly racist, homophobic policies, espoused by homophobic racists. Are you suggesting that we should congratulate them for that?
It's like that Mitchell and Webb sketch where they're playing SS officers and one turns to the other, suggesting that the black uniforms and death's head badges might be a bit much, and "Hans: you don't think we might be the bad guys, do you?"
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I think the problem is that politicians are not currently making any serious attempts to argue for their political positions. Instead, they are either trying to persuade you that they already agree with you, or that they will make you - or the country - richer.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
[Ran out of edit time.]
Immigration shows this most clearly, as most mainstream parties do not want to reduce immigration much. Whereas a significant portion of the population do.
The politicians don't, because they know that the economic evidence is that major reductions in immigration would be economically detrimental. Whereas a significant amount of voters speak as if they believe that there is a) a significant traffic of people entering the country for benefits and healthcare and who then do no work (this is simply not true) and b) that there is some finite amount of jobs and the more people who enter the country the less jobs there will be (this is also not true).
The unspoken argument, or dogwhistle stuff as I believe they say in the US, is that some people believe our culture is being diluted or undermined. Or in the view of some people, corrupted.
But to believe that, you have to believe that the british citizens of African, Caribbean, Asian, Polish, Romany, Muslim, Buddhist etc descent and tradition are at some level not truly British - and therefore when elements of their heritage become more prominent in the culture, it is a problem. That the culture should be permanently white anglo saxon protestant dominant. Which is essentially the line UKIP is selling, and many other people think that belief is by definition racist. And also likely to be economically disastrous.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
I think that's right - the dogwhistle message is for white dominance, and also, that it would be economically disastrous.
I also think that UKIP are being quite coy about their policies, and probably some UKIP voters don't realize how right-wing they are.
I notice that Cornwall has quite a strong UKIP following, yet this is a place which is receiving financial aid from the EU.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
Tony Benn was a flawed man and a flawed politian, but this analysis is bang on.
[ 11. October 2014, 11:02: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
One response to this phenomenon is to brand UKIP voters as racist scumbags or such-like. I'm not sure how that helps.
However, they are voting for a party with unashamedly racist, homophobic policies, espoused by homophobic racists. Are you suggesting that we should congratulate them for that?
It's like that Mitchell and Webb sketch where they're playing SS officers and one turns to the other, suggesting that the black uniforms and death's head badges might be a bit much, and "Hans: you don't think we might be the bad guys, do you?"
Ah yes ... "Have you looked at our caps recently?"
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, they are voting for a party with unashamedly racist, homophobic policies, espoused by homophobic racists. Are you suggesting that we should congratulate them for that?
No, but perhaps trying to work out why they did so may be enlightening. Or is because they don't read the Guardian up north?
There was an interesting documentary on Channel 4 a few years ago that followed the white, working class men, who found themselves a minority in a muslim majority area of the town they lived in.
These people were all traditional Labour voters but had switched to the BNP.
Now the BNP is dead in the water, it looks as if that component of the electorate has moved to UKIP.
These are old Labour, union types. Why is the left ignoring them and forcing them to vote for UKIP? When will the Labour party start talking about what those people want?
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
Politics is not, in my book, supposed to be simply about giving people what they want (although goodness knows it seems to descend to that often enough). It's supposed to be about leadership. And leadership includes telling people that some of what they want is contradictory or impossible or counter-productive.
Or just plain wrong. I'm sorry, but I cannot for the life of me think of anything good that could come from telling people that living in a Muslim majority area is a "problem" that you can "solve".
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
These are old Labour, union types. Why is the left ignoring them and forcing them to vote for UKIP? When will the Labour party start talking about what those people want?
'Old' Labour was killed by Mandelson, Blair and 'new' Labour, and the unions were rendered impotent by Thatcher's 1980s Conservatives. Historically both Labour and Conservative parties have catered for 'people like us' and there are a lot of ignorant, homophobic racists in Britain (about 30% of the electorate, IMNSHO). Maybe they deserve some representation?
If that is done then in addition to exposing UKIPs policies for what they are, we'll see how useless and dishonest their MPs are, with the possible exception of various turncoats.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Or just plain wrong. I'm sorry, but I cannot for the life of me think of anything good that could come from telling people that living in a Muslim majority area is a "problem" that you can "solve".
In the trivial sense, it is indeed a problem that you can solve. The solution, in a slightly different context, was known as "white flight". If you don't like the fact that most of your neighbours are Muslims, you can move.
It's not surprising that enclaves of immigrants from a particular country form - most people find comfort in a familiar-looking face speaking a familiar language and with familiar customs, particularly when faced with a strange and unfamiliar land.
Religious communities will also form naturally - quite apart from the fact that these are often the same as the cultural / national groupings above, once enough people gather and construct a house of worship of some variety, surely it is natural that their coreligionists will tend to be drawn to the existing facility.
So if you agree that it is unsurprising that immigrants to a country should wish to gather with others whose language and culture they find familiar, should you not also be unsurprised if the existing population of a country also seek out the society of those whose language and culture they understand?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
Seek out, yes. Achieve it by restricting others, no.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
In some ways, I have the feeling that what the UK is going through is similar to what the Netherlands have been going through 13 year ago. But the difference is a FPTP system.
Yup, the system designed to elect knights of the shire, on a forty shilling freehold. Since it predates political parties by centuries, it takes no account of 'em.
So we end up with a system that ignores the realities of power. Throughout the Eighties, the British electorate voted for a left-wing coalition, and got landed with a bunch of moralizing neoliberal zealots.
It's shocking that more isn't made of this subversion of democracy.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Throughout the Eighties, the British electorate voted for a left-wing coalition, and got landed with a bunch of moralizing neoliberal zealots.
Is this what the left tells itself to help it sleep at night?
[ 11. October 2014, 17:06: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Throughout the Eighties, the British electorate voted for a left-wing coalition, and got landed with a bunch of moralizing neoliberal zealots.
Is this what the left tells itself to help it sleep at night?
Not being a pinko socialist insomniac, I couldn't say. It's certainly what the 80s' votes tell us.
Conservatives never polled above 44%. Combined Labour/Liberal vote was 51% in '79, and Labour/Liberal/SDP got 53% in '83 & '87.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm sorry, but I cannot for the life of me think of anything good that could come from telling people that living in a Muslim majority area is a "problem" that you can "solve".
OK, I could be talking out my arse because, though indigenous to this Country, I've never been a UK city dweller. However it strikes me the phenomena of *birds of a feather flocking together* has been a problem here since the 70s.
People moving out of certain urban areas because of the dominance of a particular ethnic group is the prime reason why ethnic integration has largely failed. Those who grew up in streets now changed by immigration don't need to be told it's a problem they know it, and solving it usually meant, or means, moving house.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
For which I would blame the fuckwits in the SDP. One election of failure ought to have been enough for them to realise that their little "project" was not going to work but their egos couldn't take slinking back with their tails between their legs.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Thread closed
Printer-friendly view
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
