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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: lies on immigration
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I always get the impression that right wing/racist people don't want immigration to work. In the case of some politicians, this makes sense, as they can get votes by doing scare stories.
But what about others who are right-wing? Do they want immigration to fail; do they want conflict to develop?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Orfeo
Are you READING? I don't say that 'otherness' - or whatever - is something I have difficulty with: and if you read my other posts you might get some inkling why.
quote:
Or we could tell them to just grow the fuck up. We're not talking about sheep. We're not talking about 3-year-olds who need to hide behind Mummy's leg or be given a cuddle. We're talking about fully grown "adult" human beings here. And if a fully grown human being can't cope with the fact that the family down the road eats different food and wears different clothing and follows a different sport and prays on a Friday instead of a Sunday, then fuck me we are in serious trouble.
I was saying that there are people who find difference difficult to deal with. And rant and scream all you like, that is fact: whether or not the attitude is seen as unreasonable or infantile is immaterial, it exists.
Yes, it exists, and I am reading because I'm well aware you weren't saying that this was your own thoughts. But I am responding to the notion that we should give such concerns the time of day.
We shouldn't. It's as simple as that. The sum total of the credence we should give to such concerns is to ridicule them as I was doing, to show how utterly ridiculous they are. To show that it simply isn't true that the different dress or different language of the person down the road has any meaningful impact on my life.
What we get instead is a bunch of politicians anxious to coddle and mollify and say "oh, I understand your concerns" because telling people that they have a good point is how you get their votes.
I find talk of things like PTAs folding because of the race of the parents utterly bizarre. My sister runs her school PTA. My sister frequently tears her hair out in frustration at the difficulty in getting volunteers for any activities, despite the enthusiastic agreement to having the activities.
My sister is surrounded by busy modern parents who either can't or won't contribute meaningful time and effort to school-related activities. And guess what? Most of them are white Anglo-Celts.
It's technological and social change that's driving the loss of various physically-based community groups. Not the bloody colour of people's skin. It's the fact that you're sitting at your computer discussing issues with a bloke in Australia instead of discussing issues down at the school hall with your neighbours. It's the fact that you can entertain yourself for hours on a home entertainment system with Netflix and 900 channels and have no need for the local amateur dramatic society. It's the fact that you can buy most of what you need on the internet and can bypass your local shop. It's the fact that entire generations of families have discovered that iPads can be used to avoid talking to people.
The notion that these changes are best attributed to the ethnicity of the locals is exactly the kind of slightly racist nonsense that we need to start calling slightly racist nonsense before it blows up into full-on racist voting.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
How are the Maoris fairing these days? Treating them well are you?
I think I can safely say that I have done nothing whatsoever to harm the native Maori culture of my country.
(No, no... let the poor sweet dear work it out for himself if he can.)
Oh you're a fucking Ausie aren't you, not a
Kiwi. Same difference though innit? You all talk funny and have either a failure or a criminal in your backgrounds (because nobody who is a success in their own country does actually emigrate). Shall we ask how many Aborigines you've mistreated then instead.
Nice of you to not address the issue though. It highlighted in a nutshell what is wrong most of the ship. As well as confirming you as a real bell-end.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think also that some people are actively working to defuse tensions over race and immigration. For example, in Oldham again, there are various organizations which go into the Asian and white communities, to discuss all the problems and fears, suggest ways in which more mixing can happen, and so on. For example, you now get mentoring schemes in schools, where an Asian kid mentors a white kid, and vice versa. This seems to me to be preferable to passively watching and predicting disaster. The biggest lie is that we are doomed.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I always get the impression that right wing/racist people don't want immigration to work. In the case of some politicians, this makes sense, as they can get votes by doing scare stories.
But what about others who are right-wing? Do they want immigration to fail; do they want conflict to develop?
Right wing? Where do you think the conflict will develop? Henley-on-Thames or Bradford? It will be your precious "working" classes who will start any conflict.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
How are the Maoris fairing these days? Treating them well are you?
I think I can safely say that I have done nothing whatsoever to harm the native Maori culture of my country.
(No, no... let the poor sweet dear work it out for himself if he can.)
Oh you're a fucking Ausie aren't you, not a
Kiwi. Same difference though innit? You all talk funny and have either a failure or a criminal in your backgrounds (because nobody who is a success in their own country does actually emigrate). Shall we ask how many Aborigines you've mistreated then instead.
Nice of you to not address the issue though. It highlighted in a nutshell what is wrong most of the ship. As well as confirming you as a real bell-end.
Which issue would that be then? The utterly false figures you've presented about how many people are seeking to emigrate to Australia?
They're utterly false. There ya go.
I've been exposed to people from other cultures my entire life. Why the hell should some more arrivals be a problem? My closest friend in first grade was a recent Chinese immigrant who spoke broken English. I spent almost my entire schooling with a Muslim girl from Bangladesh. I went to high school with the daughter of the Indian ambassador, and she observed Ramadan. I spent years in a church with lots of Southern Sudanese people in it. I played in the church soccer competition with them. HALF MY FUCKING TEAM SPOKE TO EACH OTHER IN ARABIC.
I live in the capital city of the most multicultural country on the planet, surrounded by people who've come here because they or their families are connected to embassies, and you think I don't know what it's like to deal with foreigners? It's precisely because I do know that I'm calling you on your shit.
[ 30. October 2014, 10:29: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I always get the impression that right wing/racist people don't want immigration to work. In the case of some politicians, this makes sense, as they can get votes by doing scare stories.
But what about others who are right-wing? Do they want immigration to fail; do they want conflict to develop?
Right wing? Where do you think the conflict will develop? Henley-on-Thames or Bradford? It will be your precious "working" classes who will start any conflict.
Eh? Are you saying that working class people can't be right-wing? Come to Oldham, I will show you different.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I always get the impression that right wing/racist people don't want immigration to work. In the case of some politicians, this makes sense, as they can get votes by doing scare stories.
But what about others who are right-wing? Do they want immigration to fail; do they want conflict to develop?
Right wing? Where do you think the conflict will develop? Henley-on-Thames or Bradford? It will be your precious "working" classes who will start any conflict.
Eh? Are you saying that working class people can't be right-wing? Come to Oldham, I will show you different.
But don't you expect those sorts to vote Labour?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
There are times I wish these arguments were face to face, not on t'internet.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
No, I expect them to vote UKIP or EDL or BNP - well the kids I work with would chose those parties to vote for, even the mixed race White-Afro-Caribbean kids who are complaining about Bangladeshi immigration.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
How are the Maoris fairing these days? Treating them well are you?
I think I can safely say that I have done nothing whatsoever to harm the native Maori culture of my country.
(No, no... let the poor sweet dear work it out for himself if he can.)
Oh you're a fucking Ausie aren't you, not a
Kiwi. Same difference though innit? You all talk funny and have either a failure or a criminal in your backgrounds (because nobody who is a success in their own country does actually emigrate). Shall we ask how many Aborigines you've mistreated then instead.
Nice of you to not address the issue though. It highlighted in a nutshell what is wrong most of the ship. As well as confirming you as a real bell-end.
Which issue would that be then? The utterly false figures you've presented about how many people are seeking to emigrate to Australia?
They're utterly false. There ya go.
I've been exposed to people from other cultures my entire life. Why the hell should some more arrivals be a problem? My closest friend in first grade was a recent Chinese immigrant who spoke broken English. I spent almost my entire schooling with a Muslim girl from Bangladesh. I went to high school with the daughter of the Indian ambassador, and she observed Ramadan. I spent years in a church with lots of Southern Sudanese people in it. I played in the church soccer competition with them. HALF MY FUCKING TEAM SPOKE TO EACH OTHER IN ARABIC.
I live in the capital city of the most multicultural country on the planet, surrounded by people who've come here because they or their families are connected to embassies, and you think I don't know what it's like to deal with foreigners? It's precisely because I do know that I'm calling you on your shit.
I have four questions...
1. Yeah?
2. And?
3. So?
4. What?
I'm not interested in your shinning example of oneness. It may surprise you to learn that here in the UK we don't give a fuck about you lot. Except that on occasions we get the odd news report about how you sink the odd ship with immigrants on. Or something. It's usually before the sport so I'm not really listening.
I'm more interested in dealing with the problems here in the UK, and you have no answers except "ooh, look at me. I'm really good. Be more like me". But nobody over here wants to be a donkey's prick like you.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I live in the capital city of the most multicultural country on the planet
You live in Washington, D.C.? Somehow I thought you were a Brit...
[ 30. October 2014, 11:38: Message edited by: jbohn ]
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I always get the impression that right wing/racist people don't want immigration to work. In the case of some politicians, this makes sense, as they can get votes by doing scare stories.
But what about others who are right-wing? Do they want immigration to fail; do they want conflict to develop?
Right wing? Where do you think the conflict will develop? Henley-on-Thames or Bradford? It will be your precious "working" classes who will start any conflict.
Eh? Are you saying that working class people can't be right-wing? Come to Oldham, I will show you different.
But don't you expect those sorts to vote Labour?
Why the fuck would they vote Labour? Come on, trying being real.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I live in the capital city of the most multicultural country on the planet
You live in Washington, D.C.? Somehow I thought you were a Brit...
That was Orfeo's quote you numpty. Not mine.
NB I've been to DC many times. Shite-hole. I can see why we tried to burn it down. But that's off topic I guess.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Oh well, deano has joined the thread, so everything will be about him now, and his baiting. End of thread really.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Why the fuck would they vote Labour? Come on, trying being real.
Dunno. Perhaps because the Labour Party - being full of socialists - see's the working class as it's mainstay vote. Or is it only young professionals who live in mobile phone adverts that form the core of the Labour vote these days.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Oh well, deano has joined the thread, so everything will be about him now, and his baiting. End of thread really.
Oh, you mean because I don't agree with you you're going to sulk? You really are an adolescent teenager aren't you son?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Oh well, deano has joined the thread, so everything will be about him now, and his baiting. End of thread really.
Oh, you mean because I don't agree with you you're going to sulk? You really are an adolescent teenager aren't you son?
I just think that most threads that you join, start to revolve around you, and your various attempts to bait people. It doesn't make me sulk; it's just a shame that a serious discussion is sabotaged again by you.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Oh well, deano has joined the thread, so everything will be about him now, and his baiting. End of thread really.
Oh, you mean because I don't agree with you you're going to sulk? You really are an adolescent teenager aren't you son?
I just think that most threads that you join, start to revolve around you, and your various attempts to bait people. It doesn't make me sulk; it's just a shame that a serious discussion is sabotaged again by you.
That may be true. But, having people pop up and say "hey, there's deano! Let's start talking about him! that'll be the end of the thread" really helps us to not talk about deano. Yeah right.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
How are the Maoris fairing these days? Treating them well are you?
I think I can safely say that I have done nothing whatsoever to harm the native Maori culture of my country.
(No, no... let the poor sweet dear work it out for himself if he can.)
Oh dear Deano, oh dear...
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I'm more interested in dealing with the problems here in the UK, and you have no answers except
My answer is that it's about time you got it in your head that human beings are human beings wherever they are and whatever they look like. My answer is that treating the UK like an isolated little pocket of the world that can ignore the rest of the world if it wants is fundamentally wrong. My answer is that if you think you can cordon off your piece of the planet the way you cordon off your house and garden you are kidding yourself.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by ORFEO ACTUALLY:
I live in the capital city of the most multicultural country on the planet
You live in Washington, D.C.?
I'm not going to expend a lot of energy again trying to present data as to why the USA is actually relying on the situation from 50 to 100 years ago to construct it's ongoing mythos of itself as the world's great cultural melting point, because last time I presented the actual facts about the proportion of people from overseas in various countries it had zero effect.
Believe what you want to believe. Heaven knows, Americans believing they're exceptionally multicultural is a lot smaller problem than the other untruths about immigration being discussed here. Because you are, in fact, quite multicultural. You're just not more multicultural than everybody else. From memory you're about 4th.
[ 30. October 2014, 12:44: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
That was Orfeo's quote you numpty. Not mine.
Mea culpa.
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
NB I've been to DC many times. Shite-hole. I can see why we tried to burn it down. But that's off topic I guess.
As have I, though I don't share your thoughts on it, or the failed invasion (cf. the Battle of New Orleans, etc.)
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by ORFEO ACTUALLY:
I live in the capital city of the most multicultural country on the planet
You live in Washington, D.C.?
I'm not going to expend a lot of energy again trying to present data as to why the USA is actually relying on the situation from 50 to 100 years ago to construct it's ongoing mythos of itself as the world's great cultural melting point, because last time I presented the actual facts about the proportion of people from overseas in various countries it had zero effect.
Believe what you want to believe. Heaven knows, Americans believing they're exceptionally multicultural is a lot smaller problem than the other untruths about immigration being discussed here. Because you are, in fact, quite multicultural. You're just not more multicultural than everybody else. From memory you're about 4th.
I didn't see that you'd presented it the first time. Interesting, though. My (admittedly anecdotal) response was based on the children in the school district I work in speaking (last I heard) around 100 different languages and/or dialects - and I'm not even in one of the largest cities in the country.
Didn't mean to annoy you, though - just thought I had a chance to tweak deano a bit, nothing more. Which, it turns out, I bolloxed up. Humph. Must have more coffee... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
Didn't mean to annoy you, though - just thought I had a chance to tweak deano a bit, nothing more. Which, it turns out, I bolloxed up. Humph. Must have more coffee...
That's the problem. deano isn't stupid. If you give him any room, he'll come back at you, spitting and snarling. If you have him stitched up, bang to rights and without a way to fight back, he says nowt.
It can be very frustrating when Party A wants a genuine debate and Party B wants a verbal punchbag. When the punchbag punches back of course, Party B is stuffed.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Oh well, deano has joined the thread, so everything will be about him now, and his baiting. End of thread really.
Oh, you mean because I don't agree with you you're going to sulk? You really are an adolescent teenager aren't you son?
I just think that most threads that you join, start to revolve around you, and your various attempts to bait people. It doesn't make me sulk; it's just a shame that a serious discussion is sabotaged again by you.
That may be true. But, having people pop up and say "hey, there's deano! Let's start talking about him! that'll be the end of the thread" really helps us to not talk about deano. Yeah right.
Gosh, it must be wonderful to have such an exalted sense of disinterest. How do you do it?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Like SS said, I'm not stupid. The response to my thread has been exactly as I thought it would go. The ship is nothing if not predictable.
If it were to be a debate SS, then some of my points need addressing.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I'm surprised that London didn't feature as the most ethnically diverse capital city. According to the London Councils there are over 300 languages spoken in London and:
quote:
[a]round 3.3 million of London's population are Black and Minority Ethnic (BAME) and 4.9 million are White. The White population of London is forecast to remain at around this number throughout the next decade and increase slightly thereafter to 5 million in 2041
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
That's the problem. deano isn't stupid.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that. Dead nuts wrong a lot of the time, yes. Stupid, no.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
A 100 different dialects or languages is nothing. It is true of where I live, in a city centre suburb of a small northern city in England. If there is a half way decent university then this is usually true due to the internationalism of Higher Education. However, there are also places in Africa where the capital cities can manage this with just the native population of the country. On that scale the only developed country with equivalent diversity is Canada.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
There was all that trouble under Ethelred Unraed, when the English took against the Danish immigrants because they took baths on a Saturday, and so the English girls found them more attractive in church* on Sunday. Leading to the St Brice's Day massacre of Danes, including, rather foolishly, the sister of the King of Denmark.
*As I heard the story - it is possible that they were not, at the time, Christian. But certainly whiter than the resident English.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
There was all that trouble under Ethelred Unraed, when the English took against the Danish immigrants because they took baths on a Saturday, and so the English girls found them more attractive in church* on Sunday. Leading to the St Brice's Day massacre of Danes, including, rather foolishly, the sister of the King of Denmark.
*As I heard the story - it is possible that they were not, at the time, Christian. But certainly whiter than the resident English.
Ahh, but they did become Christian after a sustained period of prosthelytising them. Are you suggesting we be allowed to do the same in the muslim communities.
I'm not saying it's a deal-breaker. In fact it might be a start.
Also, do read my original post in the thread about not being silly about what an immigrant is or that Britain is made of them. As I said, we know precisely the classification of immigrants we are talking about in 21st century Britain.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The key word here is 'apparent'. If your political opinions are based on prejudiced guesswork, then don't complain when decent folk call those opinions racist.
And if your argument against immigration is based on the Lump Labour Fallacy, then you are a moron. Bonus points if you then accuse the Left of economic illiteracy.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Plus if you think there is some liberal conspiracy to suppress views calling for tighter immigration controls, then you are a dangerously delusional moron. The Mail, the Express and the Telegraph are hardly samizdat publications.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
There was all that trouble under Ethelred Unraed, when the English took against the Danish immigrants because they took baths on a Saturday, and so the English girls found them more attractive in church* on Sunday. Leading to the St Brice's Day massacre of Danes, including, rather foolishly, the sister of the King of Denmark.
*As I heard the story - it is possible that they were not, at the time, Christian. But certainly whiter than the resident English.
Ahh, but they did become Christian after a sustained period of prosthelytising them. Are you suggesting we be allowed to do the same in the muslim communities.
I'm not saying it's a deal-breaker. In fact it might be a start.
I know of two churches in my city that took on clergy of Muslim ancestry specifically to help them minister to Muslim communities, so this idea that Muslims musn't be approached by the gospel is untrue. It would be truer to say that most churches have no serious interest in doing this work. It's extremely hard, I imagine. And if we're honest, most churches want to stay just as they are, with a perhaps a few more people in the pews and signed up for the rotas. Too many Muslim converts really wouldn't serve that purpose!
Regarding immigration in general, I do think that the growth in recent decades has been too high in some respects. Immigrants haven't been given the time or the means to get to know and feel comfortable with 'the British way of life' as more and more people arrive. Because they're all housed together they don't meet enough of the indigenous population - who, if they're able, are continuing to move away to less multicultural areas, which exacerbates these problems.
There are other issues to do with stress on public services and/or competing with indigenous people or longer established ethnic minorities for low-paid (and not so low-paid) jobs, but I suppose they have to be weighed up against the fact that employers are obviously happy to have a wider pool of applicants to choose from, and we all want businesses to do well and to fund economic growth....
Finally, it's hard for Christians to argue against immigration when immigrants have boosted church attendance. In the large cities it's not just the 'ethnic' churches that have benefited, but mainstream denominations too.
[ 30. October 2014, 19:54: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Gosh, it must be wonderful to have such an exalted sense of disinterest. How do you do it?
It's this spiritual exercise I've been developing, it goes something like .... oh, I'm just not interested enough to explain.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Orfeo--
FYI: it's "melting *pot*", not "melting point".
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Orfeo--
FYI: it's "melting *pot*", not "melting point".
My brain knows this. It's possible it doesn't always talk to my fingers.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Is Angela Merkel bluffing here? My view is that while she doesn't want to see the UK leave, she feels that an EU without Britain, but with free movement, will be stronger than an EU in which countries can demand special privileges.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Although an EU nation has the power to veto another nation joining the Union (well, that's what we were told a few months ago, in that case Spain would veto Scottish EU membership) I don't think a single nation (even Germany) has the power to eject another nation from the EU. So, there is a certain bluff there.
On the other hand she has a good point. The EU has evolved from it's roots as a free trade zone, but it is still at least a free trade zone and if it ceases to be a free trade zone then that marks a very significant change in the EU. An EU which is a free trade zone except for the UK would be a very strange beast that would put a lot of stress into the system, and cutting off the UK would create a lot less stress for the rest of the EU. Whether the loss of the UK would cost more than the benefits of not having a part of the EU that's not in the free trade zone is another question.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
The article doesn't say Merkel's going to try to eject the UK - it says that if Cameron tries to introduce a quota on immigration from EU countries, she's going to stop efforts to keep it from leaving. Perhaps that means no attempts to give Cameron any renegotiation successes to point to before the referendum he promised (the main article is behind a paywall.)
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
But the UK deciding to withdraw from free movement of people wouldn't mean also withdrawing from free trade.
And perhaps the problems in the UK are worse than elsewhere because the pro-EU campaign for the 1975 referendum lied - and the press was not behind those lies, it was in front of them.
Before he died Roy Jenkins admitted that political union was on the cards even before Britain gained EEC membership but that it was either never mentioned or denied because the politicians at the time knew the British public wouldn't stand for decision-making being taken away from Westminster. He also forbade civil servants releasing official figures which showed that over half a million jobs were lost to the EEC between the UK's entry and the referendum, and called Tony Benn a liar in debate when this subject came up.
If Mrs Merkel thinks she can blackmail UK politicians on this one she may be right - but the knock-on effect is likely to be even more support for the UK Out campaign.
A foolish move which will play badly with UK voters and will only add fuel to the anti-immigration lobby.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Does anyone really care any more what happened in 1975? I mean, even if the 1975 referendum was totally kosher, would it have predicted how the EU operated 39 years later? I doubt it.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
But the UK deciding to withdraw from free movement of people wouldn't mean also withdrawing from free trade.
Only if you limit what you mean by free trade. Free trade covers goods, services, and labour. If you restrict what can be traded within the EU then you have withdrawn from free trade in those areas.
The UK has of course benefited in the past from
being able to export labour (just think of all those Geordie builders in Germany, immortalised in Auf Weidersehn Pet). We also benefit from imported labour that stops our crops rotting unharvested in the fields and our hospitals being unstaffed.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If Mrs Merkel thinks she can blackmail UK politicians on this one she may be right - but the knock-on effect is likely to be even more support for the UK Out campaign.
It's not blackmail, it's a simple statement of fact. I'm no particular fan of Merkel but in this she's simply speaking the truth.
Cameron is increasingly making promises that are simply impossible to keep in a vain attempt to fight the UKIP erosion into the right wing of his own party.
It is fine to want out of the EU - for whatever reason - that is a perfectly reasonable position. The effects of such a move for the UK are not catastophic - that would be an exaggeration - but there would be a significant reduction in the UK economic output and trading with Europe (our biggest market) would mean doing it on their terms without the benefit of any say in the rules of the game.
I'm not particularly keen on much of what the EU does but any sane analysis says that (as things stand) we are much better off being part of it than not. And for me, that's the end of the debate.
Immigration is inevitable if you have free movement of labour. And, by the way, free movement of labour is a vital right for the majority of people if you allow the free movement of capital - to allow capital to move more freely than people, as well as being conceptually troubling (as surely people should have more rights than money?) is the reason why globalisation has been so negative for so many poor / poorer people.
And so we come back to the point that in areas of high immigration the polls shows us very little opposition - and in areas of low immigration is where people are worried about it. That tells me this is a propaganda war and a classic case of scape-goating.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
So Let's imagine a world where there is complete free movement of labour, and none for capital. What would happen?
Countries would compete against each other, offering high wages, good infrastructure, access to decent housing, free healthcare and education, and well-regulated banking sectors with low charges, in order to capture the best workers.
Now let's imagine a world where there is complete free movement of capital, but none for labour...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by l'organist:
quote:
But the UK deciding to withdraw from free movement of people wouldn't mean also withdrawing from free trade.
The two countries that are generally mentioned in the context of the UK leaving the EU but negotiation some kind of free trade agreement are Norway and Switzerland which have more EU migrants, per capita, than the UK does currently. If the UK withdraws from the EU and announces its intention to negotiate a Free Trade deal with the EU, the EU will say something like "Certainly sir, if you want access to our markets these are our terms". The terms will almost certainly include free movement of people. If it doesn't involve free movement of people it will involve giving up something that the UK regards as desirable but which the EU negotiators regard as less so, as a quid pro quo, or not getting a deal at all.
The standard criticism of the Nationalist case during the late referrendum was that Salmond was essentially insisting that the Scots could keep all the good bits of the Union whilst renouncing the Union itself. The 'free trade without EU membership or immigration' meme is based on a similar self-deception, that we can have all the good bits of membership of the EU without the pesky inconvenience of belonging to the EU. In the real world having one's cake and eating it is not a live option.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
There are generally two types who advocate liberal immicration policies. There first are idealist "No borders, man!" types, multiculturalists. They're usually well intentioned but idealism usually leads to tyranny or worse, the gas chamber. The second are globalists, economic liberals, seeking to exploit cheap foreign labour. I say no to both of them.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
They're usually well intentioned but idealism usually leads to tyranny or worse, the gas chamber.
Because idealism can go horribly wrong, we should therefore have no ideals?
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
The refugee policies of the major parties here are lies and bereft of any humanity.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
There are generally two types who advocate liberal immicration policies. There first are idealist "No borders, man!" types, multiculturalists. They're usually well intentioned but idealism usually leads to tyranny or worse, the gas chamber.
Do you have any examples of this, or are you talking out of your arse?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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