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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell hath no fury
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
This is basic googling on "meat and gender." It is that easy to find.
Unlike whichever part of your brain would process that meat is not a synonym for protein. That seems remarkably difficult to find.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Oh, just for the fun of it I have checked with the latest executive summary of a report from National Dietary Survey
quote:
from page 11
mean consumption of red meat for adults aged 19 to 64 years was 71g per day (86g for men and 56g for women) and for adults aged 65 years or over was
63g per day (75g for men and 54g for women)
The UK government guideline is we should consume less than 70g per day.
It is harder to look at levels of deficits in women, but the general concern over the level of B12 and Iron deficiency in women suggests that it is having some effect. The question is not whether women can get enough from other sources but whether they are.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
That is just the first paper I found, do you want another, another study, and yet another study.
I have to read your links: it's part of the job description. So you can at least try to make them relevant to the thesis that "women absorb proteins differently to men, leading to statistically different health outcomes" rather than "men eat more meat than women".
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
but the general concern over the level of B12 and Iron deficiency in women suggests that it is having some effect.
You know, it would really help if you actually knew what protein was. How many times do I have to say it? It's like I did that biochemistry degree for nothing.
Would it help if I gave you a list of amino acids? Or just a fucking definition of protein so you could understand that vitamins and minerals aren't included?
[ 27. November 2014, 11:24: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Yes, even I know that if you eat beans and rice together you get a complete protein. My article that started all this was a controlled study where men and women fasted for a few days, then all drank a protein shake, then waited a few hours, then had the protein levels in their muscles measured. The women hadn't been able to absorb as much protein from the shake.
I'm preparing a disgusting, bloody turkey for Hubs, mashed potatoes, broccoli, dressing, cheese sauce, pumpkin pie, baked beans for vegetarian son. I will eat all of it for my health's sake. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
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Jengie jon: Yes, meat eating differs by gender and while men tend to over indulge, women are at or below the recommended levels.
LOL, I'm very much below the 'recommended' level of eating meat.
You think I am making this up, then look at table 1 in this paper. There is Huffington Post article on how Veganism is overwhelming adopted by women. It is not difficult to demonstrate this.
Jengie
Some protein comes from meat
Some people who do not eat meat are female
Therefore, women need to eat more meat to keep muscle mass as they age.
QED. Obviously.
Now, a quick tour of Ariston's Funemploymentbudget Pantry would reveal a distinct lack of meat, red, white, or doesn't count for some liturgical purposes. That doesn't mean that Ye Olde Bachelor Padde is free of nut butters, pecans, cheese, black eyed peas, beans, dry roasted soybeans for snacking, and the occasional bit of cheese. I'd hardly call that lacking high quality protein. Many of my male friends who are amateur bike racers are vegetarian or vegan. A lack of meat doesn't seem to impair their results. Several pro racers, including those who race the monthlong grand tours, are vegetarian or vegan—and others will drop meat from their diets when riding in countries with less strict controls on tainted meat.
Frankly, equating a low-meat or meat free diet with weakness is balderdash. I don't see any way you can support this unstated and unexamined implicit premise.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And of course it's all based on the foolish notion that only meat can provide you with adequate protein.
Such a notion is not foolish per se. It is a reasonable hypothesis that should be tested by experiment and observation. And there is indeed some confirmation of this hypothesis.
quote:
Stephens FB, Marimuthu K, Cheng Y, Patel N, Constantin D, Simpson EJ, Greenhaff PL (2011) Vegetarians have a reduced skeletal muscle carnitine transport capacity. Am J Clin Nutr 94(3):938-44.
The aim of the current study was to test the hypothesis that vegetarians (lactoovovegetarians and vegans) have an increased capacity to retain supplemented L-carnitine to maintain normal skeletal muscle carnitine content and that this response is attributable to an enhanced muscle carnitine–transport capacity compared with that in omnivores. However, in contrast to this theory, we have shown, for the first time to our knowledge, that vegetarian skeletal muscle has a reduced capacity to uptake carnitine as evidenced by a lower muscle TC content, no change in the muscle carnitine content after an L-carnitine infusion during fasting or hyperinsulinemic conditions, and a lower OCTN2 mRNA and protein expression than in non vegetarians. ... With this in mind, one of the participants in the current study returned to an omnivorous diet after 11 y as a vegetarian and his plasma and muscle TC values had returned to normal after 6 mo. However, whether reduced muscle carnitine content in vegetarian volunteers has an effect on physiologic functions requires additional investigation, particularly because the muscle carnitine availability is rate limiting for fat oxidation and carbohydrate flux during exercise (5).
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm not a vegetarian or vegan. But the people I know who are vegetarian or vegan are not wasting away to nothing on account of a lack of protein.
Data is not the plural of anecdote.
quote:
Aubertin-Leheudre M, Adlercreutz H (2009) Relationship between animal protein intake and muscle mass index in healthy women. Br J Nutr 102(12):1803-10.
The aim of the present study was to examine the relationship between the type of dietary protein and muscle mass index in healthy Caucasian women. Even after correcting for total protein intake and SHBG concentration, which are known to be confounding variables (9,29), we observed a significant difference in the muscle mass index and animal protein intake between omnivorous and vegetarian women. We showed that the muscle mass index is strongly associated with animal protein intake, but not with plant protein intake or total protein intake. These results are interesting because the loss of muscle mass is known to be associated with functional limitations (30). In addition, this result is in accordance with the study by Lord et al. (7), who found a positive correlation between animal protein intake and the fat-free mass index in postmenopausal women. Even though vegetarian groups consumed the same amount of protein, the amount of plant protein intake seems insufficient to counteract the difference in muscle mass between groups. ... To our knowledge, the present study is the first to compare the effect of regular omnivorous and vegetarian diets on the muscle mass index in healthy Caucasian women. A great advantage of the present study is the collection of many samples across all four seasons and the total of 20 d dietary records. We conclude that a vegetarian diet seems to be associated with a lower muscle mass index in Caucasian women than is an omnivorous diet at the same protein intake. Furthermore, we report that a good indicator of muscle mass index in women seems to be the animal protein intake and not the total protein intake.
PubMed is your friend...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Many of my male friends who are amateur bike racers are vegetarian or vegan. A lack of meat doesn't seem to impair their results. Several pro racers, including those who race the monthlong grand tours, are vegetarian or vegan—and others will drop meat from their diets when riding in countries with less strict controls on tainted meat. Frankly, equating a low-meat or meat free diet with weakness is balderdash. I don't see any way you can support this unstated and unexamined implicit premise.
This tells us merely that a lack of meat consumption is not so detrimental to certain performances as to make them impossible (or at least noticeably harder). It does not tell us whether the same subjects on a different diet that includes meat would be able to perform significantly better. And furthermore, your specific examples are from sports with emphasis on endurance, i.e., the delivery of relatively low power over a long time. It is not a priori clear that there is no differentiation here according to the kind of performance, e.g., is it also the case that top weight lifting performance (high power over short time) can be achieved on a vegan diet? Since there are slow and fast twitch muscle fibres, it could be that diets affect these fibre systems differently. Or even more complicatedly, it could be that the difference is not in the muscular system, but in the trade-offs inherent in the performance. (There is a reason why sprinters are very muscular, and marathon runners are very wiry, even though both "run". A reduction of muscular capacity may be less noticeable in a sport where there are better trade-offs to be had between bulk and power.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Just when I was thinking, "How interesting! Ingo sometimes reminds me of Alan C."
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
PubMed is your friend...
If that's your idea of what a friend looks like, it explains a hell of a lot about your social skills.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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