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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Cheechus
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Fair enough. Haven't been cheap-shorted myself. But then I missed what many of you saw re 'uppity'. I thought it was a bit sneery, but more jokey than barbed, which is why I let it go. Will recalibrate my cheap-shot meter.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
]I don't think it's an issue whether Croesus probes and seeks to expose fallacies. He does these things which, as you say, others do also.
What is at issue is whether he does so constructively, or is only here to score cheap points. Now and again, I reckon he does the latter, but he's not alone in that either, and once one has established a reputation for cheapshots, people will scroll past.
Oh he's so not alone.
I think we (shipmates) tend to go easy on people who take cheap shots when they are supporting our opinion. I think some folk definitely use this dynamic to see how far they can go with the cheap shots. Haven't had enough interaction with Croesos to know if he is one of these folk, but these folk wouldn't be able to get away with the cheap shots if we didn't let them. (and understand I am talking about group dynamics, not hosting. Just for the record.)
I totally agree with both Porridge's and Mousethief's points regarding our need to call out racism without having to worry if someone will interpret that as being told they wear a white hood. But slapping someone in the face with a wet mackerel of a hot button word is not the way to go about having that discussion, and moron was well within his rights to get somewhat pissed about it, IMO.
Handing someone like moron a cause for grievance, BTW, is a great way to increase the rate of stomach ulcers in the Shipmate population. Because of course he is gonna milk that like a prize Holstien. IMO.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
Moron's brand of racism is similar to that of his most loved talk radio host: ignorant racism thinnly veiled under the guise of edgy 'straight talk.' As much as it chafes, I don't find it worth the trouble to call him out on it because he's well, you know... a moron.
That, and I think the only reason he says some of the stupid-ass shit that he says is because he's looking to get a reaction.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I dunno.
It may be different outside the US, but within these borders, claiming “I’m not a racist” (no “but” intended or implied here) is pretty much a knee-jerk response to any intimation by anyone that one is in fact a racist. (Granted, there are some people/groups who will proudly advance racist notions – neo-Nazis, troglodytes, etc.) Your mainstream citizen, though, knows that embracing racism Is Wrong, and will deny committing any such thought-crime.
Here’s the thing, though: a pretty deep, sharp divide continues to exist between and among US people, racially speaking. The divide is economic, cultural, educational, political, occupational, experiential, and on and on. White privilege actually exists (though it’s beginning to erode, much to the dismayed surprise of many white people, who are only just beginning to notice this). Many people simply do not experience ordinary everyday life in ways that closely resemble each other. People do not, as our ideals promise us, all have the same opportunities; the array of “choices” available to various people is just not the same. People cannot (and do not) make the same set of assumptions about the world when they live in high-crime inner-city neighborhoods run by gangs, versus isolated Native American reservations situated on land nobody else wants, versus nice, quiet suburbs with two-car garages and special SAT prep classes.
Most of us form our ideas about “the world” based on our own experience, and one result can be unconscious racism. No, white people are not running around lynching black people on any regular basis, or even necessarily badmouthing members of non-white groups. But when the one lone black kid in your son’s Ivory Soap high school class makes the team and your son doesn’t, isn’t it tempting to wonder if it’s due to affirmative action or even reverse racism rather than maybe the other kid has more basketball chops than your son does? When one of the only 3 Latinas (Asians, African-Americans, fill-in-as-appropriate) in your daughter’s class gets into Harvard and your daughter doesn’t, do similar questions arise? When the black female job candidate gets the promotion and you, a white male, don’t, do you wonder?
Is it racist to entertain such questions? How many whites find such questions arising for them? No white person with sense will ask such questions out loud; does that mean they’re not racist? I freely admit to being personally flummoxed by this stuff. When some white person says things like this to me privately, assuming I’m on the same page they are because I’m of the same race – itself a racist assumption – do I know how to respond? Do I always respond in a racist, or perhaps non-racist, way?
I rarely agree with moron on anything. I don’t know if he’s a racist. He posts things sometimes that strike me as coming from a position of white privilege. It’s possible Croesos is merely readier than I am to point out what he sincerely believes to be (and might actually be, but how do I know?) unconscious racism. There’s a fair amount of that infection going around these United States.
What a wonderful Purg post. What a pity it has so little to do with the fact that Croesos is ready to throw accusations at anyone and everything. Despite being so bloody long.
You do realise, of course, that just because everybody might have a "knee-jerk" response to say they're not a racist, doesn't mean the response is actually wrong every time. It's a bit like observing that every husband will react to being asked when he stopped beating his wife.
[ 13. December 2014, 21:13: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
With regard to assorted "isms," Croesos may be operating from the same basic assumption which I do: US culture has "ism-itis" as part of its DNA. As products of our culture, almost none of us can escape being "trained" into "isms," including racism (which also can include the kind of self-hatred which racism can induce). It therefore takes long, hard, deep work, including a lot of self-examination, to counteract.
Well he should keep his insults directed at Americans then. I refer you to the previous quote of my own exchange with him, NOT posted by me.
I would dearly love to go back to Seattle and find that young black guy who came up to me on the street, and then thanked me for engaging in conversation with him rather than avoiding him for being black, to tell him just how much of a racist I am.
That Ferguson thread has improved quite a bit in recent days, but I am still MIGHTILY pissed off about the way certain people, including Croesos, would basically bite the head off anyone who criticised the thoroughly racist assumption that in any confrontation between a black guy and a white guy that makes the news, it's the white guy's fault.
I'll say it again: thoroughly racist. It is the perfect illustration of everything about racism: stereotyping, ignoring individual differences, caricatures. And apparently it all becomes okay so long as you're "pulling an Evensong" and standing up for the oppressed minority rather than being on the side of the ones in power.
Some black people do commit crimes. Some black people do start fights - including fights they're bloody stupid to start because objectively they're likely to lose them. Some black people do contribute to their own deaths. They don't do any of these things because they're black, THEY DO THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE PEOPLE.
NOT ANGELS.
And Croesos puts up a complete bloody caricature of all white police officers as cigar-chomping baddies who laugh wickedly while executing blacks, fucking whores and slapping around faggots in between devising complicated behind the scenes plots to protect their power. Just once I'd like to see him acknowledge that white police officers are not the only ones who can give evidence that suits their own interests. Just once I'd like to see him acknowledge that a black guy, or anyone else on his 'team', has just as much interest in self-justification as a white one. But no, it seems that every bit of evidence on one side should be taken at face value, and every bit of evidence on the other side was planned in a complicated cover-up that would give a conspiracy theorist a hard-on.
[ 13. December 2014, 23:43: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Bloody hell, in fact there's a whole bunch of you who I would've loved to entertain at least the possibility that Darren Wilson was telling the truth as he saw it, or that Dorian Johnson wasn't, to explore that option, instead of assuming in a thoroughly racist fashion that the black kid's testimony must be preferred to the white cop's.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Because, I mean, moron *IS* a racist, or at least says myriad racist things and defends them to the hilt
Prove it.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
'unconscious racism' is rich. Could there be a more meaningless term?
And 'white privilege' is also rich. I've paid more dues than most.
And I've been discriminated against in the workplace solely because I'm a white male. It's one of the reasons I walked away from six figures over a decade ago.
And never looked back.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
'unconscious racism' is rich. Could there be a more meaningless term?
And 'white privilege' is also rich. I've paid more dues than most.
And I've been discriminated against in the workplace solely because I'm a white male. It's one of the reasons I walked away from six figures over a decade ago.
And never looked back.
Except now. Poor little rich man.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Poor little rich man.
I think rich little poor man is closer to the reality.
I reckon my net worth is equivalent or less than most people who post here.
On a tangent: is the desire to bring someone down to some level an inherently British thing?
Here, Bessie Bessie, here's your stall.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Poor little rich man.
I think rich little poor man is closer to the reality.
I reckon my net worth is equivalent or less than most people who post here.
On a tangent: is the desire to bring someone down to some level an inherently British thing?
I suppose there's a British 'thing' about bringing people down to earth and that we find some Americans a bit too keen to blow their own trumpet.
Nothing personal, unless stated otherwise.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
And I've been discriminated against in the workplace solely because I'm a white male. It's one of the reasons I walked away from six figures over a decade ago.
Are you sure it's because you're a white male?
Are you sure it's not because you act IRL anything like you act here?
Personally, I've never met a white male claiming discrimination that wasn't just pissed off because the playing field had just been leveled, and I'm damned sick and tired of conservatives in this country complaining that the most disadvantaged demographic is white, straight men.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I would dearly love to go back to Seattle and find that young black guy who came up to me on the street, and then thanked me for engaging in conversation with him rather than avoiding him for being black, to tell him just how much of a racist I am.
Dude, I was nice to a black guy once so I'm not a racist? Seriously?
quote:
I'll say it again: thoroughly racist. It is the perfect illustration of everything about racism: stereotyping, ignoring individual differences, caricatures.
No. What racism is chiefly about is POWER. Stereotyping, ignoring individual differences, and caricatures are part of prejudice. But there's a lot more to racism than prejudice.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[qb]I would dearly love to go back to Seattle and find that young black guy who came up to me on the street, and then thanked me for engaging in conversation with him rather than avoiding him for being black, to tell him just how much of a racist I am.
Dude, I was nice to a black guy once so I'm not a racist? Seriously?
No, I was THANKED for it once. That was the point. Jesus. I was nice to a black guy to a degree he apparently found was more than he usually experienced.
I imagine I was nice to quite a few African-Americans while I was in the USA. I wasn't particularly keeping a scorecard or a racial quota. I recall being somewhat rude to one because he was hassling me for a charity donation while I was trying to take a photo for two Korean* girls who had asked, and wouldn't wait for me to finish doing that before trying to get my attention. I don't think he liked me after I told him to get lost. Does that reset my score to zero if he didn't mention my race?
I don't get much opportunity for either being nice or nasty to African-Americans while not actually in America, so I'm really not going to apologise for having a limited number of anecdotes.
*As best I can recall. They might have been Japanese. I only met them for a couple of minutes over 18 months ago, and you know how these Asians all look alike.
[ 14. December 2014, 01:41: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What racism is chiefly about is POWER. Stereotyping, ignoring individual differences, and caricatures are part of prejudice. But there's a lot more to racism than prejudice.
It's an evolutionary argument, mousethief, but I think the first cause is a visceral wariness of those perceived to be different, or strangers. "They" are not "us" and therefore may, or do, represent a threat to "us". Sure, that develops into issues of power and prejudice. The power thing comes from "we need to defend what we have against those who threaten it, let's make sure we have the means". The prejudice thing comes from "because 'they' are not 'us', 'we' do not need to treat them in the same way as 'we' treat 'ourselves'".
Power can be used to reinforce prejudices, or it can be used generously to improve the lot of the disadvantaged. What matters with power is whether you use it or abuse it. What matters with prejudice is recognising its wrongness.
[ 14. December 2014, 07:51: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Barnabas, I think MT is making the often-made point that prejudice without power is often not described as racism because it doesn't do any harm. It is only once you have power that you can start to be racist. Unimplemented racism is in tree-falling-with-no-one-to-hear territory.
[ 14. December 2014, 10:10: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think we (shipmates) tend to go easy on people who take cheap shots when they are supporting our opinion. I think some folk definitely use this dynamic to see how far they can go with the cheap shots. Haven't had enough interaction with Croesos to know if he is one of these folk, but these folk wouldn't be able to get away with the cheap shots if we didn't let them. (and understand I am talking about group dynamics, not hosting. Just for the record.)
There's a lot of truth in this. I think too that people get a lot more leeway taking pops at Shipmates whose views are less popular too than they do attacking a golden boy/girl.
And, up until now, it's always narked me that Croesos has seemed to get away with his shitty behaviour.
It always seemed to me that he managed to tread this genius kind of a fine line - the frequency, severity and direction of his snide polarising misinterpretations were always exactly honed that they managed to stay below a lot of people's radar, and the people who he pissed off would be pissed-off-but-not-quite-enough-to-take-it-to-hell.
I can understand why people think moron's reason for this hell call seems a bit weak. But it's the quantity, not the magnitude of Croesos's snarky quips that means that it's overdue that he got called here. Guess he finally slipped and overstepped the line - never underestimate a moron.
There's no way he's coming down to answer any of this, though. Whenever he's been challenged on his comments in purg (I've done it - rather than call him to Hell, and I've seen others do so too) he just ignores it, waits a couple of days, then continues in a very-slightly-toned-down way. Then after a couple of weeks he's back to his MO. Like I said, genius. My guess is that there'll be a similar pattern with this hell call but on a slightly longer time scale. I'd love to be wrong about that, though.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Barnabas, I think MT is making the often-made point that prejudice without power is often not described as racism because it doesn't do any harm. It is only once you have power that you can start to be racist. Unimplemented racism is in tree-falling-with-no-one-to-hear territory.
If a white person looks offended when a black person sits down next to them, it may do harm to the black person, depending on how self-confident he is.
Ben Carson's mother told him that he didn't need to worry the way white people did. If he came into a room full of white people, each one might worry that he would sit down next to them. He could sit down wherever he liked without worrying.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I would dearly love to go back to Seattle and find that young black guy who came up to me on the street, and then thanked me for engaging in conversation with him rather than avoiding him for being black, to tell him just how much of a racist I am.
Dude, I was nice to a black guy once so I'm not a racist? Seriously?
Now you're doing the same trick C-whatever did with the "uppity" charge. You're taking what American liberals have considered a cliché remark --"I have black friends"-- and are using it a against someone from another country as some sort of stupid "proof," that they are racist. It's like beating a white person up for ordering fried chicken in front of an African American. Just because your own head is full of racial stereotypes doesn't mean that people who don't carry that list around are racist, but it hints that you are far too conscious of race and probably not as comfortable around African Americans as you would like to be.
quote:
quote:
I'll say it again: thoroughly racist. It is the perfect illustration of everything about racism: stereotyping, ignoring individual differences, caricatures.
No. What racism is chiefly about is POWER. Stereotyping, ignoring individual differences, and caricatures are part of prejudice. But there's a lot more to racism than prejudice.
No. Power and class and wealth are all separate things. Race may sometimes influence the ability to get power and wealth but it isn't the same thing. A black colonel in the army has more power than a white private, racism is not "power." There's a tendency, when you hate something, to attach every negative word in the dictionary, like the people after 9-11 calling the terrorists "cowards." It's just not accurate.
Racism is defined as the belief that every member of a race are the same and that one race is superior to another in certain areas. If you believe that all white people have power or all black people have rhythm or all white cops are crooked or all black people are well meaning, then you are a racist.
I think Orfeo's long post up thread is excellent. I think he's is our ship's version of Spock in his ability to see subjects without emotion. It's a quality that has me arguing with him a lot, but something, plus his being from another country, that makes him very insightful on this subject.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Barnabas, I think MT is making the often-made point that prejudice without power is often not described as racism because it doesn't do any harm. It is only once you have power that you can start to be racist. Unimplemented racism is in tree-falling-with-no-one-to-hear territory.
But I disagree. Racism is prejudice based on perceived race.
Some feel the need to add power to the equation, but that is not required by the basic definition.
Those with power have the resource to do more damage, but this does not mean those who have less can do none. Frequently this also disadvantages those of lesser power.
[ 14. December 2014, 13:14: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
lilBuddha
I do like your sig. It is very appropriate to any consideration of racism or any other forms of oppression. Plus I agree your definitional understanding.
I really had no idea Croesos had attracted this kind of anti-fan club BTW. I wonder if he had?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Same here-- this is all news to me. Which is what led me to guess that 1. His snark has been serving popular sentiment and therefore ( probably unconsciously) people accomodated it, or 2. He crafted his snark to support statements made by " Golden Boys/ Girls" that nobody wanted to challenge. Why go after mild snark when you agree with the larger issue, I suppose, and run the risk of a Ruth or an Alan up your grill? I can see myself making that decision. Or at least, a certain version of myself.
Again, he's hardly the only one who does this, but it's always bemused me-- I tend to stereotype Shipmates as some of the most freakishly intelligent and perceptive people I know, but even the smartest of us will miss this particular trick, I guess.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'm none too keen on him, either. He's on my short list of "just scroll by" posters, mainly because any attempt to engage with him results in multiple assholish attacks and a refusal to argue in good faith. Better to just ignore the provocation.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Barnabas62,
Thank you, that is why I chose the quote.
Regarding Crœsos; I am not at all shocked that conservatards like moron don't like him, and even that more reasonable conservatives also do not. I have viewed him as persistent, and perhaps a little more likely to perceive ill intent in uncertain circumstance. Perhaps because there are issues in which I am prone to that myself.
And perhaps because we are often on the same side.
Still not convinced that he is a troll. Keeping always in mind, that people are rarely either good or bad.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But I disagree. Racism is prejudice based on perceived race.
Well there are different definitions and one is free to disagree. I think prejudice alone fits with a dictionary definition but not with legal definitions or many sociological definitions. Which is fine, one can hold varying definitions, but MT's definition is not unusual either.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And perhaps because we are often on the same side.
Still not convinced that he is a troll. Keeping always in mind, that people are rarely either good or bad.
I'm not convinced he's a troll,either, but I do think snark-- while loads of fun-- is much easier than confronting someone else's argument while giving it serious consideration. And I tend to have more respect for people who make that effort.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But I disagree. Racism is prejudice based on perceived race.
Well there are different definitions and one is free to disagree. I think prejudice alone fits with a dictionary definition but not with legal definitions or many sociological definitions. Which is fine, one can hold varying definitions, but MT's definition is not unusual either.
No, not unusual. But the legal definition misses the harm done to the less powerful group done to itself by its own racism.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And I tend to have more respect for people who make that effort.
damn
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Girl, you call yourself on your own shit on a regular basis. That makes you the Albert Schweitzer of the internet. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
Dear mt
I also wanted to say something about soc
Holy Shit I just saw a black person!
This post will have to wait as I need to go oppress them because I hate them. More later.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
I find it pretty damn odd that there is discussion of whether someone who has been on these boards for years is a troll. We must all be pretty fucking slow on the uptake if it's taken that long for the light to dawn. Pretty much everybody gets snarky from time to time and/or occasionally goes for a cheap shot. A side order of snarkery doth not a troll make.
Most of Croesos' contributions on that thread look pretty reasonable. Furthermore, in the context of another poster making racist comments up-thread, the suggestion that "insolence" might be translated as "uppity" seems quite justifiable. I can understand why it pissed moron off but, you know, lie down with dogs and you'll get up with fleas.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Regarding Crœsos; I am not at all shocked that conservatards like moron don't like him, and even that more reasonable conservatives also do not. I have viewed him as persistent, and perhaps a little more likely to perceive ill intent in uncertain circumstance. Perhaps because there are issues in which I am prone to that myself.
And perhaps because we are often on the same side.
Still not convinced that he is a troll. Keeping always in mind, that people are rarely either good or bad.
lB, people like you, Kelly, Porridge and many others are a joy to discuss and debate with. A lot of the time I agree with you, but even when I don't, I always feel like you're debating in good faith, and I always feel I can learn something from you (even if I'm just lurking, which I do more than I post anyhow).
Ever since the thread I mentioned earlier, where Croesos kept misrepresenting me - each time I pointed it out and explained why - with no real response - until I finally made the point that he'd done it over 12 times on that one thread - again, no response - I have given up trying to engage with him. Maybe I should have just called him to Hell then, but I didn't, and maybe it's a bit pathetic venting now so much later on, but hey ho. It's probably because ever since then I've been aware and noticed how many times he's done it to other Shipmates (for example, I remember Dark Knight's experience for that reason).
Don't know if he's a troll or what. I doubt it - he does seem passionate and interested in issues (and as I've said, is insightful and well researched). I think it's more what Orfeo said - that he divides posters on a thread into 'goodies' and 'baddies', and if he's decided you're a baddie will project a whole bunch of other stuff onto what you say because you're a baddie. For someone like me, who tends to be a devil's advocate, see everyone's point of view, and nuance in everything, I probably don't fit well within that.
And I wouldn't describe myself as conservative. So I don't think it's just about a left/right divide, though I'm sure he's more ruthless with non-liberals.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
I don't think he's a troll in the sense that he's only looking to get some kind of OTT emotional response with some of the crap he posts. But I do think he's incredibly nasty in terms of deliberately misrepresenting his opponents' positions in order to further his agenda. (Either that or he really believes it: which means he's either stupid or mean or both).
Years ago Eliab of all people called him to hell on my behalf because of how he was posting on a Purgatory thread.
I had too much RL shit going on in my life to want an online war with a stranger, but I've always been thankful for the gesture.
He's long been on my 'do not even bother to try to engage' list.
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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
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Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
It always seemed to me that he managed to tread this genius kind of a fine line - the frequency, severity and direction of his snide polarising misinterpretations were always exactly honed that they managed to stay below a lot of people's radar, and the people who he pissed off would be pissed-off-but-not-quite-enough-to-take-it-to-hell.
This. Absolutely. This particular not-actually-that-conservative-thanks Shipmate has experienced low-level irritation for a long time.
Plus, y'know, for the last couple of years it's felt as if someone needed to REALLY piss me off before a Hellhost starting a hellcall would be a good idea. Otherwise it just looks like I'm trying to drum up business.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
It always seemed to me that he managed to tread this genius kind of a fine line - the frequency, severity and direction of his snide polarising misinterpretations were always exactly honed that they managed to stay below a lot of people's radar, and the people who he pissed off would be pissed-off-but-not-quite-enough-to-take-it-to-hell.
This. Absolutely. This particular not-actually-that-conservative-thanks Shipmate has experienced low-level irritation for a long time.
Plus, y'know, for the last couple of years it's felt as if someone needed to REALLY piss me off before a Hellhost starting a hellcall would be a good idea. Otherwise it just looks like I'm trying to drum up business.
It isn't unheard of. Mine had considerable impact.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
And I wouldn't describe myself as conservative. So I don't think it's just about a left/right divide, though I'm sure he's more ruthless with non-liberals.
That's interesting. You self-declare as "someone like me, who tends to be a devil's advocate, see everyone's point of view, and nuance in everything".
I think that's a classic liberal position.
Part of the trouble these days is that the very word "liberal" has become associated with a partisan adherence to a particular anti-conservative agenda. Whereas originally it meant being generous and giving to others.
"I disagree with what you say, but would fight to the death for your right to say it."
Now there are limits to that, as lilBuddha's sig reminds us. Being liberal does involve sticking up for mice being trodden on by elephants. But it doesn't, at least initially, involve dividing the world into "us" and "them".
I think orfeo's desire, which I share, to have court cases looked at on merit, and not be quick to judge on the basis of visceral "us and them" stereotypes, is also a liberal attitude BTW. In general we believe that fairness gets lost when stereotypes are used to judge, and that's particularly important in individual court cases.
The big hits on the Ferguson thread for me have related to the way power may be used in the grand jury process to skew findings. Note that word "may". The assumption that it always happens when police officers' actions are being investigated "because they are police officers, so that would happen wouldn't it", is presumption of guilt, certainty that the "fix" is in. And that's not fair either. Even if it turns out to be true when tested.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I don't think he's a troll, but I think people who point out how intelligent he is are not helping his case. It's precisely because he's intelligent that we can be reasonably sure the misrepresentations and silly extrapolations are wilful mischief-making, rather than honest misunderstandings.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
PS Note definition 1.
"Willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one’s own".
Note also the definitions of liberality.
(xposted, obviously)
[ 15. December 2014, 09:21: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Of course, here in Australia, the Liberals are our main party on the right wing of politics. And somewhat tending to push further right in recent years, to the point where their former leader Malcom Fraser (Prime Minister in the 70s and 80s) resigned from the party in disgust.
Not that Australia as a whole is terribly right wing in an international scheme of things.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I'm probably tilting at windmills, orfeo, but it would be good to lose the left/right political overtones and recognise that "liberal" in the sense of generous and giving, willing to see other points of view etc, is worth encouraging in people of any political persuasion - and none. In that old-fashioned sense, I find there are liberal and illiberal people across the political and religious spectrums.
Given what I see as misuse and political commandeering, I prefer "generous" and "mean" these days.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I'm merely confirming your point that "liberal" is not a synonym for left-wing. I don't exactly have any power to change the name of the party currently in government.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm merely confirming your point that "liberal" is not a synonym for left-wing. I don't exactly have any power to change the name of the party currently in government.
That's OK, we British have a Conservative Party out to change things and a Labour Party that no longer has much in common with organised labour. As for the 'Liberal Democrats' I'm afraid they failed on both counts after May 2010.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
Thanks Barney. I was a bit clumsy with my language - I'm aware that liberal and left-of-centre aren't synonomous. I guess they just often go together in individuals so get lumped together. I'd describe myself as both anyhow, and I really like your description of liberal.
ISTM that we use words to describe these idealogies are a bit limited and don't quite do the job that's needed - especially when you think that the liberal/conservative theological categories are different to the political ones. But what we have we're stuck with, given popularist definitions.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I don't think he's a troll, but I think people who point out how intelligent he is are not helping his case. It's precisely because he's intelligent that we can be reasonably sure the misrepresentations and silly extrapolations are wilful mischief-making, rather than honest misunderstandings.
While "mistaken" and "deliberate" are certainly two of the available explanations for Croesos's behavior, I doubt they're the only ones. I see him as having less tolerance for or patience with posters who, like many of us, hold views that aren't necessarily logically consistent with each other. He is pretty aggressive about pointing such inconsistencies out, and does this by attacking a poster's position (and in this case, a poster) rather than questioning or discussing the stance.
Perhaps he's mostly guilty of assuming that we're all as smart as he is (note to Croesos, in case you're reading this: I am not as smart as you), are aware of these inconsistencies, and pigheadedly stick to them anyway. In short, he attacks what he thinks is pigheadedness, when in reality many of us simply haven't worked out every single detail of our belief systems / moral values / political stances in ways that present a seamless, coherent front to the world.
Whether this is something Croesos himself has done, I have no idea. But it seems to be a sort of unstated expectation of his for other posters.
[ 15. December 2014, 13:23: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I’m not sure Croesos does fly under the radar, actually. I get the impression I’m one of a lot of people who find him very, very tiresome. I never get the impression that he’s interested in a genuine discussion in good faith. He’s just here for more-liberal-than-thou points scoring. OTOH, those of us who get pissed off by him don’t compare notes all that often to come to a consensus about what an insufferable bore he is.
Like I said before, I think it’s a credit to the tolerance of the ship that he doesn’t get called to hell more often.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I see him as having less tolerance for or patience with posters who, like many of us, hold views that aren't necessarily logically consistent with each other. He is pretty aggressive about pointing such inconsistencies out, and does this by attacking a poster's position (and in this case, a poster) rather than questioning or discussing the stance.
On the contrary, it is his attacks that are not logically consistent. He is regularly guilty of taking someone's statement of "not A" and declaring that this obviously means they believe B.
To put it simply, if one were to say one wasn't fond of dogs, a fiercely pro-canine Croesos would be the first person on the Ship to label you a cat-lover.
[ 15. December 2014, 14:03: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The big hits on the Ferguson thread for me have related to the way power may be used in the grand jury process to skew findings. Note that word "may". The assumption that it always happens when police officers' actions are being investigated "because they are police officers, so that would happen wouldn't it", is presumption of guilt, certainty that the "fix" is in. And that's not fair either. Even if it turns out to be true when tested.
I do not think it is a presumption of guilt. It is a presumption that self-preservation is the more important factor. The presumption that guilt is irrelevant at the start.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Years ago Eliab of all people called him to hell on my behalf because of how he was posting on a Purgatory thread.
Are you sure? I've called a few people to Hell but I don't remember Crœsos being one of them.
Mind you, he fits all the criteria for someone I would call to Hell - someone I think sufficiently interesting and worth engaging with that I'd care enough to complain about perceived misconduct that makes that difficult - so you might be right, but I don't recall it. Are you sure it wasn't someone else?
(Since I'm here, I agree with just about everyone else that Crœsos has a habit of misrepresenting other people's views rather than trying to understand what they are saying and why. I guess many of us do that a bit, but it is more noticeable with him than most. When I argue with him I see that as a reason to try to make clear exactly what I am saying, which is a useful discipline, but there have been times when I haven't posted a nuanced disagreement with him, because I knew I'd have to say the same thing at least twice to get a minor point across. But despite that, I see him as a net contributor here. His serious challenges (as opposed to the irritating misreps) are well made and worth careful consideration. And sometimes, even his cheapshots strike home, like this one clearly did.)
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The big hits on the Ferguson thread for me have related to the way power may be used in the grand jury process to skew findings. Note that word "may". The assumption that it always happens when police officers' actions are being investigated "because they are police officers, so that would happen wouldn't it", is presumption of guilt, certainty that the "fix" is in. And that's not fair either. Even if it turns out to be true when tested.
I do not think it is a presumption of guilt. It is a presumption that self-preservation is the more important factor. The presumption that guilt is irrelevant at the start.
It's also a presumption that a self-preserving story is told because it's self-preserving rather than because it's true. As if it can't be both at once.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Of course both can be true at once. But a system which cannot be trusted to seek justice first is right to be questioned each and every time.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Of course both can be true at once. But a system which cannot be trusted to seek justice first is right to be questioned each and every time.
You are perilously close to a confirmation bias circularity.
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