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Source: (consider it) Thread: Cheechus
Dave W.
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# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In New York, I know that there have at least been moves to work on police training and procedures so that they don't apply anything like a choke hold. That's template-change, not document-change.

Oh is it, now?

Choke holds have been banned in NYC for more than 20 years.

Yeah, I know. I've known that for weeks.

But if you can't understand the difference between having a ban on the books and making sure that police are TRAINED properly so that they wouldn't do anything close to a choke hold, I can't help you with your particular kind of stupid.

Oh, of course! TRAINING! They must never have thought of that! Now that you say it, it's so obvious - what could they have been thinking?! They changed the policy, but nobody ever thought of changing the training!

Yes, I'm sure that's what must have happened.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Fine, Dave. Let's just accept that cops are arsreholes who are going to apply chokeholds even when you tell them not to because they're evil and they get a hard-on at the thought of hurting a black man.

Remind me again why YOU think there's any prospect of change and therefore some point to protesting?

[ 19. December 2014, 12:52: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Fine, Dave. Let's just accept that cops are arsreholes who are going to apply chokeholds even when you tell them not to because they're evil and they get a hard-on at the thought of hurting a black man.

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what Dave said. False dichotomy much? [Disappointed]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Fine, Dave. Let's just accept that cops are arsreholes who are going to apply chokeholds even when you tell them not to because they're evil and they get a hard-on at the thought of hurting a black man.

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what Dave said. False dichotomy much? [Disappointed]
What he's said is that there is already a ban on chokeholds, and there must have already been training on not doing chokeholds, and yet Garner still died from a chokehold. What other conclusion do you want me draw other than he's saying that individual police are fully aware they're not supposed to do chokeholds, and why, and what to do instead, and yet still do chokeholds?

That certainly seems to be what his sarcastic sniping means. That the training is not improvable - because he's being derisive about a proposal to improve training. Which can only mean that the police got fully effective training but chose to ignore it.

[ 19. December 2014, 13:21: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Barnabas62
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RooK's right of course. I'd say the grand jury systemic weaknesses make its use open to all kinds of prosecutorial abuse. Including explaining away racially motivated crime or use of excessive force by on duty police officers.

If that is perceived to be true by any group of citizens of course they should protest. Despite the concession of releasing info re Ferguson, that release has hardly allayed fears about unfairness.

None of which proves specific guilt or innocence, but that's not the point at issue when considering protest.

[ 19. December 2014, 13:26: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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JoannaP
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# 4493

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Indeed, it seems often the requirement by organizations to overcome their inertia is the other way around in favour of the specific rather than the general.

"Your IT support really sucks" often doesn't achieve organizational change.

"This printer at this workstation doesn't work and when I called the IT guy he said so what" might trigger some questioning. Several similar incidents might trigger attention by the head of IT.

But who is in charge of the police in the USA? Is there one person who has authority over both the NYPD and the cops in Ferguson? In this country, the answer is obviously the Home Secretary but things are so decentralised in the States that I am not sure there is an equivalent. If there is no head of IT with authority to fix the systemic problem, then what should one do?

--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

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jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
But who is in charge of the police in the USA? Is there one person who has authority over both the NYPD and the cops in Ferguson? In this country, the answer is obviously the Home Secretary but things are so decentralised in the States that I am not sure there is an equivalent. If there is no head of IT with authority to fix the systemic problem, then what should one do?

To some degree the Department of Justice and the Attorney General are the analogous powers here - but they don't have direct operational control of the various state and local police forces, only the more general controls of Federal regulations and filing civil rights lawsuits against specific agencies that violate them.

Does the Home Secretary in the UK have the power to give direct orders to a local constabulary?

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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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Dave W.
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# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Fine, Dave. Let's just accept that cops are arsreholes who are going to apply chokeholds even when you tell them not to because they're evil and they get a hard-on at the thought of hurting a black man.

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what Dave said. False dichotomy much? [Disappointed]
What he's said is that there is already a ban on chokeholds, and there must have already been training on not doing chokeholds, and yet Garner still died from a chokehold. What other conclusion do you want me draw other than he's saying that individual police are fully aware they're not supposed to do chokeholds, and why, and what to do instead, and yet still do chokeholds?

That certainly seems to be what his sarcastic sniping means. That the training is not improvable - because he's being derisive about a proposal to improve training. Which can only mean that the police got fully effective training but chose to ignore it.

Once again you struggle with a caricature of your own devising. For someone so convinced of his own subtly nuanced thinking, you are comically ready to ascribe extreme views to others, though in your case it's not clear whether you do it out of bone-headedness or rhetorical spite.

Of course they should try to improve police training. I'm mocking you for thinking that yet another call for improved training is some kind of "template-changing" move.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
Does the Home Secretary in the UK have the power to give direct orders to a local constabulary?

Pretty much. She can call in the Chief Constable of the force in question and essentially yell at him until he sorts it. A Parliamentary committee can do the same thing, but it's televised, too.

There are also other mechanisms: the Independent Police Complaints Commission for individual cases of wrong-doing, the elected Police and Crime Commissioner for a force can also investigate, and there's always judicial review by a judge.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Indeed, it seems often the requirement by organizations to overcome their inertia is the other way around in favour of the specific rather than the general.

"Your IT support really sucks" often doesn't achieve organizational change.

"This printer at this workstation doesn't work and when I called the IT guy he said so what" might trigger some questioning. Several similar incidents might trigger attention by the head of IT.

[Overused]

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
Does the Home Secretary in the UK have the power to give direct orders to a local constabulary?

Pretty much. She can call in the Chief Constable of the force in question and essentially yell at him until he sorts it. A Parliamentary committee can do the same thing, but it's televised, too.

There are also other mechanisms: the Independent Police Complaints Commission for individual cases of wrong-doing, the elected Police and Crime Commissioner for a force can also investigate, and there's always judicial review by a judge.

Thanks.

In theory, the AG or Congress could do much the same here, but talking is about where it ends -- their ability to force change is fairly limited, except by a) the aforementioned lawsuits, and b) Congress' power to change/limit Federal funding to states and local governments.

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Basically you're saying it's a waste of time to even call the IT guy.

No, I'm saying they're calling the IT guy and saying "fix my document", and that doing this from to time is a hell of a lot less effective than calling him and saying "we need to fix the template".
The IT guy will fix the template, not when the end-users become a pain the in arse with their phone calls, but when his line manager is told by some executive to find someone to fix the template because the exec is receiving all these pain-in-the-arse phone calls.
Again, Montgomery. Also, spot on.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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JoannaP
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# 4493

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
There are also other mechanisms: the Independent Police Complaints Commission for individual cases of wrong-doing, the elected Police and Crime Commissioner for a force can also investigate, and there's always judicial review by a judge.

Prompted by Doc Tor's post, I looked up the IPCC - I hadn't realised that, by law, the commissioners cannot be former police officers! Given that we have a national, independent body which is mandated to mount an investigation whenever a person dies after coming into contact with the police, I find it incomprehensible that nobody knows how many people are killed by US police. I assume that setting up an equivalent of the IPCC in America would breach States' rights or be unconstitutional in some way, but it seems to work pretty well for us.

--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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I think that is exactly the kind of thing people are screaming for-- a civilian review board, and much harsher punishment for abusive law enforcers. Put simply, law enforcement should have a level of accountability that is directly proportional to the amount of respect, autthority, and trust we are expected to give them.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Barnabas62
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It would have to go to Federal level, regardless of State screaming and differences in law between states.

Given the current and future foreseeable majorities in both Senate and House, I wouldn't hold my breath, whether the next President is GOP or Democrat. The capacity for political logjam would see to that.

As a matter of realpolitik, it might be better to encourage more States to look at abandoning state grand juries in favour of preliminary public hearings. A bit of politicking might get that done I suppose. Plus some test case bounced up to Supreme Court re state self-defence laws. There might be a deprivation of Civil Rights case, I suppose. I'm not sure Ferguson would be a good test case, but maybe NYC would be? I really don't like that grand jury finding in that case. (Not thought through, those ideas, just running up flags to see if they are worth saluting).

But it's hard to see any quick course of action. All of which I think will give legs to ongoing protests against the perceived unfairness of the current situation. And further damaging loss of trust.

[ 19. December 2014, 19:06: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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Yeah, I guess my point is, there is no quick course of action. There is a very slow and frustrating course of action. (Se Doc Tor's post I quoted.) But more power to the people who take it.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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The Federal Justice department has released reports on several cities; Cleveland, Seattle, New York saying their policing violates civil rights. The results, like the requests for a civilian review board are swallowed up.
The report in New York pointed to brutality by the guards and locking youth in solitary confinement. The mayor has ordered that solitary confinement for 16 and 17 year olds no long be allowed. Part of that is a response to this case 16 year old in solitary confinement for years where the prosecution kept requesting "one day delays" that took six months to reschedule because they had lost their witness.
In response to the federal report he said that some of the remedial actions were being applied, but that the situation had been happening for over ten years and would take time to fix. The federal prosecutor said there's a lot more to do that hasn't been addressed by the actions of the state and he's pursuing legal action. The head of the employees union has in the past successfully had prosecutors attempting to deal with guard brutality replaced. The current action and even the current mayor's election (he has a Black wife and a son) are in fact being driven by the protests. None of this made substantial progress before the protests. None of the facts here are news, just unimportant until the citizenry makes it so. The system doesn't fix itself.


The FBI was told to collect statistics on police killing of black suspects. All analysis says the statistics substantially under repot those homicides. And that's been just fine for a a long, long time, despite Congress mandating the collection statistics.

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Porridge
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# 15405

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Frankly, I think there's an OZ/US cultural misunderstanding here, if I can assume that orfeo is in any way representative of his culture, and the posters arguing with him are at all representative of theirs.

The US was essentially "born" out of protest; that, and an innate suspicion of government power (with efforts to balance it and keep it in check) is built into our Constitution and is part of the US DNA. We protested getting taxed when we felt we weren't fairly represented in the tax-levying process, and we all know where that led.

I'd recommend a review of the latest edition of Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States. A great many important changes in this country's political and economic progress came about in part through protest.

I'm embarrassingly ignorant of Australian history, but I'm pretty sure it didn't involve a bloody, all-out revolution (perhaps the most extreme form of protest) against the Mother Country at the outset.

[ 19. December 2014, 19:32: Message edited by: Porridge ]

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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orfeo

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# 13878

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Three things:

1. Dave W, learn the difference between whether something is a change of the template and whether something is a large change. I said template-changing, not game-changing.

2. Australia is an 1890s free trade agreement.

3. I'm taking a break.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Porridge

Don't think so! Australians do different as a matter of course! Comes from being upside down cf us Northern Hemisphere types.

Australian Football is played on a circular pitch wth a centre square rather than a centre circle. They invented 'sledging' as a way of intimidating cricket opponents. They celebrate rebels and sometimes even elect them. Not a conformist people and that's what I like about them.

All generalisations of course. Dangerous things they are. Some Australian will come along and do a bit of 'sledging' directed at me AND you ...

[ 19. December 2014, 21:20: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Porridge
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# 15405

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Porridge

Don't think so! Australians do different as a matter of course! Comes from being upside down cf us Northern Hemisphere types.

Australian Football is played on a circular pitch wth a centre square rather than a centre circle. They invented 'sledging' as a way of intimidating cricket opponents. They celebrate rebels and sometimes even elect them. Not a conformist people and that's what I like about them.

All generalisations of course. Dangerous things they are. Some Australian will come along and do a bit of 'sledging' directed at me AND you ...

Generalizations are dangerous; but where did I suggest that Australians are a bunch of conformists? All I'm suggesting is that, culturally speaking, Americans may be more comfortable with political protest as a means of demanding change. It's far from the only method of fostering social change; it may be one of the slower, more cumbersome, more disruptive and least agreeable of the available methods.

I have no idea what Australians typically do when faced with a need for change, and I wasn't attempting to suggest how they might act (because I don't know). I do know that protest is a pretty typical American response in such situations.

--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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moron
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# 206

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On reflection I've decided to change my persona a bit even though in my admittedly limited defense I believe I more often than not reacted in kind rather than provoked. I could be wrong about that.

I regret any inconvenience and thanks for the education.

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mousethief

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# 953

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Okay help me out. What the hell is "the template" here? It's clearly being used metaphorically but I'm not sure what it stands for in real-world terms.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Okay help me out. What the hell is "the template" here? It's clearly being used metaphorically but I'm not sure what it stands for in real-world terms.

Whether real or a metaphorical, templates are used to constrain responses to those which the authors of the template want to understand. They are all about fitting things in nice, neat boxes.

Me? Template hater?

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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moron
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# 206

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mt: I did say a bit. [Smile]

Remember those myriad times you goaded me by suggesting I should call you into Hell and you finally called me? How well did that all end for you? Did you feel pretty good about yourself after that?

Just curious as I'm one of those old school dinosaurs who believes blatant lying to wind up is tacky, at best, not particularly clever and wears thin exceptionally quickly.

And you'll need to put some WD40 on that to pull in the lunkers. [Big Grin]


Much more importantly: I've mentioned Steven Van Zandt on these fora before. A guy I like who has a wicked sense of humour encouraged me to watch Lilyhammer on Netflix (no affiliation) and it is bust a gut funny. The writing is superb and Little Steven really personifies a brash rude smart mafia type who transforms Lillehammer in good but *ahem* rather unorthodox fashion.

If you're a fan of the series you'll recall the _Night Ravens__episode where Frank, after he realizes applying tape to a baseball bat is frowned upon by the Night Raven poobah backs down and says 'Aaah... just fucking witcha'. [Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Okay help me out. What the hell is "the template" here? It's clearly being used metaphorically but I'm not sure what it stands for in real-world terms.

we're spining off an analogy orfeo used a few pages back,about a document template escaping quality control and his needing to call IT to point it out, while other people simply corrected the template's typo and went on with things.

So, some of us are using the idea of "the template" as a quick way to say "the overall function of the law enforcement system, not a one-off incident."

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Porridge

Don't think so! Australians do different as a matter of course! Comes from being upside down cf us Northern Hemisphere types.

Australian Football is played on a circular pitch wth a centre square rather than a centre circle. They invented 'sledging' as a way of intimidating cricket opponents. They celebrate rebels and sometimes even elect them. Not a conformist people and that's what I like about them.

All generalisations of course. Dangerous things they are. Some Australian will come along and do a bit of 'sledging' directed at me AND you ...

Generalizations are dangerous; but where did I suggest that Australians are a bunch of conformists? All I'm suggesting is that, culturally speaking, Americans may be more comfortable with political protest as a means of demanding change. It's far from the only method of fostering social change; it may be one of the slower, more cumbersome, more disruptive and least agreeable of the available methods.

I have no idea what Australians typically do when faced with a need for change, and I wasn't attempting to suggest how they might act (because I don't know). I do know that protest is a pretty typical American response in such situations.

Well part of the reason protest is pretty typical is, as you stated, the way lawmalers play legislative kickball with the whole state rights/ federal oversight dynamic. That goes back to the Revolution, too.

And I was thinking something along the lines of what you wrote, Porridge, but it was more bitter envy-based, as in-- maybe instead of shaking your collective heads at the American tenancy to protest, y'all lucky Ozzies and Brits should be thankful you have these nifty federal oversight bodies that help keep audacious cop behavior somewhat in check.

Not that stuff doesn't happen on your turf, but at least you have someone specific you can complain to. We protest because we ARE the oversight committee.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Three things:

1. Dave W, learn the difference between whether something is a change of the template and whether something is a large change. I said template-changing, not game-changing.

"Talking about revising the training" is already part of the existing 20+ year old template. It's pathetic that you're so impressed by it.
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Palimpsest
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In Seattle recently there was a policeman who wrote 80 of the 100 odd tickets for smoking pot in public to Black homeless people. The tickets were decorated with sarcastic comments to the City Attorney like "Smoke this, Ed".

When the facts were known and "protested" the embarrassed new Police Chief cancelled all of the outstanding tickets. The discipline for the policeman was announced; no punishment since that was too difficult to do with the current agreement with the Police Officers Guild , but he would be given "training" on how not to write frivolous tickets.

Yes, indeed. The new solution is more training.

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Barnabas62
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Fair points, Porridge and Kelly. And as Kelly says. federal/state football games operate against speedy legal changes. So do House/Senate/Presidential standoffs which only go away if there is bipartisan consensus in favour of urgent action.

So protesting is indeed 'independent oversight' by some of the people. 'Up with this we will not put. How long? Too long!'

I do think you'd be better off with an independent Police Complaints Authority with teeth but it's pretty hard to see how you get that any time soon. Grievances do need airing, but they also need authorised independent auditing to provide authoritative grounds for fault-finding and change.

[ 20. December 2014, 07:38: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Palimpsest
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This whole expert advice that protest is a waste of time reminds me of the answer given by King's Letter from the Birmingham Jail

quote:
We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."

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Barnabas62
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I'm no great fan of Warren E Burger but this quote (from the Wiki article on "Justice delayed is justice denied" seems pretty appropriate, (regardless of what he might have originally intended.)

quote:
As Chief Justice of the United States Warren E. Burger noted in an address to the American Bar Association in 1970: "A sense of confidence in the courts is essential to maintain the fabric of ordered liberty for a free people and three things could destroy that confidence and do incalculable damage to society: that people come to believe that inefficiency and delay will drain even a just judgment of its value; that people who have long been exploited in the smaller transactions of daily life come to believe that courts cannot vindicate their legal rights from fraud and over-reaching; that people come to believe the law – in the larger sense – cannot fulfill its primary function to protect them and their families in their homes, at their work, and on the public streets."


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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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QLib

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Oh look, the aptly named moron is no longer getting sufficient attention and sympathy on this thread, so is trying to stir things up in the Styx instead. The 'more in sorrow' than in anger pose is starting to wear a bit thin, but there's clearly plenty of mileage left in the 'ever so 'umble' one.

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Doc Tor
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*Ahem*

QLib: moron's Styx thread is exactly and rightly placed in Styx because he's querying Board rules.

You poking him with a stick because he is correctly following procedure is entirely unwelcome and Not On. Knock it off.

Doc Tor
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Forward the New Republic

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moron
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Aey but I kind of enjoy being poked so please sail on.

Have I mentioned the immense satisfaction of being schooled?

(I'm currently working up the most insufferable post ever but my brain is hurting.)

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Doc Tor
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And in case anyone's in any doubt over this, moron (currently 'enjoying' some shore leave for yes, making an arse of himself in Styx) doesn't get to rescind Hostly admonishments (even the mild ones) because he doesn't mind so much.

Doc Tor
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Forward the New Republic

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Barnabas62
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Schooling is for everyone of course, including those present who already know the lesson inside out.

How people change as a result of lessons learned is, shall we say, a demonstrable variable?

(I hope that's general enough, Doc. Definitely not seeking to be uppity).

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Doc Tor
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Pfft.

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Forward the New Republic

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orfeo

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I should probably add that Australians don't always like authority, but often our response is to make fun of it.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mdijon
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Think of violent protest as extended teasing.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Think of violent protest as extended teasing.

Yeah, right. Guns may blow my face off, but mocking derision will never hurt me.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Generalizations are dangerous

What, all of them?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Porridge
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No, only the self-contradicting ones.

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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saysay

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Fuck you, Faux News.

What the fuck gives your lying spoiled brat asses the right to put other people in danger like that?

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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Fuck you, Faux News.

Yeah, a LOT of us can agree on that. My God that's awful.

EDIT: Have you got any kind of media standards body over there that this can be referred to? Because over here I know where I'd be making a complaint, but I don't know if there's any kind of media oversight in the USA, what with the strength of "free speech", which I'm guessing includes the freedom to lie through your teeth while broadcasting to millions of people.

[ 23. December 2014, 04:07: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Palimpsest
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As far as I know and IANAL there are no legal media standards groups. There are a few voluntary associations, but they just admire themselves. And it's always been that way. Revolutionary period newspapers were owned and vicious propaganda so it's not like this was something the founding fathers hadn't though of.

Libel and slander laws would be tricky in this case. About the only thing left is to watch the Jon Steward Show, now that The Stephen Colbert Show is gone. Both would regularly show clips of Fox and other Media misdeeds and comment on them.

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Barnabas62
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Appalling. Send protests to the White House?

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Golden Key
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"Saturday Night Live" and the various late-night talk show hosts will probably skewer them.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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I'm sure the White House has a long list of complaints about Fox news since it's a Republican propaganda machine and they still haven't forgiven Obama for winning re-election. There is not much to be done about partisan lying other than generating counter propaganda showing the lies.
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Golden Key
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Might write to the FOX network brass, and maybe the FCC Federal Communications Commission (FCC).

There are lots of people who make complaints about TV. If you look up something like "how to make complaints about TV", adding "news" or "shows", you'll probably find more options.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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