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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » "It could never happen to me"

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Source: (consider it) Thread: "It could never happen to me"
Potoroo
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# 13466

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Did you used to believe, like I did, that "it could never happen to me; I would never fall away"?

I now believe that it can happen to anyone. I was a very committed Christian. But life circumstances can change things. For me, I had some years of being hungry while I was living on campus at Bible College. I had faith that God would provide, but neither Christians or God fed me. Being very hungry every holiday changed something fundamental in me. I always believed in the omnipotence of God, but here I was, lacking basic necessities because I'd put God first and been obedient to him, and God was choosing to ignore me.

Then I fell into mental illness. That changed me, too. Ultimately, I think we can't know what is ahead for any of us in life, so no-one can really say, "It won't happen to me; my faith is strong enough." I discovered that that verse about God not testing us beyond what we can bear is not true. Maybe it is true for some people, but then maybe God is kinder to them. I now know of plenty of people for whom that verse is not true.

What do you think?

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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.

Posts: 2778 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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One of the real eye-openers for me was "A Churchless Faith", which showed that some people were leaving church from the centre, from being very committed and involved. I had assumed that people only left from the edges, drifting away slowly.

I have also read a number of stories of church leaders who have given up their position and the church as a whole (I am sure there are more who have given up their faith too). It all made me realise that being involved and committed didn't mean you couldn't be disillusioned.

So yes, I though it couldn't ever be me. Until it was.

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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444

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I read part of the Lord's prayer as 'Don't test us beyond our breaking point' on the understanding that it is still possible.

I've seen Paul's idea that this won't happen not to be the case sometimes and I don't doubt that it could happen to me. If it does I just don't think God would put the blame on me. I know God is a loving God, even if life is shit. Perhaps I would go crazy if I didn't.

My understanding of being a Christian is that I have been called to follow, and I will try to keep faith with that. Others have a different faith. Maybe it is just how they describe it, but I think it is probably really different. Theirs sounds better perhaps, but I can't conjure up what I don't have. From about 1980-2010 I felt God had said 'You are on your own now.' Then I gradually found my way back, or was given a way back. It's hard to say which.

I don't know if my story helps. Thanks for giving me the freedom to express it.

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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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TallPoppy
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# 16294

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***I discovered that that verse about God not testing us beyond what we can bear is not true. Maybe it is true for some people, but then maybe God is kinder to them. I now know of plenty of people for whom that verse is not true.***

No, seeing the terrible suffering of my bipolar friends when they are in crisis means I cannot believe that either Potoroo.

I am finding solace in the quite challenging teachings of Buddhism: that suffering and decay are inevitable as part of the human condition, but that through kindness to ourselves and to others, we can find purpose.

TallPoppy

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Papaver exaltatum

"Love comforteth like sunshine after rain"

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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I think churches blame the suffering for their suffering much of the time. It offends that good people can have terrible things happen, so they want you to be quiet, and to join in the happy bits. They don't mean harm, they just don't have the complete world view necessary.

This said, perhaps it is a symptom of the age, the spirit of our times, when everyone is supposed to be a winner. I wonder about older traditions which venerated suffering, to the point of fetish sometimes. Meditations on the wounds of Jesus etc. Did these people do better with the suffering around them and their own?

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Bob Two-Owls
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# 9680

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I do think that one of the good things the Church gave to society was a measure of respectability that could be shared by the poor. Even a pauper without two groats to rub together could be "god-fearing" and have some dignity acknowledged by the better-off. That seems to have gone by the wayside and the poor are just "losers" now, the by-product of others "winning".

As for the OP, I always knew I might fall off the wagon, it was drummed into me so many times that the way was narrow and difficult. My split Catholic/Anglican upbringing led to me falling foul of one side or another pretty much all the time so I was never under any illusions that I was on the right side ever.

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anteater

Ship's pest-controller
# 11435

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Potoroo:
quote:
For me, I had some years of being hungry while I was living on campus at Bible College. I had faith that God would provide, but neither Christians or God fed me. Being very hungry every holiday changed something fundamental in me. I always believed in the omnipotence of God, but here I was, lacking basic necessities because I'd put God first and been obedient to him, and God was choosing to ignore me.
It's always tricky replying to posts where someone has stated experience of mental illness, with no indication of what the diagnosis was, and what the current status is. Are there posting guidelines on this?

Having said that, you portrayal seems much closer to the sort of religious fanaticism, that takes the attitude that if I go to bible college with insufficient resources so I rely on chance or other people to feed me, then God should jolly well pony up. You may have had faith that God will provide, but that does not equate to faith in the christian sense, and one comes across it a lot especially with young men. You don't need me to tell you that the most god-committed person had nowhere to lay his head.

I wonder how much your Bible college checked up that you had sufficient provision? If not, I would be critical of them, as I am of Bible colleges that take students money when they have as much chance of making it in the ministry as I have of having a Number 1 hit.

Anyhow, what I hoped happened was that you learned some lessons that matured you. Sadly, though, you sound a bit pissed off with the whole thing. I think the God you want does not exist.

The question then is whether you can get to like the one who does.

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
It's always tricky replying to posts where someone has stated experience of mental illness, with no indication of what the diagnosis was, and what the current status is. Are there posting guidelines on this?

As everywhere else on the ship, you may only comment on what posters have put on the public boards. Please do not make guesses or diagnoses. If posters wish to post more, they will.

We are discussing whether we need to identify a specific and more detailed guideline. In the meantime, please a) do not reveal anything that you do not want to be publicly commented on and b) do not assume anything that posters have not stated publicly.

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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

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# 10509

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I know someone who is very afraid of being tested so sorely that she would lose her faith.

Me, I never thought to apply that question to myself: "Might it happen that I would lose my faith?" So I never had an opinion on it, whether "yes" as the OP is asking if we had, or "no" as the person I know fears the answer might be.

My faith just was what it was, and when I lost it it left for what seemed entirely good reasons, and then it came back in a different way, and now it seems to be going away again.

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Potoroo
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# 13466

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anteater, a difficult post to answer.

You are right: I was greatly mistaken in my thinking at the time. You are also right in that I learned some hard lessons that matured me.

I came from a fundamentalist church initially, which partly explains my thinking, although I ended up much more liberal. Of course my Bible College didn't check up on finances. They did check up with my vicar and other references though. In all cases, including in my own mind, I was being obedient to God.

My mental illness was severe depression - a nervous breakdown after Bible College. My mental health issues are still ongoing, although the depression is not such a problem now.

And I have no interest in getting to know the God who does exist. I suspect that no-one on earth really knows the God who exists, as we all have out own ideas of what God is, and they are probably all wrong to some degree.

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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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My thought when I was told at a Christian summer camp, "X% of you will fall away in the next 10 years" was not "It could never happen to me" but "I will ensure this does not happen to me." So far I've been lucky. Only time will tell.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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On reflection, I'm not sure but the idea of a 'personal Saviour' is not one of the most pernicious ever. If a God is micro- managing your life, then every natural or practical consideration has to be distrusted in favour of a 'leading', of decoding a keyless enigma which is God's 'plan' for your life.

I can remember, at a particularly stressed and disorientated time of my life, having a dream in which I was raptured from earth - but instead of Heaven, there was only space. And it was empty. It felt devastating at the time, but I should have recognised it as true and saved myself a lot of hassle.

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anteater

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# 11435

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quote:
Did you used to believe, like I did, that "it could never happen to me; I would never fall away"?

I now believe that it can happen to anyone.

Well I "fell away" from the JWs, except that most people not in that movement would not use that term. Maybe I grew up a bit.

Cockiness is a fairly natural feature of the young. Not only are we sure we are right, we're damned sure that we are being holy, and doing God's will, whereas we might just be fleeing responsibility with a Walter Mitty idea of being a Super-Preacher.

Any half-sensible church, if they hear someone self confidently bragging that "I will never fall away" will do their best to being him into contact with reality. Maybe even read all the Bible including the bits like "Let he who thinks he is standing take care lest he fall" and many others.

Someone v close to me went through a similar experience. They remain spiritual although with no desire for the mainstream church. But I'm sure they are better off than in the infantile religion they left.

We shouldn't equate change with fall. I don't.

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Schnuffle schnuffle.

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
On reflection, I'm not sure but the idea of a 'personal Saviour' is not one of the most pernicious ever. If a God is micro- managing your life, then every natural or practical consideration has to be distrusted in favour of a 'leading', of decoding a keyless enigma which is God's 'plan' for your life.

The idea of God having a "plan" is, to my mind, the pernicious part of this - and I don't think it follows from the idea of a personal saviour.

God with a plan is manipulative. "This is the plan, whenever you don't follow it, you have failed" is abusive. That is not my God. As you say, it means that you relinquish responsibility for your life because all you ever do is try to find the "grand plan".

It is damaging, because there is something of an "all or nothing" about it. Whenever I find something that is all or nothing in terms of faith, I am very suspicious. I don't think God works like that.

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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
JoannaP
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# 4493

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo on another thread:
On the other hand, I have long held to the view that 'I know what I believe today but not what I will believe tomorrow' - which seems healthy to me.

This sums up my position nicely; at the moment I still believe a fair bit of what is reported in the gospels but I am aware that my faith is becoming more liberal (for want of a better term) and less literal. I was moved by reading one of Richard Holloway's books, where he wrote about the 30 year journey from sure faith to his current position, but also very challenged by his talk of orthopraxis - I still feel the need to have the 'magic words' of absolution said over me every Sunday - because I feel very far from doing the right thing. As to what I will believe in 30 years, who knows?

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"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think churches blame the suffering for their suffering much of the time. It offends that good people can have terrible things happen, so they want you to be quiet, and to join in the happy bits. They don't mean harm, they just don't have the complete world view necessary.

This said, perhaps it is a symptom of the age, the spirit of our times, when everyone is supposed to be a winner. I wonder about older traditions which venerated suffering, to the point of fetish sometimes. Meditations on the wounds of Jesus etc. Did these people do better with the suffering around them and their own?

Dunno. In terms of older traditions, the philosophy of Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar (Job's friends) is a pretty old one. Churches that blame suffering on the sufferer are just following in their footsteps. I don't think it's a modern phenomenon, just a misplaced unhelpful way that people parse suffering.

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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch

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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673

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quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
.... - I still feel the need to have the 'magic words' of absolution said over me every Sunday - because I feel very far from doing the right thing. As to what I will believe in 30 years, who knows?

Wow!
I wouldn't for one moment want to belittle your journey.
I've never been in any tradition where a priest offers absolution (except Methodism is moving that way [Snigger] ) so that may explain my surprise that someone moving towards a liberal belief system would value this.
Thanks for making me think - and waking me up with a start!

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged


 
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