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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: "I will pray for you"
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It is when someone says "I realised today that I am gay" or "I have left the church", or anything else that is seen as a positive by the poster (or commenter) to then respond with "I will pray for you" is abusive and hurtful.
I agree that it would be perceived as such, and should not be presented that way. If someone said, "I realized today that I am gay," my response would be (and has been), "well, I love you no matter what, and now as always before if there's something i can do to help you, please let me know."
For the latter, "I am an atheist now," the response is similar: "Well, I love you no matter what. If you have examined all the evidence and come to that conclusion, then that's where you are, and I will accept and love you just as I always have. I can't tell anyone to do any differently, because that's how I came to be where I am. That kind of examination may lead people in different directions, and if you're okay with that, then so am I."
Then I try to be the best friend/father/cousin/uncle/whatever to them as I can. And if anything about them needs to change, then it's out of my hands, other than to support them with love. If God exists and wants more than that, She's going to have to do it some other way because that's all I can give.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It is when someone says "I realised today that I am gay" or "I have left the church", or anything else that is seen as a positive by the poster (or commenter) to then respond with "I will pray for you" is abusive and hurtful.
I agree that it would be perceived as such, and should not be presented that way. If someone said, "I realized today that I am gay," my response would be (and has been), "well, I love you no matter what, and now as always before if there's something i can do to help you, please let me know."
For the latter, "I am an atheist now," the response is similar: "Well, I love you no matter what. If you have examined all the evidence and come to that conclusion, then that's where you are, and I will accept and love you just as I always have. I can't tell anyone to do any differently, because that's how I came to be where I am. That kind of examination may lead people in different directions, and if you're okay with that, then so am I."
Then I try to be the best friend/father/cousin/uncle/whatever to them as I can. And if anything about them needs to change, then it's out of my hands, other than to support them with love. If God exists and wants more than that, She's going to have to do it some other way because that's all I can give.
As with all these things context is key. There are people who, when they say they'll pray for you mean what you do. And that seems okay to me. Then there's the other sort. The ones who'll be telling God exactly how your life needs to be reorganised to get it back on track.
How you react depends on the context. Telling the former where to stick it costs you a friend for whatever journey you're now on. Telling the latter where to stick is a public service!
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
I must confess I'm still trying to understand several years later the condolence card for the death of my brother (suicide) saying the sender was paying for a mass. My family is pretty much atheist through and through though we don't exactly shout it from the hilltops and we don't come from a Catholic background. There is a culture gap that I don't comprehend.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
No need to read anything into it--it's just a simple human desire to do something, anything, to help, when you know that's there's really nothing you can do. The same reason people bring over casseroles and such. You can't fix what really matters, and you wish you could. So you do something.
We get these cards too, and we're Lutheran, and known to be such. We take them as expressions of love.
[ 20. December 2014, 03:49: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
No need to read anything into it--it's just a simple human desire to do something, anything, to help, when you know that's there's really nothing you can do. The same reason people bring over casseroles and such. You can't fix what really matters, and you wish you could. So you do something.
We get these cards too, and we're Lutheran, and known to be such. We take them as expressions of love.
I agree with you, Lamb Chopped. And I think assuming good will unless you have strong evidence otherwise is not a bad policy in many similar situations!
Rachel.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
Posts: 912 | From: In the lab. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
(Bump)
I would like to share some experiences about people praying for Mrs W and me with a view to gaining a better understanding of what prayer might be from my point of view and how I might react to people praying for me.
Firstly, some particular examples of prayer that I remember:
1960: grateful for the prayers and financial support of Christians who got us through Bible College.
1967: grateful for the prayers of Christians as we ventured overseas in ministry in an old-style British colonial situation.
Many times: sometimes arrogantly, sometimes patronising, always serious, led worship and prayers seeking God’s presence / giving thanks / offering intercessions for others. At some point, not too far from retirement and having spent years in research into ‘charismatic’ phenomena, gave-up on institutional religion. Stayed in the church with what for me was a more radical worship style / agenda (sermons on controversial subjects, clowning, ‘they never knew what was coming next’, much greater emphasis on 'entertainment').
1994: led a group of teenagers in prayerful thanks to God for a bluebell wood.
2002: grateful for prayers from around the world when family member was very seriously ill.
2004: retired from the church / ministry.
About 2007: could no longer make sense of GOD and gave up on that concept, gradually embracing non-theism which acknowledges the creation of gods from within the creative imaginations of individuals.
As I no longer believe in GOD how can I now deconstruct it all? With difficulty but determination. Prayer now seems to me to be
(i) a useful tool for some people in the maintenance of their ‘community’ and for assuring others, outside of their community, of support. When people say they will pray for me when they are not aware of my new pilgrimage, it probably does that. I am fairly content about that. And I remain grateful for the extensive support shown to Mrs W and me over the years.
(ii) a means for telling GOD what she should do (heal the sick, bring better weather, save those living in darkness etc). When people say that to me after being told that I have rejected the concept of GOD, I get angry.
It is this second meaning that I wished to address in my OP. It feels to me that such prayer is seeking to manipulate me, certainly it does not respect my views or respect me as a person. Why do they tell me that they are praying for something which I reject to something I have decided is, for me, nonsense (I usually say that I ‘can no longer make sense of the idea of GOD’, thus ‘nonsense’)?
This is where I am at the moment, willing to consider alternative constructs for a non-theist point of view on prayer and praying.
Any ideas, please? Is there another way for me to think about prayer? Having re-read the thread I acknowledge and am grateful for contributions which have addressed this issue. Does the subject bother others who have given-up on GOD?
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
So what is making you angry, is your interpretation of the specific behaviour of "telling me they are praying for me when they already know I don't believe in God" as disrespect. It is not really about the nature of prayer.
So you have three main options: less hinting - ie saying, at the point of telling a given person you are now an athiest, "please don't pray for me" OR consider other interpretations of that behaviour OR decide you don't care what folk say to their imaginary friend.
You might need to consider if it is possible you have in fact lost their respect, if they were former congregants for example - if so - would you want, and is it possible, to earn their respect again. (Just to be clear, not by reconversion, but by establishing a new relationship with the person question - upon new ground rules and perspectives.)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I often pray for people as part of my work as a chaplain. I go into the chapel and sit quietly and remember them, the conversations I've had with them, and wonder about them. I may tell them I am going to do this. Sometimes people ask me to pray for them.
It's like writing a letter to someone, a thank you note or a letter or condolence, or perhaps writing a poem about them.
It's a small gift of time and retrospective attention. It's quite often illuminating as I remember things that didn't seem important at the time but now shed light on the conversation.
This is an entirely non supernatural understanding of prayer, but it makes sense to me, and prayer still seems worthwhile and something I can talk about naturally.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Hatless: your post is very helpful and provides me with something to think about as I try to comes to terms with prayer in my past and other people’s prayers today. I like your style. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Doublethink: quote:
So what is making you angry, is your interpretation of the specific behaviour of "telling me they are praying for me when they already know I don't believe in God" as disrespect.
Yes, I think so. If it is not that they are demonstrating a lack of respect and / or an inability or unwillingness to listen / hear what I say, what is it? A very different attitude would be something like ‘Can we talk about it?’ – they might want to add ‘I’m flabbergasted’ or anything else, but a desire to chat through the issues is exactly what I would welcome (with my friends!). If you think this sounds arrogant (perhaps it does), then I would add that such disrespect or unwillingness to listen is not a Christian virtue and that makes me angry, or at least unhappy.
quote:
It is not really about the nature of prayer.
I’m not sure that I am able to respond to that. I have said elsewhere that if people want to pray, that’s ok, just don’t tell me. I’ve stated what I believe to be the nature of prayer: this will offend some Christians; but I wouldn't offer my views unless in a serious discussion about the subject. To take it a stage further (could we ever get there?): if my friend/s and I had a chat about my pilgrimage (inevitably, also theirs) and they then said they would pray for me, I probably would feel able to say something like 'OK, if you wish. I appreciate your concern but you realise that I don't think it will change anything, don't you?'
quote:
So you have three main options: less hinting - ie saying, at the point of telling a given person you are now an athiest, "please don't pray for me" OR consider other interpretations of that behaviour OR decide you don't care what folk say to their imaginary friend.
To be accurate, I’ve never said I am an atheist: there is an important distinction which I have outlined, between atheist and non-theist (as I understand it). Perhaps you missed that.
Perhaps one of my ‘weaknesses’ is to say ‘I don’t care’.
quote:
You might need to consider if it is possible you have in fact lost their respect, if they were former congregants for example - if so - would you want, and is it possible, to earn their respect again.
I don’t think I’ve lost their respect because they still want to be in touch. To be honest, if my present pilgrimage offends them to the point where they wish to cut-off the friendship, would I be bothered? I doubt it. (Of course there are other considerations and things are never quite so clear cut). There also is the point that if I have lost their respect, what does that say about them, as Christians?
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
OK, so if you don't think you have lost their respect, then it is unlikely the identified behaviour is a marker of disrespect. It may be a marker of an empathy deficit, or poor memory, or failure to work through the implications of a course of action etc.
You may need to talk through it with them directly to work that out, but you may find yourself feeling less angry if you reach for a different interpretation of their behaviour.
(I don't understand the distinction you are making between non-theist and atheist, it is possible that if you tell people about your change of heart - then assure them you are *not* an atheist - they interpret this in such away that it might seem prayer would still be a relevant thing for you.)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
OK, so if you don't think you have lost their respect, then it is unlikely the identified behaviour is a marker of disrespect.
I do not see a distinction.
quote:
You may need to talk through it with them directly to work that out, but you may find yourself feeling less angry if you reach for a different interpretation of their behaviour.
I would take that as a given purpose of a discussion - if only they would have it instead of going into their chamber to pray.
quote:
(I don't understand the distinction you are making between non-theist and atheist, it is possible that if you tell people about your change of heart - then assure them you are *not* an atheist - they interpret this in such away that it might seem prayer would still be a relevant thing for you.)
Not for a moment would I simply tell them that I am a non-theist - few people would know what that means - and I have (on the few occasions when I have had the opportunity to explain my pilgrimage) explained it fully.
Did you miss the explanation of my understanding of non-theism?
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Yes, could you give me a link ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
quote:
OK, so if you don't think you have lost their respect, then it is unlikely the identified behaviour is a marker of disrespect.
I do not see a distinction.
You have said that they respect you, but you are angry because their behaviour disrepects you. So either, they don't actually respect you or their behaviour is not intentional disrespect - or you are using respect to mean two different things. I think if you can identify what is getting to you, you might have a chance at getting to a solution you feel comfortable with.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Yes, could you give me a link ?
It is my OP on the Non-theism thread.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
quote:
OK, so if you don't think you have lost their respect, then it is unlikely the identified behaviour is a marker of disrespect.
I do not see a distinction.
You have said that they respect you, but you are angry because their behaviour disrepects you. So either, they don't actually respect you or their behaviour is not intentional disrespect - or you are using respect to mean two different things. I think if you can identify what is getting to you, you might have a chance at getting to a solution you feel comfortable with.
I think they still respect me, but they show disrespect by their behaviour. Seems simple to me.
And this is feeling like an argument bordering on attack. Possibly you don't mean it to be so.
Perhaps you missed the post where I said I felt delicate?
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
That seems like a social constructionist theory of religious belief. Which I would by and large agree with personally, but I struggle to understand what you would characterise as atheism.
(Crosspost)
[ 27. December 2014, 15:47: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
quote:
OK, so if you don't think you have lost their respect, then it is unlikely the identified behaviour is a marker of disrespect.
I do not see a distinction.
You have said that they respect you, but you are angry because their behaviour disrepects you. So either, they don't actually respect you or their behaviour is not intentional disrespect - or you are using respect to mean two different things. I think if you can identify what is getting to you, you might have a chance at getting to a solution you feel comfortable with.
I think they still respect me, but they show disrespect by their behaviour. Seems simple to me.
And this is feeling like an argument bordering on attack. Possibly you don't mean it to be so.
Perhaps you missed the post where I said I felt delicate?
I am not criticising your choice, your beliefs or even that you feel angry when people say they will pray for you - just querying your interpretation of why they do that.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Faithsplaining.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I have literally no idea what that means.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Condescending explanations from persons of faith to persons of not faith concerning what the persons of not faith believe or don't believe or should believe.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Is that about theological belief ? Cos otherwise faithsplain makes no sense.
[ 27. December 2014, 16:33: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Yeah, I don't get it either. Telling someone who has left Christianity that you're going to pray for them sounds more like a breach of etiquette than anything else to me. If you've asked people not to say "I'll pray for you," but they keep saying it anyway, it's just rude. It's not "faithsplaining," because it's not telling the non-Christian what the non-Christian believes.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Another thought ...
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
As I no longer believe in GOD how can I now deconstruct it all? With difficulty but determination. Prayer now seems to me to be ...
As you no longer believe in God, why do you need to even think about prayer at all? Why do you need to re-define it?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Yeah, I don't get it either. Telling someone who has left Christianity that you're going to pray for them sounds more like a breach of etiquette than anything else to me. If you've asked people not to say "I'll pray for you," but they keep saying it anyway, it's just rude. It's not "faithsplaining," because it's not telling the non-Christian what the non-Christian believes.
I wasn't referring to "telling atheists you're praying for them." That was not the immediate context of my invocation of the term; rather, Doublethink's obnoxious faithsplaining to Mark of the reasons for his doubt.
Really it's just a form of privilege. Christians feel they have the right to explain to atheists what they believe, but shit a brick when atheists do the same thing back at them.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Huh? Doubt isn't even what's being discussed.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Yeah, I don't get it either. Telling someone who has left Christianity that you're going to pray for them sounds more like a breach of etiquette than anything else to me. If you've asked people not to say "I'll pray for you," but they keep saying it anyway, it's just rude. It's not "faithsplaining," because it's not telling the non-Christian what the non-Christian believes.
Ok, i agree. Telling someone something they have already said is offensive is rude, and annoyance is a pretty predictable response to rudeness."Faithsplaining" is a catchy term, and we need to keep it handy, but the above situation, as Ruth says, is about courtesy, not faith.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Another thought ...
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
As I no longer believe in GOD how can I now deconstruct it all? With difficulty but determination. Prayer now seems to me to be ...
As you no longer believe in God, why do you need to even think about prayer at all? Why do you need to re-define it?
I thought I had explained it ... quote:
with a view to gaining a better understanding of what prayer might be from my point of view and how I might react to people praying for me.
And, it isn't about people telling me that they will pray for me after I have asked them not to - we haven't got to that point. And if we did (when we do) I may decide that I don't mind them praying for me provided they know what I think about it. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Actually, it isn't too much of a re-definition, either, but I won't go there now.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Yes, I read that. What I don't get is why you feel a need to have an understanding of prayer at all. When I left Christianity for the better part of a decade, I didn't spend time pondering its practices. But you are doing so, and I'm trying to see why.
On a related note: Doublethink can clarify her intent, but to my eyes she is asking questions in an effort to understand what you're saying, not to tell you what you think or believe.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Potoroo
Shipmate
# 13466
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
What I don't get is why you feel a need to have an understanding of prayer at all. When I left Christianity for the better part of a decade, I didn't spend time pondering its practices. But you are doing so, and I'm trying to see why.
I understand it, Mark Wuntoo. As I see it, it is rather crucial to sort through everything we went through, as we spent a large part of our lives on this stuff, and did it even work? Was it even worth it? Prayer is a central part of all that, and so trying to understand it (from our viewpoint now) is very important.
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
Posts: 2778 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2008
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Yes, Potoroo, you've understood.
This is what I said in my last 'introductory' post
quote:
It feels to me that such prayer is seeking to manipulate me, certainly it does not respect my views or respect me as a person. Why do they tell me that they are praying for something which I reject to something I have decided is, for me, nonsense (I usually say that I ‘can no longer make sense of the idea of GOD’, thus ‘nonsense’)?
This is where I am at the moment, willing to consider alternative constructs for a non-theist point of view on prayer and praying.
Any ideas, please? Is there another way for me to think about prayer? Having re-read the thread I acknowledge and am grateful for contributions which have addressed this issue. Does the subject bother others who have given-up on GOD?
But I haven't been hearing that it bothers people who have stopped believing in GOD. I've been hearing something else.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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