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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The view from down the road
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Sometime in the next few months, providing my plans aren't somehow scuppered, I'll be retiring early from my job as an NHS chaplain.
("Surely not, Adeodatus!"
"You can't possibly be old enough!"
"I can scarce believe it!")
Obviously it's caused me a lot of thought, and among the several themes that are becoming clear, there's one I'd like to share on this Board. As I look beyond the retirement horizon, I try to see signs of how I would like to continue my relationship with the Church - and I see none. From the perspective of where I am now, I simply have no interest or desire in continuing any sort of ministry or indeed membership.
All I can think is that 20 years of working in healthcare, on the margins of the institutional Church, have worn me out. I've never really had a good experience of the Church and its hierarchy. When I've needed bishops to be pastors, I've found them backing off and disappearing into the woodwork. When I've needed the help of area deans and archdeacons to help preserve my health, wellbeing and sanity, they've almost universally failed. My experience has been that the secular NHS has been a far, far more caring and responsible employer than the CofE ever was.
And now that I'll be leaving the NHS, I find no attraction in the Church at all. I realise that things may change as my perspective changes, but I'd just like to ask, does this kind of thing ring any bells with people here? Has anyone been in a similar position? And what was your journey like from this point on?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
My situation was different in the detail, but pretty much the same process. I left the Church about five or six years ago. My employment wasn't with the church and I retired about a year later, maybe a bit sooner.
I think the important thing is to resist all well-meaning attempts to get you involved in things and keep you busy, unless something you feel really enthused over crops up. This will be hard being clergy as the church depends on retired clergy to keep the show on the road. No doubt your bishop/archdeacon/area dean will suddenly start taking in interest and appealing to your better nature (applying emotional blackmail).
Also, dump the whole thing in God's lap (assuming you still have a belief in God). 'Over to you chum' and wait to see what happens.
Again, a lifetime of doing one's duty can mean that we have lost any knowledge of who we really are, what we really enjoy doing.
Take time to notice what you enjoy doing and what you don't. Ignatian tools of discernment are very helpful here. Aim to spend as much time as you can doing things you enjoy.
Another hangover of a lifetime of duty is that it is difficult to believe that God is happy for us just to enjoy ourselves.
Do not feel the need to justify anything you do or don't do to others. It is easy to come up with some vaguely spiritual formula about 'taking time out for discernment' or some-such to deflect enquiries.
This is what I did/am doing. It is a good life. I wake every morning full of gratitude and looking forward to the day ahead. I am looking forward to next year.
For reading I find Maurice Fullard-Smith ‘This Is It – The Art of Happily Going Nowhere’, available on Amazon, very useful. His situation seems much like yours, although he does not give a lot of personal detail, and the book is his experience and view from 'down the road' as you put it. It is a little booklet, but hugely useful.
Be gentle with yourself and it will all work out, with or without the Church. You don't need to make final decisions right now. Keep it loose and vague as far as the Church institution is concerned.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
I worked for a time in a city cathedral. The place was full of retired clergy of many denominations. My theory was they went there precisely because they would not be strong-armed into joining the flower rota, or whatever. They could slip in, experience some quality liturgy, music, and preaching, and then slip out again. I don't know if that would work for you, but it might be a way of relaxing and re-centring.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I worked an intense career. For a number of years I was glad to be doing it. But later it became just a chore, exhausting, a way to earn a paycheck. I left it, I would like (need) an income, but I'll live on less rather than do that kind of work again.
I think many of us are in a job/career that is right for us for a while, and then becomes wrong for us. We've grown, changed, or the work environment has.
Move on to whatever new adventure God has for you. The adjustment of leaving the old career can take a while if you don't yet have a strong desire to do something specific, no need to rush. But change of direction can be really healthy for you as well as for others you'll help or influence in new ways.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Thanks, all, for your very helpful comments. I've been reading a lot of people's stories on this Board the last couple of weeks, and I think I'm beginning to find that I may actually be looking forward to some time spent, if not Faith-free, then at least Church-free.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm beginning to find that I may actually be looking forward to some time spent, if not Faith-free, then at least Church-free.
Good Luck Adeodatus. Throughout my working life a particular dream has recurred. I would find I owned a second house which would be falling into ruins. I would desperately - and unsuccessfully - try to stem the decay. About a week after retiring I had the dream again but this time a character (an ex-collegue) was there. "Don't worry about it. Live in the house you've got." she said. And since then I have. It was a lot easier and more rewarding than I expected.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Thanks, all, for your very helpful comments. I've been reading a lot of people's stories on this Board the last couple of weeks, and I think I'm beginning to find that I may actually be looking forward to some time spent, if not Faith-free, then at least Church-free.
I think if you can separate your faith from you church, that is a positive thing in life. I think it will improve your spiritual life, because it gives you some personal responsibility.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
... personal responsibility.
Now you're just trying to scare me! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I find myself reacting negatively to these stories of 'lost faith, but continued to get paid'. Did you pretend? Do you think anyone you ministered to detected you? Are there ethical issues in going through the motions and not believing in what you're doing? Wasn't there a cost to your person?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I find myself reacting negatively to these stories of 'lost faith, but continued to get paid'. Did you pretend? Do you think anyone you ministered to detected you? Are there ethical issues in going through the motions and not believing in what you're doing? Wasn't there a cost to your person?
I suspect it is not just continuing to get paid but fear of losing a spouse or children or losing aspects of the job that they truly value (e.g., a chaplain giving comfort to people of any faith or none who are ill or dying [does the NHS hire humanist chaplains?]).
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Yes the NHS does, though it may depend on the particular trust.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Chocoholic
Shipmate
# 4655
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Posted
I don't think Adeodatus was saying he had lost his faith in God but is struggling with his faith in the Church.
I was going to post here a couple of days ago as I have similar feelings, but I wasn't sure if posting them would end up being helpful to him, or add fuel to the fire (which I find happens to me whenever I hear anything negative about the church). It's also not something I feel I've come through and can share any resolution really.
Anyhow, I find my faith in the Church is rather shaky now, for a number of reasons but some resonate strongly with Adeodatus'. I also find myself most at home with MOTR Anglican worship. So, I attend a CofE church but very much take a back seat. It might sound like I'm not contributing or committing to the community, and yes, that is true, but it's not for reasons of laziness (although it can also have that advantage ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) ). So I'm not on the electoral role etc. but I know I may be missing out from not taking part further. Also churches can be dreadful places to be sometimes, and I just don't have the resilience for that now. This has been the case for a number of years, I had hoped it would improve but seems to have got worse so this is what sort of works for me right now.
Posts: 773 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I find myself reacting negatively to these stories of 'lost faith, but continued to get paid'. Did you pretend? Do you think anyone you ministered to detected you? Are there ethical issues in going through the motions and not believing in what you're doing? Wasn't there a cost to your person?
I'm inclined to agree with you about all this, no prophet, but Chocoholic is nearer the mark: it's the Church I've fallen out of love with, not God. Or rather, to be very precise about it, I think I might not know what I think about God until I've separated myself from the Church, which over the years has done me a lot of harm and (as far as I can see from my present perspective) very little good.
It's a funny old business, chaplaincy. One of my rules of thumb has always been that in a time of crisis, nobody really loses their faith: they just discover what they really believe. And if what they really believe turns out not to be what they thought they believed, it feels like a loss of faith. I don't think I've ever worked with someone for whom that wasn't ultimately true.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
... personal responsibility.
Now you're just trying to scare me!
I mean it in a good way!
Losing faith but still getting paid is an interesting one, so I will start a new thread on this - I think there is more to explore in this.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm inclined to agree with you about all this, no prophet, but Chocoholic is nearer the mark: it's the Church I've fallen out of love with, not God. Or rather, to be very precise about it, I think I might not know what I think about God until I've separated myself from the Church, which over the years has done me a lot of harm and (as far as I can see from my present perspective) very little good.
It's a funny old business, chaplaincy. One of my rules of thumb has always been that in a time of crisis, nobody really loses their faith: they just discover what they really believe. And if what they really believe turns out not to be what they thought they believed, it feels like a loss of faith. I don't think I've ever worked with someone for whom that wasn't ultimately true. [/QB]
Thanks for the additional information. quote:
nobody really loses their faith: they just discover what they really believe.
This is completely understandable. Faith and religion is not a test, but tested it can be. Been there myself as a heavily involved lay person.
It's interesting to me that we often do it as a binary, yes/no, believe or not, when it's more like a shift and change.
--On a personal note, I hope I was unduly harsh with my comment, I was doing the binary thing I'm now understanding more properly.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I have a friend who is a chaplain who says it's really about listening, and helping people explore their own faith. So from that perspective I'm not sure what difference the faith, or lack of it, of the chaplain makes. Adeodatus of course with firsthand experience may wish to correct this impression of mine.
[Edited to fix hash that auto-correct made of Adeodatus' name]
[ 03. January 2015, 20:48: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
CORRECTION!!
--On a personal note, I hope I was NOT unduly harsh with my comment, I was doing the binary thing I'm now understanding more properly.
Double apologies.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
I have a friend who is a chaplain who says it's really about listening, and helping people explore their own faith. So from that perspective I'm not sure what difference the faith, or lack of it, of the chaplain makes. A dedicates of course with firsthand experience may wish to correct this impression of mine.
Yes! I think your friend is correct. Who, in any case, has all the answers? I suppose you could say knowing all (well, some) of the questions is far more important than having the answers. Listening is so much more important than giving answers. Suggesting possible avenues for exploration is far more healthy than saying 'This is the way'.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
... personal responsibility.
Now you're just trying to scare me!
That made me smile!
More significantly, that sense of aversion does need to be taken seriously. I sometimes think that folks who carry out any full time ministry within or under the auspices of the church should be issued with a Health Warning similar to one of the earlier ones found on cigarette packets.
"Warning: doing this job can seriously damage your health".
The Lindisfarne model of involvement is a good one. Sometimes it is busily connected to the mainland, sometimes the tide comes in and it becomes a more isolated and peaceful place. Of course that happens every day on Lindisfarne, but I often think that for folks who have been in full time ministry there may not have been a time when "the tide was really in" for years. And it doesn't help if one's experiences when "the tide is out" have been that support has been "not much help; bugger all use". That's very discouraging.
I reckon it's a good idea to just let the tide roll in and enjoy it being in. Enjoy the present. Some good advice from a friend comes to mind at this stage.
"Don't go back until you can look a tiger in the eye and spit in his face".
I found that did stand me in good stead when I eventually decided to test the waters and go back.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I like the Lindisfarne image. I have stayed there a few times, and the place is completely different in the daytime to the evening (the daytime being when it is accessible, the evening being after the causeway has closed at the end of the day).
I know that I like the contrast. I love the bustle in the day, but and it makes the evening calmness even more intense and calming. Staying on the island gives a sense of calm out of which the business of the day is empowering.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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