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Source: (consider it) Thread: How do you know whether or not you have faith?
stonespring
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I'm not sure if I've ever had any faith (Christian faith, in my case Roman Catholic or at least small-c catholic). I'm not sure how one really know if one does have faith or not.

Is it because:

a. Someone acts like they have faith (ie, has "good fruits" form their faith).

b. Someone says that they have faith (and in spite of doubt manages to keep their words in line with their faith, even if they are respectful to the beliefs of others).

c. Someone thinks they have faith (this is the one I find the most difficult to understand because I really have no clue what I believe about things as abstract as religion, let alone whether or not I will believe that the next day, hour, or minute).

d. Someone "feels" that they have faith, regardless of their rational thoughts about it. (This also confuses me, because I do not know the difference between feeling like I am bathed in the love of my Redeemer and just feeling happy about the world I live in and the people around me...It's really easy through breath control and looking at something beautiful for me to have an experience that feels like some kind of epiphany, just like I can have such an experience in a particularly quiet or rousing church service - how do I know if those feelings come from faith or not?)

e. Something else?

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SvitlanaV2
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Like you, I've often wondered what faith 'means'. When I recite the creed, as I did on Sunday evening, in what sense was I aligning myself with those words? Intellectually? Emotionally? Psychologically? Aesthetically?

I once heard a monk say on TV that in the face of various objections to faith proposed by some commentators, all he could say was that the biblical text fed him. I think I can relate to that. The Jesus-story feeds me. Something inside of me responds to it. I think the same applies to specific Christian doctrines, to a greater or lesser extent; they simply feel 'complete', natural in their supernaturalness, as it were. Or else they feel like secondary matters about which we can disagree, or which we can be unsure or uneducated about without ceasing to be Christians as a result.

A religion has to be codified if it is to be coherent and durable (I think...), even if it's taken as read that each believer will have a different way of understanding faith, be at a different point of spiritual maturity, and have a different calling in the sense of putting the complicated words and ideas into practice.

This is how ISTM, anyway.

[ 02. March 2015, 20:38: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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quetzalcoatl
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Svitlana, a very nice post. I find faith a strange idea. But the idea of being fed is excellent; also, being nourished. I find different religions nourishing, so I am a kind of nomad.

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Belle Ringer
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For several decades I "had faith" for the same reason that I voted a specific political party - it's what I was told. God was assumed the way the "world is round" and "water is blue" were assumed - intellectually assented to because taught that, but no effect on daily life, which of course means I lost interest. Why spend time, money, attention on something that has no effect? I certainly wouldn't have died to defend any of these taught/inherited impersonal beliefs.

Today I have my own experiential reasons for thinking the world round and water colorless (not blue!) regardless of what anyone tries to teach me. I also have my own experiential reasons to believe God exists and interacts with us (on God's terms); no one trying to convince me otherwise will succeed because the belief is based on personal dynamic experience not just on academic lessons. By contrast, the church's focus on "inherited teachings" is, to me, a fragile if not imitation faith. YMMV

If (generic) you believe only because you were taught, you can easily be persuaded otherwise by a different teacher. If your belief is based on your own personal experience, you won't easily turn your back on that experience-based learning.

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Chorister

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Sometimes it is down to dogged determination, rather than thinking or feeling.

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Luigi
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I have no (zilch / nada / zero) experiences that in any way indicate God exists, Belle Ringer. Maybe God just likes you more than me!

[ 02. March 2015, 22:14: Message edited by: Luigi ]

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LeRoc

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quote:
Belle Ringer: water colorless (not blue!)
?

Water is blue.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Belle Ringer: water colorless (not blue!)
?

Water is blue.

In Minnesota! Not in Texas

Water reflects the sky. yellow & pink etc, or green and white

quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
I have no (zilch / nada / zero) experiences that in any way indicate God exists, Belle Ringer. Maybe God just likes you more than me!

More likely thinks I'm needier than you.

But also, I was challenged at some point to keep a prayer list. Specifically ask God, if there is a God, for specific things I want that I can believe a God would like to make available and small enough that I can genuinely believe the prayer likely to be answered. Not "world peace" (it's too big, what does it mean - a world dictator? And it would seem to require major personality changes and values changes by many thousands of politicians and rebels) but "help me find some way to enjoy the family gathering a bit instead of getting upset as usual" might be a good one.

Any time I make a list adding daily whatever small desires arise, small enough for me to fully believe it can happen without requiring any major changes in anyone's life or the ways of the world (i.e. asking for help not for defying nature miracles), praying about the requests daily, checking off the ones that happen or that I decide I really don't care about, do it for a month - for me it's amazing what a high proportion gets checked off, and an even higher proportion if I keep the list for 3 months (lots of things don't happen right away).

I realize a determined skeptic will say "most of them would have happened anyway" which if the list is things like "the sun will come up tomorrow" is true, but why would one feel a need to actively request something that was obviously going to happen anyway?

[ 03. March 2015, 00:19: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]

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LeRoc

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quote:
Belle Ringer: Water reflects the sky.
No that's wrong. The sea is blue because that is the colour of water. It is very light blue; so light that if you have a small quantity, it looks colourless. But in large amounts (like a sea or a lake), it is blue. Seas or lakes can look yellow, pink, green or white because lighting or stuff that's in the water. But the water is blue.

I think Wikipedia has a page about the colour of water (I can't access Wikipedia right now).

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
In Minnesota! Not in Texas

Water reflects the sky.

As LeRoc says, water is mostly transparent, but very slightly blue. This is different from what you might see reflected from the surface of bodies of water.

Water is blue because there's a high-order vibrational mode of the O-H bond in water in the red part of the visible spectrum, so water absorbs a little more red light than blue. Ice is blue for the same reason.

The sky is blue because of Rayleigh scattering, which isn't the same reason.

ETA: Deep lakes and seas are also blue because there's scattering of light from particles suspended in the water. Deep sees and lakes are sufficiently deep that no light can reflect from the sea bed - it's all absorbed first.

[ 03. March 2015, 01:22: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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M.
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This is a very interesting question. The best I can say is that through and despite all the various vicissitudes of life, there is at the very core of me something that believes.


M.

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Nicodemia
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Can you "decide to have faith"?

I was told to "decide not to doubt". Replied that was impossible. Doubt was already there, you can't just decide to get rid of it. But can you decide to have faith, even if it is not really there?

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Baptist Trainfan
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I don't know. But what I do know is that you cannot have without having at least some doubt at the same time, as faith implies belief rather than proven certainty.
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quetzalcoatl
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I've been through this argument many times with naive Christians, (well, they seemed naive to me), who insisted that I could decide to believe stuff. After going through the usual points (can you believe that Paris is the capital of Germany), I would usually give up. I just don't see how I control my own thoughts and beliefs. Well, maybe I can shut some out.

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Huia
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quote:
Originally posted by M.:
This is a very interesting question. The best I can say is that through and despite all the various vicissitudes of life, there is at the very core of me something that believes.


M.

This is true for me too, though with varying degrees of intensity.

I don't think I can really articulate why, but I think that at least some of my response is because at the most difficult times in my life those who have been most steadfast in their lovingkindness have been people of faith, Christian or Buddhist (though not sure 'faith' is technically the right word for the latter).

I realise many people posting on this board have not been so fortunate, and I've often reacted in sorrow or outright anger in reading how people who claim to be Christian have treated others who are vulnerable.

I hope that makes some kind of sense.

Huia

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I've been through this argument many times with naive Christians, (well, they seemed naive to me), who insisted that I could decide to believe stuff. After going through the usual points (can you believe that Paris is the capital of Germany), I would usually give up. I just don't see how I control my own thoughts and beliefs. Well, maybe I can shut some out.

I've wondered about this too, though I get it from the opposite side, so to speak. People insisting that I have decided to believe something (i.e. Christianity, or a particular teaching thereof) and therefore I can decide to stop believing it, and why don't I, for goodness' sake? Usually with some sort of emotional inducement offered, such as "If you'd only stop believing X, you'd be more fashionable and up-to-date... be able to make more money (doing something I find morally dubious)... not have to do such-and-such an unpleasant duty" (e.g. forgiving an enemy).

Leaving all the ethical issues aside, I usually ask them exactly how they decide to believe or stop believing something. At which point they look at me like I've grown two heads and say, "You just DO it."

I tend to give up on the conversation at that point.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I've been through this argument many times with naive Christians, (well, they seemed naive to me), who insisted that I could decide to believe stuff. After going through the usual points (can you believe that Paris is the capital of Germany), I would usually give up. I just don't see how I control my own thoughts and beliefs. Well, maybe I can shut some out.

"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things."

"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

(Lewis Carroll - for light relief).

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SvitlanaV2
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I once remembering hearing in a Baptist sermon that faith is an act of will. Romantic love has been described in similar terms.

To my mind, this is a potentially useful way of understanding both faith and love, because it gives us some control over our lives, rather than leaving us helplessly at the whim of our emotions, which are always changing. We're agents who can live and act in such as way as to enhance our bonds with our spouse or our Redeemer, rather than having to terminate the connection simply because 'the spark has gone', as it were.

One of the downsides of Pentecostal/charismatic-type religion, ISTM, is that feelings are expected to carry all before them, whereas we know from experience that this isn't necessarily how things go. John Wesley in his spiritual anxiety was told to live faith until he had it, and he did so to great effect. I'm also reminded of Mark 9 ('I believe; help my unbelief'), which indicates how complicated faith can be.

Of course, faith can't be an act of will if the will itself is crumbling. If you've really lost interest then you might as well move on and stop talking to 'naïve Christians' about these things. There are plenty of Christians around who would prefer to talk about foodbanks or Fairtrade biscuits, or whatever!

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quetzalcoatl
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I don't really understand faith as an act of will. For example, I'm not particularly interested in Islam - well, could I become interested in it as an act of will? Possibly. But could I start to believe in it? I find that hard to believe.

One of the old debating points was, could an atheist become a theist tomorrow, and vice versa. You could certainly go through the motions.

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LeRoc

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I'm going to channel Gamaliel here and say that it's not an either/or but a both/and [Smile]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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stonespring
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Faith as an act of will reminds me of the 12-step adage to "fake it until you make it" - which is often told to those members of AA, NA, etc., who do not believe in God and don't even like the idea of any higher power whatsoever. They are advised to go through the 12 steps and the other parts of the recovery program with the same personal investment that someone who believed in them would make. Granted, 12-step programs only have like a 2-3% success rate because most people do not make this personal investment (for any number of reasons), but for those who do, whether they believe in the program or in a Higher Power or not, acting like they do often results in success in their recovery.

I hate the 12 steps and all the ideology surrounding them with a passion (long story, too long for this thread). But that is beside the point. I agree that acting as if one is in a relationship with an awesome, loving God and Redeemer that intervenes in our lives will strengthen one's tendency to identify with a belief in that relationship and will also give one a tendency to see God's hand in little things that happen or do not happen each day (I am also speaking from experience). But is that faith or just cognitive-behavioral conditioning?

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quetzalcoatl
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But first, I have to get the will to act as if I am in a relationship with an awesome God. Where do I get that from, and why would I?

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't really understand faith as an act of will. For example, I'm not particularly interested in Islam - well, could I become interested in it as an act of will? Possibly. But could I start to believe in it? I find that hard to believe.

One of the old debating points was, could an atheist become a theist tomorrow, and vice versa. You could certainly go through the motions.

Well, I've certainly heard atheists argue that Christians only have a small step to make towards atheism since they believe in just one god rather than a whole pantheon of them!

As for Islam, I live in a very Muslim area, and as I look around me I often wonder if I could become a Muslim. Other people from a similar background as mine have done so. It would require taking on a new culture and social network, not simply a change of world view. But many people do come to a religion as a result of an appealing social and psychological context ('believing before belonging'), not simply or primarily as a set of attractive theological ideas. Conversely, I imagine that loss of faith is probably related to a declining sense of belonging forn many people.

So faith can come and go, which is why it's unwise for Christians to take their faith for granted. In that sense I agree with you. Claims about the firmness of one's faith should be tempered with humility, as we don't know what tomorrow will bring. Even wise Solomon turned to other gods. But OTOH it should be said that in the Christian religion all faith is an act of will, in the sense that faith must be grounded in works or else it's dead (James 2). IOW, it's not simply about how we feel, or about the intellectual assent we give to particular doctrines.

[ 03. March 2015, 16:26: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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stonespring
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Looking back I'm pretty sure the only reason I've become involved with Catholicism and Christianity (considering I was not raised to be religious) was:

1. I wanted to see if being part of a community with rules and morals (and a desire to do good in the world) would make me a better person and make me feel better about myself.

2. I wanted to get in touch with my family's historical religious roots (although other parts of my ancestral family tree (the minority) were Lutheran and Anglican). I felt awful that I couldn't be a godparent to one of my Catholic siblings or other relatives' children, although even now I still have never been asked to be.

3. I loved the Christian music we sang in choir in school, and wanted to understand it better. I also wanted to understand all the references to Christianity and Catholicism in particular that were in literature, history, art, etc., and that I only seemed to get a superficial knowledge of in school while looking at them "from the outside."

4. Transubstantiation, baby. Sacred mysteries that for all intents and purposes sound like cannibalism and that (at least in conservative denominations) should only be received by the people who were doctrinally or morally in the right "state" (ooh, exclusivity) all sounded very sexy.

5. Catholicism in particular, especially if you play with its theology like a stereotypical Jesuit, can appear to say just about anything and its opposite at the same time through an unnecessarily complex jargon of Godspeak. I certainly was not going to associate myself with any religion promising a clear answer to things - how boring.

None of these things sound remotely like faith. In my life, I've also had some exposure through my mom to New Age-y movements and the Hindu and Buddhist traditions they rob from, plus (starting in high school and especially in college onward) I've been surrounded by many very happy atheists and agnostics. I don't really see anything "drawing" me to the church or to Jesus that is any different from what draws the people in those other faith/non-faith traditions to their worldview, aside from the very shallow things listed above.

So other than doing church-y things, practicing Christian-y morality, and parroting Christian talk (other than on this thread, natch) - do I have any reason to think that I have even an iota of Christian faith?

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ChastMastr
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What if we substitute the word "trust" for "faith"? Might that help clear this up?

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
What if we substitute the word "trust" for "faith"? Might that help clear this up?

Not for me. If I am urged to trust in Jesus, or for that matter, in my local shaman, I still have to locate in myself the will to do that. But why would I do that? Maybe I need the will to locate my will!

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Lamb Chopped
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The "faith=will" position makes a lot more sense when we're talking about maintaining faith once it's already in existence. In that case, we're talking about faith in the sense of faithfulness--fidelity--keeping one's commitments in the face of passing moods.

We're not talking about stubborn holding-on-to-faith in the face of real counter evidence; any such evidence needs evaluating, of course, and that's fine.

What we are talking about is not just allowing yourself (once you are a Christian already) to drift aimlessly away from the faith through mere carelessness, or because you don't "feel it" today, or any of a myriad illogical excuses.

To change the analogy, once you marry the guy (girl), you keep working on the marriage.

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SvitlanaV2
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quetzalcoatl

You implied above that the idea of being nourished by a religious story/tradition/idea appealed to you. But you're resistant to the notion of faith. What is the difference between the two things, in your mind?

[ 03. March 2015, 18:50: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quetzalcoatl

You implied above that the idea of being nourished by a religious story/tradition/idea appealed to you. But you're resistant to the notion of faith. What is the difference between the two things, in your mind?

That's an interesting question. Faith (or trust), for me, is pre-emptive; so we take things 'on trust'. But with a symbol or story, I can take it as is - or not. I suppose this is referring to commitment; I just plumb ran out of it. As I said, I'm a nomad; I enjoy the faiths of the world, in so far as I'm able and willing.

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stonespring
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
The "faith=will" position makes a lot more sense when we're talking about maintaining faith once it's already in existence. In that case, we're talking about faith in the sense of faithfulness--fidelity--keeping one's commitments in the face of passing moods.

We're not talking about stubborn holding-on-to-faith in the face of real counter evidence; any such evidence needs evaluating, of course, and that's fine.

What we are talking about is not just allowing yourself (once you are a Christian already) to drift aimlessly away from the faith through mere carelessness, or because you don't "feel it" today, or any of a myriad illogical excuses.

To change the analogy, once you marry the guy (girl), you keep working on the marriage.

But it's different than a marriage because in a marriage you know that the other partner exists when you marry them. You also know that you believe that the other partner exists when you marry them. I am not talking about doubts that cause one to lose one's faith. I am talking about doubt that cause someone to question whether or not their faith was ever there to begin with.
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Chorister

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I've heard the suggestion, when people have to get on with someone really difficult, that they should live 'as if' they liked them, even if they didn't. Apparently it is a lot less stressful to do this, rather than fighting all the time, and may eventually lead to natural liking.

Perhaps faith can be encouraged this way too. I'm pretty sure there are a significant number of priests, ministers and other churchgoers, who live 'as if' they believe, even when they are going through a time of strong doubts.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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DOEPUBLIC
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# 13042

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And if the partner doesn't appear to be responding ?
Faith by association or dissassociation.
Disciplining self or being disciplined ?
You don't stop being good, but is it for God-ness sake.? God spelling or good spelling ? God's news or good news ?

[ 03. March 2015, 22:44: Message edited by: DOEPUBLIC ]

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Belle Ringer
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One can "choose to" believe something if it's an abstract fact that has nothing to do with daily life. You can choose to believe somewhere in the universe is a planet with oceans of petroleum, or choose to believe that's a silly idea, and nothing in life is affected either way, so choosing is easy and uneventful.

Gets more awkward when life is affected. You can choose to believe the girl in the desk across the classroom from you loves you, but that belief will be challenged or reinforced by events, attempted interactions, and responses received. The chosen belief will be modified/abandoned (or reinforced) by experience that is hard to ignore when "choosing" what to believe.

We can choose to *behave* in ways that invite belief or disbelief, by choices of activities (pray, or reject the thought), and by who we mostly hang around with (believers or skeptics). Our chosen behaviors don't guarantee faith or non-faith but can make one route more likely than the other.

Yet, an activity that leads one person towards faith leads another away. For example, church attendance - a behavior some choose to explore the possibility of a God - pulls me into disinterest. Different personalities respond differently to the same stimulus. So it's hard to say what behaviors a person should choose if they want to invite faith.

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
In Minnesota! Not in Texas

Water reflects the sky.

As LeRoc says, water is mostly transparent, but very slightly blue.
[Smile] The artist and the scientist see and think differently. I no longer believe the scientist's way is always the most valuable or only accurate way to approach and interpret reality. I'm working to learn to see the art of reality.

Ask an artist what color water is, you'll get a lot more answers than "blue." Real life answers from personally observing real bodies of water. More fun and more experientially true than just the scientist's "blue."

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
The "faith=will" position makes a lot more sense when we're talking about maintaining faith once it's already in existence. In that case, we're talking about faith in the sense of faithfulness--fidelity--keeping one's commitments in the face of passing moods.

We're not talking about stubborn holding-on-to-faith in the face of real counter evidence; any such evidence needs evaluating, of course, and that's fine.

What we are talking about is not just allowing yourself (once you are a Christian already) to drift aimlessly away from the faith through mere carelessness, or because you don't "feel it" today, or any of a myriad illogical excuses.

To change the analogy, once you marry the guy (girl), you keep working on the marriage.

But it's different than a marriage because in a marriage you know that the other partner exists when you marry them. You also know that you believe that the other partner exists when you marry them. I am not talking about doubts that cause one to lose one's faith. I am talking about doubt that cause someone to question whether or not their faith was ever there to begin with.
Okay. I'm assuming from what you just wrote that this is a person who once was a Christian, at least in the opinion of himself and others; baptized, communicant, aware of the basic teachings of the Christian faith, particularly with regard to who Jesus is and what he did, and agreeing with them. Is that right?

If not, disregard everything I'm about to write. It doesn't apply. Let me know, and I'll take another stab.

If so, then the question becomes: Why am I (general I) feeling this terrible doubt? Is it because some new logical objection or evidence has cropped up against the faith? In that case, the thing to do is go consult some old, wise, educated Christians and lay the difficulty before them. Several different people, if necessary. It is extremely unlikely that I have just now run across the evidence-to-end-all-evidence that will overturn Christianity, and this particular issue has eluded all the great minds of the past 2000 years. It is far more likely that a good answer (or at least approach to the problem) exists out there, and if we ask around, someone will point us to it.

So.

Now if the answer to "What is causing my extreme doubt" is a non-logical, emotion-based thingy (technical term [Biased] ), then it's time to think again. Mere moods in either direction are not proof or disproof of Christianity; the same goes for gut feelings, likes and dislikes, and so forth. Those things exist, and can make the Christian life very uncomfortable indeed, but they do not affect the question of whether Christianity is actually true. If Christianity is true, then it is true in spite of my existential angst and my horror at the evil of the world; if Christianity is false, then it is false in spite of whatever warm fuzzies and burnings in my bosom I may be feeling when I pray or attend worship.

So, what to do when I feel this aching, horrid doubt that God is real, that Christ exists, that anybody out there gives a shit? There are a lot of suggestions, and some help some people and some help others. In my case, when one of these moods hits, I do this.

First of all, I pray about it. Honestly. As in, "God, I'm not even sure you exist anymore, and also I'm mad as hell that you allowed X to happen in my life when it's so evil." etc. etc. etc.

Second, I go back to the ordinary sources of Christian strength and help. That is, I read the Bible (particular sections as they pertain to particular problems!), I attend worship, I take communion, I talk with Christian friends.

Third (and this may sound odd), I remind myself that I was no fool at age such-and-such when I knowingly and with my eyes open became a Christian. The fact that an emotional tsunami is sweeping over me right now does not invalidate the clearer judgement of my younger self, who was NOT under extreme duress. Remembering that fact, I decide to hold on. Nobody makes good decisions in the middle of an emotional storm. If I thought it valid then, it probably is now. It's just that I am reeling drunk at the moment (to change the metaphor).

Fourth, I outwait it. Emotions and moods are by their very nature unstable. They come and go (though the bad ones never quickly enough!). I dig my feet into the ground like a mule at my present position and refuse to budge. "Here I stand," I mutter grouchily. "I'm not going ANYWHERE until things clear up!"

[By the way, I've found that last a useful principle in many areas of life, including marriage, jobs, deaths, etc. I make my worst decisions on the spur of the moment, when I am emotionally drunk. If I outwait the emotional storm, I often find out that no decision needs to be made at all--or if it does, it's a different one than the decision that first came to mind in the heat of the crisis. IMHO nobody should marry, divorce, buy or sell a house, or do anything else major and irrevocable until at least a year after the death of a loved one, or similar crisis. It almost always pays to wait.]

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Thing is, I was a complete idiot at 15, and not much brighter at 17-19 when I was at my most fervent.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
What if we substitute the word "trust" for "faith"? Might that help clear this up?

Not much. I wouldn't trust the brakes on my bike if I wasn't sure they were there.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Luigi
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# 4031

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quote:
Lamb Chopped said:

If so, then the question becomes: Why am I (general I) feeling this terrible doubt? Is it because some new logical objection or evidence has cropped up against the faith? In that case, the thing to do is go consult some old, wise, educated Christians and lay the difficulty before them. Several different people, if necessary. It is extremely unlikely that I have just now run across the evidence-to-end-all-evidence that will overturn Christianity, and this particular issue has eluded all the great minds of the past 2000 years. It is far more likely that a good answer (or at least approach to the problem) exists out there, and if we ask around, someone will point us to it.

I am beginning to understand why you consistently come to different conclusions to me.

You always seem to see the world from inside the Christian worldview looking out. So the great minds of the past 2000 years are inevitably the great Christian minds of the past 2000 years.

Whereas for me I would have to include in my assessment of the situation: why have so many of the greatest minds of the past 200 years actually
rejected Christianity? Is there real substance to some of their objections? Why have the vast majority of people over the past 2000 years not signed up to Christianity?

You then go on to mention prayer: part of the problem for me. Never felt there was anyone there actually listening to what I said.

Read the Bible: probably the point at which my doubts first crystallized - large sections are deeply disturbing.

Was I an idiot when I first made a commitment? Well perhaps not totally, but I certainly hadn't fully evaluated every single possible question / alternative answer. Still haven't, but the more I have asked questions the more I realise the answers out there by supposedly the best Christian apologeticists are just not very good.

So your approach seems to be 'defent at all costs' mine is 'is this right? could I have made a mistake?' After all there are many views that my younger self had, that I now know were pretty naive.

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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, for me the 'good answers' were part of the problem. And yes, I was as daft as a brush when I first got involved. That doesn't invalidate any of it, but I am a different person now.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Tha from Lancashire Quetz? My grandparents from Blackburn always used "Daft as a brush"

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Aye, lad, Oldham, or really, Owdam. Very near Yorks border also, so remember plenty of Yorkshireisms.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
I would have to include in my assessment of the situation: why have so many of the greatest minds of the past 200 years actually
rejected Christianity? Is there real substance to some of their objections? Why have the vast majority of people over the past 2000 years not signed up to Christianity?

The great minds of the past 200 years have believed all sorts of things, as far as I understand. If you want to make sure that you align your beliefs with all of theirs you might have to invent your own religion....

I'm quite grateful, to be honest, that Christianity isn't a religion devised by and for 'great minds'. How would that benefit the likes of ordinary little me?

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quetzalcoatl

You implied above that the idea of being nourished by a religious story/tradition/idea appealed to you. But you're resistant to the notion of faith. What is the difference between the two things, in your mind?

That's an interesting question. Faith (or trust), for me, is pre-emptive; so we take things 'on trust'. But with a symbol or story, I can take it as is - or not. I suppose this is referring to commitment; I just plumb ran out of it. As I said, I'm a nomad; I enjoy the faiths of the world, in so far as I'm able and willing.
Talking of inventing one's own religion, there's a sense in which we can only do this (and perhaps we all do it to some extent) due to the faith of others. So even if we have no faith ourselves, we stand on the shoulders of others who did in the past, and who do now. Nomads enjoy their freedom to roam, but they require others to stay at home and occasionally provide them with food and drink as they pass through....
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Very wise words, Svitlana. I sleep at nights in the shadows cast by giants; but also, giants become boring, if they pre-digest my food.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
quote:
Lamb Chopped said:

If so, then the question becomes: Why am I (general I) feeling this terrible doubt? Is it because some new logical objection or evidence has cropped up against the faith? In that case, the thing to do is go consult some old, wise, educated Christians and lay the difficulty before them. Several different people, if necessary. It is extremely unlikely that I have just now run across the evidence-to-end-all-evidence that will overturn Christianity, and this particular issue has eluded all the great minds of the past 2000 years. It is far more likely that a good answer (or at least approach to the problem) exists out there, and if we ask around, someone will point us to it.

I am beginning to understand why you consistently come to different conclusions to me.

You always seem to see the world from inside the Christian worldview looking out. So the great minds of the past 2000 years are inevitably the great Christian minds of the past 2000 years.

Whereas for me I would have to include in my assessment of the situation: why have so many of the greatest minds of the past 200 years actually
rejected Christianity? Is there real substance to some of their objections? Why have the vast majority of people over the past 2000 years not signed up to Christianity?

You then go on to mention prayer: part of the problem for me. Never felt there was anyone there actually listening to what I said.

Read the Bible: probably the point at which my doubts first crystallized - large sections are deeply disturbing.

Was I an idiot when I first made a commitment? Well perhaps not totally, but I certainly hadn't fully evaluated every single possible question / alternative answer. Still haven't, but the more I have asked questions the more I realise the answers out there by supposedly the best Christian apologeticists are just not very good.

So your approach seems to be 'defent at all costs' mine is 'is this right? could I have made a mistake?' After all there are many views that my younger self had, that I now know were pretty naive.

None of that is what I meant. We've got a major misunderstanding going on. But I'm reminded what an idiot I am to try posting on this board, and I think I'd better withdraw.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Luigi
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Svitlana - I have no idea where you got the idea that I want to align my thinking with all the great thinkers of the past couple of hundred years.

My point was almost the exact opposite. Lambchopped seemed to suggest that I consult (possibly trust) the voices of wise, old, educated Christianity. And my response was that there are many more voices out there (just as valid) as the Christian voices he/she points me to.

[ 04. March 2015, 14:46: Message edited by: Luigi ]

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Chorister

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

Water is blue.

Could this be rather like 'that dress is blue and black'. 'No, that dress is white and gold'.

What to one person is really obvious, another person can't see at all!

[ 04. March 2015, 20:55: Message edited by: Chorister ]

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Paul.
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# 37

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As I think I said somewhere I've had a long period as "faithfree" but I'm not now.

When I became so I didn't decide not to believe I decided to stop attending church, praying etc.

When I came back I didn't decide to believe I decided to start praying and then attending church again.

When I left I still basically believed as that wasn't really the issue that made me quit.

When I came back I thought the faith would still be there, sort of dormant, and have been shocked and saddened the degree to which it atrophied and which I can't, despite wanting to, just "turn it back on again". Even after a couple of years back, I'm still constantly on the edge of leaving.

In fact the main reason I don't is that I feel like the period of my life when I was away was not good, and so I'm determined that whilst there's a spark left I'm going to fan the flame. So the choice is not about switching from 100% non-belief to 100% belief (or vice-versa) it's about feeding those thoughts and feelings that I want to win (and, gulp, being prepared to deal with it, finally, if they don't in the end).

I also relate to LambChopped's thing about trusting an earlier me. Sometimes my current faith is so up and down, and I'm so confused that it's helpful to think, that there was a version of me who was pretty confident about this. And it's not just that he was no idiot (or rather, I'm no cleverer than he) it's that I can still remember what it felt like to have that kind of a faith and that's something I'd dearly love to have again.

When asked at my last homegroup what I wanted prayer for, I said, "Well my favourite prayer for myself at the moment is 'I believe, help my unbelief'"

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Luigi
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# 4031

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Paul - a very honest answer. I hope that either you can revive / hold on to your old faith. Or, that you can finds ways to live positively with the slightly less reassuring alternative.

[ 05. March 2015, 06:06: Message edited by: Luigi ]

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blackbeard
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# 10848

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Can someone help me here, please - I'm getting a little confused.

There seems to be an assumption in much of the above that the term "faith" has, to a working approximation, the same meaning as the term "belief".

So far as I can see, the two terms evidently do not mean the same thing, not even approximately. Faith has more the meaning of "a basis for action". This is also, more or less, so far as I can see, roughly the viewpoint found in the Bible.

So why, why, why is there such concern about the presence or absence of intellectual certainty, that is to say, of belief? Why can we not say "Here I am, and this is the way I go, and here is what I try to do?".

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
Can someone help me here, please - I'm getting a little confused.

There seems to be an assumption in much of the above that the term "faith" has, to a working approximation, the same meaning as the term "belief".

So far as I can see, the two terms evidently do not mean the same thing, not even approximately. Faith has more the meaning of "a basis for action". This is also, more or less, so far as I can see, roughly the viewpoint found in the Bible.

So why, why, why is there such concern about the presence or absence of intellectual certainty, that is to say, of belief? Why can we not say "Here I am, and this is the way I go, and here is what I try to do?".

Because if the object of that faith doesn't actually exist, then it's a bit pointless trying to interact with it.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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