|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: January Book Group: "WITCHES ABROAD", by Terry Pratchett
|
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
|
Posted
Palimpsest: quote:
You can explain things by saying that this was written 20 years ago (In the last century!) but it still needs explaining or hand waving which ruins the magic. I'm chewing on why one stereotype bothers me (and you'd have a hard time arguing Mrs Gogol isn't a magical Negro [Smile] ) and another one like the three witches 3 doesn't. I think in part it's because he's weaving the witch stereotype into something richer and odder, and he's not doing that much of that with Mrs. Gogol although he is with Baron Samedi.
Well, as Pratchett says explicitly that she is black, I wasn't planning to argue that she was not a Negro (although I wouldn't normally use That Word). And it's not really remarkable that she is a magic user, in a world where magic is possible. I agree she's not really fully developed as a character, but she's not just a stereotype.
Anyway, Granny and the others turn up to help her: does that make them Magical Whiteys?
Plus, what Paul said.
quote:
I think the last time Pratchett bothered me was when he was talking about Chinese pawnbrokers. It may be that I'm an American hypersensitive to racial stereotypes while the British are too busy with class to give a lot of time to racism.
I think (with the greatest possible respect) you're projecting your own issues onto a product of a different culture. We do it to you as well, but although we have race issues over here they are different. Because, as you so rightly remark, British people are more conscious of class issues than Americans. Baroness Warsi may not be white, but she definitely outranks me, and not just because she's richer; I don't think the Beckhams outrank me even though they're world-famous and rolling in money.
I also think that Pratchett (as a very popular writer) has had a lot of positive influence on popular culture because his work challenges stereotypes in a very subtle way. It's quite clever the way he's used the idea of dwarfs coming 'out' as female in his later books to make people think about attitudes to LGBQT people, for example. And in 'The Truth', he has a nice contrast between William de Worde (who was brought up to be prejudiced against other species but is struggling against his conditioning, not always successfully) and his father (who is a right bastard of the traditional, damn-your-eyes aristocratic type).
Maybe it's a pond difference. I prefer books in this style, that *show* you something you need to think about, to the more preachy 'This-is-the-moral-of-the-story-and-you-must-agree-with-it' type that hit you in the face with it and then beat you over the head a few times just to make sure you get it. That's one of the reasons why I didn't like 'Snuff', although it did have its moments; it seemed more soapbox-y than his usual style (and yes, slavery and genocide are both bad and evil things that everyone should oppose; I find being preached at irritating even when I agree with the moral of the story).
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
QLib
Bad Example
# 43
|
Posted
I had read it before, but I went through a phase when I read so many Pratchetts that I got them a bit muddled. I remembered there was a book where they meet someone who practices Voodoo, but not that it was this one.
I think the journey part of the book is much better and funnier - so many great lines, including the about the vampire not rising from the cat.
Although Pratchett specialises in phenomena which broadly parallel earthly phenomena, I felt he was ill at ease with Voodoo - perhaps he was uncertain about his understanding of it and worried about seeming ignorant or disrespectful - I felt it lacked that surety of touch, so it's not funny enough, though in the end quite touching, because of the couple's care for their daughter.
I think the brutal deaths are not untypical of Pratchett - he occasionally wants to remind us that evil characters really are evil.
I'm inclined to feel that the character of Magrat is a bit inconsistent. I accept that it's possible to argue that she's just developed and grown, but I'm not actually convinced.
--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
--Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?
I thought I had read Witches Abroad before, but I suspect I gave up on it fairly early on (probably because it was due back at the library). I read every Pratchett I could lay my hands on for a while, and then switched off and hadn't read him for quite a while. Even though my daughter grew up and started reading him in the meantime.
--Favorite characters, scenes, lines?
The bull thing, that poor vampire meeting Greebo, Greebo as human, some of Nanny Ogg's letters home, the card sharps on the boat ... The fact I ended up feeling sorry for a vampire. Nice to see Death again.
I did enjoy and remember the house falling on Nanny Ogg and the very confused Munchkins. I found that funny the first time I read this (unless it's also in another book too).
--Disliked characters, scenes, lines?
Ella wasn't that exciting a character, and the Duc felt a bit cardboard cut out - even for a humanised frog.
--Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?
The idea of stories felt a bit ironic being written into a story - but also echoed some of Diana Wynne Jones' ideas in Howl's Moving Castle. But the idea of fulfilling expectations is wider just than stories, isn't it? The roles that people are forced into within families could be seen as another version of story telling.
--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?
Really strong feeling of the dangers of magic, how abuse of powers backfires. The use of headology versus real magic and Granny Weatherwax's obvious powers was an interesting concept - but I am not sure it works as a way of making magic less powerful.
--What do you think happens to Lilith?
Stuck in the mirror as she has lost her identity in the images - Death wouldn't have been there if something wasn't going to happen to Lilith or Granny, and Granny released herself.
--Which characters would you like to hang out with?
They aren't really people I'd want to hang out with, watch as a fly on the wall or from a nice safe distance, maybe. But not actually get involved with.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I enjoyed my reread - may be anything upto the twentieth time I have read this book. I have read most of his others two.
I think my favourite quote, amongst many, is about the Gods being the best Mrs Gogol was able to make.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
cattyish
Wuss in Boots
# 7829
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?
Really strong feeling of the dangers of magic, how abuse of powers backfires. The use of headology versus real magic and Granny Weatherwax's obvious powers was an interesting concept - but I am not sure it works as a way of making magic less powerful.
I think you're right Curiosity, in that Granny seems to think that she needs a limit, and that limiting herself to the very powerful practice of headology and a few select tricks is enough. She is still in danger of setting herself up as judge, jury and executioner. In another book she actually remembers acting as judge and jury, passing the sentence, "End it in hemp." after reading the dark thoughts of the accused.
Cattyish, wet hen.
--------------------
...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived, this is to have succeeded.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Posts: 1794 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
It was in the middle of the night, in an episode of insomnia, that I finally understood the alligator sandwich joke.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
|
Posted
Qlib: quote:
I'm inclined to feel that the character of Magrat is a bit inconsistent. I accept that it's possible to argue that she's just developed and grown, but I'm not actually convinced.
I agree her behaviour is inconsistent, but I find it perfectly understandable; she's an intelligent, well-meaning woman (with, as Pratchett points out, the instincts of a witch and the common sense to use them) who's inclined to doubt herself and overshadowed by Granny. But if you put her in a corner, she turns out to be a mongoose. She's really quite a strong character, but the strength is usually buried under a façade of wet hen and only comes out when there's no alternative.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dal Segno
al Fine
# 14673
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
...the thing that is sticking in my mind is the fate of the coachmen and the footmen. It is unlike Pratchett's usual dealing with death....
...but it resonates well with some of the things that happen in Good Omens which Pratchett co-wrote with Neil Gaiman the previous year. I wonder whether this is an overspill from Gaiman's darker style into Pratchett's mainstream writing.
--------------------
Yet ever and anon a trumpet sounds
Posts: 1200 | From: Pacific's triple star | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
I was meaning to reread that again. It was the first of Pratchett's I read, having spotted the Richmal Crompton stuff on glancing through it. Then I heard "Equal Rites" on Woman's Hour. Then I read in chronological order, one every time I sent in an OU assignment.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boadicea Trott
Shipmate
# 9621
|
Posted
Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?
Yes, I've read all the Discworld series several times ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Favorite characters, scenes, lines?
Lots of memorable things, but my personal favourites are the vampire bat desperately trying to get into the Witches' rooms, which always raises a smile, as does Greebo in human form trying to curl up in front of the fire.
Nanny's linguistic grasp of "Foreign" is priceless.
Nanny and Granny are brilliant together but Magrat's character never seemed to quite work as well in this book. Greebo is awesome, as always.
Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?
I think stories have a life of their own but can be tweaked to a certain degree; any more than that can cause chaos. Lilith never learned that fundamental concept, whereas Granny seemed always to have known it at an innate level.
What do you think happens to Lilith?
I think she remained trapped in her mirror construct because she never recognised herself as she really was but was always looking for who she thought she was. Very sad.
--------------------
X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 563 | From: Roaming the World in my imagination..... | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
...but it resonates well with some of the things that happen in Good Omens which Pratchett co-wrote with Neil Gaiman the previous year. I wonder whether this is an overspill from Gaiman's darker style into Pratchett's mainstream writing.
Except that in Good Omens, Adam pulls a Deus ex at the end and puts everything back. Or at least most of everything - I don't think the biker gang gets a reprieve.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?
Read this one several times, and many other Pratchetts.
Favorite characters, scenes, lines?
Lancre coven—Their usual irritating, catastrophic, fighting for good despite themselves, wonderful selves.
Casanunda—He’s a sweetie and a scamp.
Death—I like him very much. (Helps to have read many Disc World books, because he grows and changes.) Terry Pratchett recounted someone telling him that they’d like to meet Death when they died. TP said that made him go and stare out the window, for a while. I wouldn’t mind meeting him, either.
Palace cook—Very much queen of her realm, and capable of dealing with Greebo.
Mrs. Gogol and Baron Saturday—really interesting. Not sure how much time I’d want to spend with them.
My favorite scene was when the baron showed up at the ball. I’d figured out earlier that he was Baron Samedi, lord of the cemetery in Voodoo. So I was prepared for Interesting Things—especially with Mrs.Gogol backing him up. When he tapped his way down those stairs, bringing all of life with him, it was powerfully beautiful.
Disliked characters, scenes, lines?
Lilith—Though I think she really believed—consciously—that she was doing good things. She has the same streak of arrogance that her sister does—but Lilith got to the bad girl role first, and Esme had to take “the good one”. That may well have saved Esme—and Disc World, for that matter.
Snake girls—Shudder.
I think what the Lancre coven did to Greebo was very, very wrong. They used him, without his permission.
Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?
Tricky things, stories. They shouldn’t be forced to happen. People should be able and encouraged to make their own choices.
Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?
Mrs. Gogol’s is rooted in giving power to the poor and powerless, via focusing nature. That seems to be more or less neutral, until it gets used for revenge.
Lilith’s is bad, because she roots it in doing bad things. She’s spent every minute since adolescence bending the world to her will. She’s more like a Disc World wizard than witch.
Granny deals with the same temptations, every minute. It’s a horrible struggle, and she stumbles a lot. But, somewhere along the way, she learned some balance and restraint—and, most importantly, that the best magic is helping people “with skin”—getting involved and doing what needs to be done.
I’ll take Granny’s version—with some help from Nanny and Magrat.
What do you think happens to Lilith?
I hope that, some day, she gets bored enough to just pick one and go through.
Which characters would you like to hang out with?
Well, it would depend on the circumstances. But all the favorites I listed. An hours-long, informal dinner or picnic, with everyone providing entertainment.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Thanks, everyone who participated. Feel free to continue the discussion, if you like.
Anyone else who wants to can jump in, too. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
