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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » The Dress Of Many Colors--What Do YOU See? (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Dress Of Many Colors--What Do YOU See?
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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I see a definite contrast, but my brain still wants to interpret the lighter color in the dress photo as a shadow.

Something like white text laid over an image like this.

[ 28. February 2015, 19:06: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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jedijudy

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# 333

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I see dark periwinkle blue and charcoal gray.
This is so interesting!

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moonlitdoor
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# 11707

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That image you linked to is quite interesting Kelly Alves. If you asked me what colour the snow in the foreground of that picture is, I would say that it is grayish blue. Although snow looks white in normal light, my brain does not think 'it's snow so it must be white'.

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balaam

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# 4543

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To Monet snow was almost anything but white.

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Curiosity killed ...

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When you paint colours are interesting - shadows aren't black, but take on the colours that surround them or contrast them. Same with snow, which reflects all the colours around, including the sky. Trying to paint to make colours that look right you have to do a lot of juggling because we interpret a lot.

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Ariel
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# 58

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That was why I got the pantones for this dress (on the previous page of this thread) which are clearly blue and brown. There is a subconscious expectation that clouds are white etc, but if you take a photo and sample the colours you will pretty quickly see that they are not.

The dress company are now bringing out a design in white and gold, by the way.

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Jane R
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# 331

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In that photo I saw blue, black and dark gold/light brown. However, just to confuse things I have seen another photo of the dress where it looked white and gold and yet another where it looked dark blue and black.

I suggest we name this colour Chameleon.

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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For those who want a spoiler there is this explanation on the BBC. Sorry if that is not available internationally.

Jengie

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Stumbling Pilgrim
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# 7637

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Ooh, something really odd just happened. I've been seeing this photograph throughout as white and gold (with a bluish tint to the white which my brain interpreted as a lighting effect), and even when I tried to tell my brain to see blue and black it refused. When I looked at the whole of the second picture in the link in the OP, I saw white and gold as usual. But when I scrolled down to read the text so I could only see the bottom half of the picture, I distinctly saw, for the first time, blue and black, though not as intense a blue as the dress actually is. If I scroll up and down now I can see the colours change, but strangely, if I can only see the top half I still see white and gold.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
For those who want a spoiler there is this explanation on the BBC.

And, of course, here's the xkcd.
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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
To Monet snow was almost anything but white.

Same for Joseph Farquharson.

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Jonah the Whale

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# 1244

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
When you paint colours are interesting - shadows aren't black, but take on the colours that surround them or contrast them. Same with snow, which reflects all the colours around, including the sky. Trying to paint to make colours that look right you have to do a lot of juggling because we interpret a lot.

I think the shadow thing is interesting. I notice when you project black text onto a white wall your eyes really see the text as black. In fact the wall is still the same colour as it was, but the surrounding part of the rectangle has become a brighter white. There is clearly no way you can genuinely project a "black" image using white light.
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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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I randomly walked into a local bar to get away from the rain today,a nd some dude came rushing up to a table full of girls with his Iphone extended, shouting "WHAT COLOR IS THE DRESS??!!"

I officially went loopy at that point. I have had it with the dress. What the hell is in store for the future when the major tipping point for 2015 is some damn dress? I fear it is only a portent of further madness to come.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Having said all that:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:


The dress company are now bringing out a design in white and gold, by the way.

Shiny!
[Cool]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

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Yesterday I worked as a substitute teacher in a small school as a favor to a friend. And all the students from about 5th grade up were talking about that damned dress. I was grateful that I had already seen it on FB so I could have a little credibility. Also, I was able to effectively jump on a trio of 6th-grade boys at the back of the classroom, when I overheard one of them say "white and gold!" when they were supposed to be doing homework on their computers.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Did you give them a demerit for the day for being, like, WRONG? [Big Grin]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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mousethief

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# 953

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My kids came into first period on Friday fiercely debating the color of the dress. I let them talk about it for a while, and we took a straw poll. It was about 50% blue and black, 25% white and gold, and 25% undecided. I was not expecting this to be how we started the period! By second period apparently they had all hashed it out in their first period classes, so there was no discussion of it.

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Wesley J

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# 6075

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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
For those who want a spoiler there is this explanation on the BBC. Sorry if that is not available internationally.

Jengie

The link was posted here ten hours earlier. Same old, same old.

Are we still talking about that dress? I don't believe it! [Help] [Two face]

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:


But the actual dress is blue and black. Here it is.


Boy, it didn't take the Amazon.com peanut gallery long to ransack those reviews, did it?

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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To me, the Amazon example and some others I've seen simply look like a white and gold dress in a bluish shadow. Same with the snow photo to which someone linked: white snow under a blue shadow.

The OP link has a copy of the original photo of the dress--evidently, an actual printed photo (ISTM), and not the cell phone pic that was originally posted to tumblr. (It's about halfway down, past the point where you have to click "Read More".) The dress (on the MiL, on the left) looks like a solid dark color to me--possibly more dark blue than black.

WIRED magazine has a good article.

Scientific America has an article, too. Personally, I prefer the WIRED article, and SciAm makes reference to it. But SciAm also has a pic showing that, when you view the dress at the vendor's site and use the magnifier there, *the magnified part of the dress looks white and gold*.

YMMV.

[ 01. March 2015, 06:55: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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In the end, the only answer to "What colour is this?" is "What colour do you see?"

Colour blind people know that objectivity is an illusion.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
In the end, the only answer to "What colour is this?" is "What colour do you see?"

Colour blind people know that objectivity is an illusion.

A colour blind person with a spectrophotometer will measure exactly the same spectrum as an ordinarily sighted person.
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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
In the end, the only answer to "What colour is this?" is "What colour do you see?"

Colour blind people know that objectivity is an illusion.

A colour blind person with a spectrophotometer will measure exactly the same spectrum as an ordinarily sighted person.
Fair point, but I don't think I know any artists who would be interested in such an exercise. In fact, I think I hear Cézanne turning in his grave.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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Yes but perception is not just about what impacts our eyes it is also about the words were have to describe colour. I came across this article in the wake of the dress story. I wonder how many here can tell the difference between the greens in the fourth picture down.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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jj--

I can't see the difference.

Thanks for that great article!

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Yes but perception is not just about what impacts our eyes it is also about the words were have to describe colour.

So I was discussing that article with some friends, and it seems to me that it's really not about what words we use. In the article, the members of the tribe-that-doesn't-understand-blue are unable to distinguish between a blue square and a green one. That's not a difference in language, it's a difference in perception.

Assuming that the tribal members have the same number of short (blue-sensitive) cones as most other people, we're not talking about a physical insensitivity to blue.

But the signals from the rods and cones in the eye are mapped to perceived colour by the brain. I could imagine that if you never saw blue, your brain might be trained to see the short cone as another brightness signal, like the rods, and so your perceptual colour space was quite different from most people's.

And naturally, if you couldn't see blue as being a different colour from green, you wouldn't need to develop a word for it. So I think the language we use is a consequence of the perception we have, and not vice versa.


(I'm no kind of expert here - I'm expecting IngoB to show up and put me right any moment.)

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Jengie, bizarre! I got it right! [Yipee]

I think the article is a bit muddled, though. The ancient Hebrews did have a blue dye (distinct from purple) and this was considered holy. There's been a big foofaraw the past few years as they think they've finally identified the right historic color (=coming from the right organic source, a snail) for use in prayer shawls, etc. And of course there was a word for it, though I'll not inflict my haphazard memory on y'all here.

Vietnamese has one word, xanh, for both blue and green. It is not that they don't see the distinction--they do--but when they feel a need to be clearer than just "xanh," they handle it by using a "like" phrase--xanh like the sky, xanh like the grass. (there's a parallel situation with limes and lemons, which are both "chanh," though they clearly see the difference. It's just that a difference that makes no difference IS no difference, linguistically, and they rarely have a need to distinguish between big yellow chanh and small green chanh. Both are sour, that's the point. And both can be used in phỏ!

But this does carry over into English problems, where even today my husband is as likely to use "green" for "blue" and vice versa. This bothered me so much I brought a Pantone color wheel set home to test him, in case he was actually perceiving something else. He wasn't. It was more a matter of "blue, green, xanh, who cares? Does it really matter?"

Which made for a very interesting discussion when he finally grasped the idea that my aunt had green eyes. The rest of the family having blue eyes, he just kept agreeing with me "Yes, of course she has green(=xanh) eyes, so do you all have the same (=xanh) eyes, why are we even having this conversation?" Finally I resorted to point and compare, and got total amazement out of him. He had never seen a human being with "xanh-like-grass" eyes, only "xanh-like-sky". So he clearly knew the difference, and knew ahead of time that real people just don't HAVE those-color eyes (heh). But the language was getting in the way.

If you think about it, English is weird in having a special name for pastel red--i.e. pink. Why? We don't have a special separate name for pastel green, or blue, or orange. I suppose we do for black (= gray). And there are the artsy names most of us don't learn till vocabulary class in school, like lilac and lavendar. But these are uncommon and rarely used.

Seriously, when was the last time anybody described a dress as pastel red?

Are other languages like this?

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ChastMastr
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# 716

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There was an amusing scene in one of the retellings of the origin of the Legion of Super-Heroes (which is set in the distant future), and one of the characters reacts to his costume: "Pink? But I asked for pale scarlet!" [Smile]

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Ariel
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# 58

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"Glas" is Irish for both green and grey.

The colour of the sky does change a lot though so I'm not really surprised if "blue" isn't the default answer. The sky can be rosy, white, grey, azure, dark navy or almost black during the course of an average 24 hours but isn't limited to that.

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JoannaP
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# 4493

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LC,

I can't remember all the details, but languages seem to acquire words for colour in a standard order and having one word for "grue" is not uncommon. If you want to know more, I recommend Through the Looking Glass by Guy Deutscher.
AFAIK, Russian is the only language to have a colour distinction that English does not; they use totally different words for light blue and navy blue.

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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

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Penny S
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# 14768

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I always get mad when people go on about Homer and the wine-dark sea. If you look at it at certain times of day (I used to have a calendar picture of a sunset) it jolly well looks like a red wine. Have these people no eyes?

Then there's the word kyan. Apparently it cannot be interpreted as related to modern cyan. But it was used not only for clouds and rocks, but also for Egyptian faience, which is a turquoise colour.

There is a group of people who do not want the Greeks to have seen blue.

Athena is described as glaukopticon - which, like the Irish glas, is either grey or green, perhaps cabbagey?

I think it would be interesting to test people with a printed spectrum with no clues as to the boundaries between colours, and ask them to draw dividing lines and identify the colours that thay have divided the thing into. I suspect there would be a lot of variation in the position of the green/blue division, as I think people have learned different names for parts of the peacock/petrol/teal/turquoise range. And I bet they wouldn't find indigo easy to find, either.

And I saw pale blue/gold, interpreting the blue as white, until I moved the screen to a different angle.

[ 03. March 2015, 10:50: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
jj--

I can't see the difference.

Thanks for that great article!

I did, and I agree it's subtle.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I see a definite contrast, but my brain still wants to interpret the lighter color in the dress photo as a shadow.

Something like white text laid over an image like this.

Exactly that. The one with the overwriting on it does look bluer than the same photo without the writing, but my brain is still informing me in no uncertain terms that it's actually badly photographed white.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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JoannaP
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# 4493

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I think it would be interesting to test people with a printed spectrum with no clues as to the boundaries between colours, and ask them to draw dividing lines and identify the colours that thay have divided the thing into. I suspect there would be a lot of variation in the position of the green/blue division, as I think people have learned different names for parts of the peacock/petrol/teal/turquoise range. And I bet they wouldn't find indigo easy to find, either.

Linguists armed with standardised colour charts have interrogated people speaking different languages and in different cultures and there is surprising agreement about which is the reddest red and the yellowest yellow etc. and the dividing lines between the main colours. When people who do not distinguish between blue and green are asked to point to the gruest grue, the majority choose the colour that those who do distinguish think is the bluest blue and the minority the greenest green. None choose the blue-green area, which suggests that we do perceive colours very similarly, just have very different words for them.

Reverting to an earlier point made by Lamb Chopped, IIRC, most languages that have a word for brown, also have a word for pink. Humans apparently do see the need to have a special word for pale red but not pale green. [Confused]

Penny, the book by Guy Deutscher that I recommended above starts with a discussion of Homeric colour terms and the misunderstandings that have arisen. It really is a fascinating read - it was also interesting to learn that so much research has been done in this area.

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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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Once I had a car that to me was purple and to everybody else was dark blue.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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jedijudy

Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Once I had a car that to me was purple and to everybody else was dark blue.

I get made fun of quite a lot because I will identify something as purple, and everyone else sees blue. Perhaps we can see the bit of red in the color?

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lilBuddha
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JoannaP,

Perhaps because humans come in shades of brown and pink, but not shades of green?

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Pearl B4 Swine
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From babyhood on, kids are taught what the names of colors are. The name of the color of leaves on most trees is "green". So they learn to name other things that look the same way, like cars, or paint, or peas as "green". But I wonder if what they call green is the same as what I call green.

My mother had a party dress made of a fabric called watered taffeta. It was bluish-lavender, and had a pattern of wavy designs which shifted around when you moved the fabric. I was fascinated with this dress, and loved looking at it, making the pastel colors melt into each other and shift. Does anyone else remember "watered taffeta"?

Just yesterday I was staring at tiny blobs of ice on a yew tree in my back yard. The sunshine was causing them to appear twinkling different vivid colors. Beautiful. Yes, prisms.

One last thing: Dazzle camouflage. Fooling the eye by obliterating the edges of shapes by pattern and color. Used on ships trying to avoid enemy hits in both World Wars. I'm straying away from "what color is this dress" a good bit, but still related to how, and by what name people perceive color.

BTW, I see The Dress as a very pale blue, with muddy gold strips.

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Oinkster

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Kelly Alves

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I just got a puzzle app, a d boy, has it been making me think of this conversation. At one point I was tryimg to figure oit where this mustard yellow piece went, and it turned out it was a shadowed bit of a bright orange wall.

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Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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LeRoc

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quote:
jedijudy: I get made fun of quite a lot because I will identify something as purple, and everyone else sees blue. Perhaps we can see the bit of red in the color?
I get a lot of that too. I don't know if I still have a picture of my old car, it would be interesting to put it through Gimp and see if there's any red in there. Maybe we're more sensitive for red than most people.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
From babyhood on, kids are taught what the names of colors are. The name of the color of leaves on most trees is "green". So they learn to name other things that look the same way, like cars, or paint, or peas as "green". But I wonder if what they call green is the same as what I call green.

I believe that Japanese has no word for "green" - thus traffic lights are "blue". Whether the availability of a word for a colour has any effect on peoples' perceptions of it, I do not know. (For instance, some descriptions of a rainbow's colours include "indigo" as a separate colour, while others don't).
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Piglet
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
... And I saw pale blue/gold, interpreting the blue as white, until I moved the screen to a different angle.

So did I; the further up the screen the image was, the closer to blue/black it became.

I'd love to see the dress in Real Life™, in broad daylight, and then in artificial light, just to see what colour(s) I perceived it to be.

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Trudy Scrumptious

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I've been firmly on Team White/Gold since the picture started circulating -- I can accept that the actual dress, as pictured in other photos such as the Amazon site, actually IS blue and black, but I haven't been able to see the original photo as anything other than white and gold, and couldn't understand how anyone else was seeing blue/black in that particular photo.

I just opened my Facebook feed and a friend's post about "the dress" was at the top of the page, and I immediately saw it as blue and black. First time ever seeing it that way. Wow. Brains are weird eh?

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Graven Image
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Blue and Gold although the gold looks more like brown.
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Penny S
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I will have to look out for that book.*

People do not actually come in pink, like they don't come in white - they come in a sort of beige with some red in. Pale brown, basically. Pink isn't, in my opinion, just pale red - unless the red is crimson, with some blue in it. Pale scarlet is a bit different from what is usually identified as pink. And some pinks are quite dark - I am currently wearing some, probably a deep rose - rather like the cover of "Check your privilege" up to the right.

I remember being with my nieces, when very small, looking through a magazine while my sister made a meal. We were talking about colour. "And don't," she instructed me, "dare tell them about pink." So we turned over the page, only to discover roses. "What is that colour?" they asked. Can't remember how we resolved that.

Two odd things have stuck in my mind regarding perceptions. One was the story of a young girl who had had severely limited early years, donfined in one room without contact. when rescued, she was taught language, and taken about to experience the world. In a haberdashery, she asked about the colours of threads, and was surprised that there was not an individual colour name for each shade.

The other was the parrot Alex and his tutor Irene Pepperberg. He had been taught primary colour words associated with plastic shapes, and the TV programme was demonstrating that he could answer correctly. If he was asked the colour, he would use the colour word. If asked the shape, he would use the shape word. So far so good. He knew yellow, blue and red. Then Pepperberg showed him a corn cob, which he asked for. She told him he could have it if he told her the colour. He repeated that he wanted it. She repeated that he must tell her the colour. He hunched his wings. He sulked. He would not tell her the colour. My friend and I watched, enchanted, especially as Alex announced, as he shuffled along the perch, "I go away now."

It seemed to me that he simply had not realised that the colour he had seen in the plastic geometric shape was supposed to be the same as a corn cob. Which it isn't.

*I have a reason for wanting to know about the interpretation of Homer's use of kyan.

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Banner Lady
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In a room with 4 children and 5 adults, everyone saw the same pic on my daughter's iPhone. 2 of the boys saw blue & black, the rest of us gold & white.

My reaction to all this was: 'Hmmm I wonder how many poor science teachers are going to have to wade through badly written project pieces this year about this stupid pic?"

I feel sorry for all those people who are now fretting about their own ability to perceive colour, or everyone else's ability to see truth.

It may seem like a dumb story, but I reckon it WILL have consequences. I will be fascinated to see how long it takes for the dress to be forgotten by the media.

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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.

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Eutychus
From the edge
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It already has; we're on to weasels riding on woodpeckers' backs now. Thankfully.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Penny S
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Forgot to mention - about indigo. There is a reason it is hard to see. (I can't) It was an artefact of the other side of Isaac Newton's mind. There had to be seven colours to tie up with seven astrological planets (including Sun and Moon) and the seven notes of the Pythagorean scale from doh to ti. And probably the days of the week and anything else that comes in sevens. Like the seven seals (and all the rest) of Revelation. The seven stars of the Plough, Orion, or the Pleieades. Or the seven major metals (ruled by the planets) - gold, silver, quicksilver, copper, iron, tin and lead

Six would make more sense for people with three colour receptors, or with reference to three primary pigments. But seven were necessary for the light to fit with astrology and alchemy. Indigo is what happens when that sort of thing is mixed with science.

[ 03. March 2015, 21:45: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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quetzalcoatl
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That's not a weasel, that's my ex-wife in a gold dress. Oops, am I allowed to say that?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Gwai
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What Curiosity Killed said. I see the dress behind the Or as a very light shade of blue that I am translating to a-bad-picture-of-white and the word or is a pure white.

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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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