Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eurovision Song Contest
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
Less than an hour to the first semi-final, and no thread yet? So I'm starting one.
Hugal's nipped out for snacks, the Baileys is open and my typing fingers are ready to start making notes. I'll post my traditional reviews of the shenanigans at some point on this thread.
As for our song this year, well, at least it will stand out as a bit of fun amid a sea of earnestly belted ballads. OK, so it may sound like a cross between a 1920s Charleston ditty and the Birds Eye Potato Waffles song, but at least it sticks in the brain.
Let the snark-fest begin!
-------------------- *sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Snark-fest?
I see it more as a celebration of the camp, cheesy, awkward and downright naff.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
Trust me, there'll be plenty of snark on this thread.
-------------------- *sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Go Australia!
Actually, I've not heard any of the songs (if that's the correct word) yet this year. But, the word "Eurovision" does sort of imply European ... and Australia. Love it.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Mr Curly
Off to Curly Flat
# 5518
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: Go Australia!
Actually, I've not heard any of the songs (if that's the correct word) yet this year. But, the word "Eurovision" does sort of imply European ... and Australia. Love it.
Still can't work out why we're there, but bring it on! What happens if we win??
mr curly down under
-------------------- My Blog - Writing, Film, Other Stuff
Posts: 2645 | From: Curly Flat | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
I caught a tiny bit of it last night, but hadn't been drinking so it looked awful. Definitely need to neck a few shots of schnapps early on Saturday night.
-------------------- I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it. Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Mr Curly: Still can't work out why we're there, but bring it on!
Someone in an Australian broadcasting company paid a great wad of cash?
quote: What happens if we win??
In theory, you get to host the contest next year.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Kittyville
Shipmate
# 16106
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Posted
Something to do with how big a deal it is here, Mr Curly, and the SBS is an associate member of the European Broadcasting Union, or something like that.
And apparently not, Alan - although the EBU might be missing a trick if we do win and they stick to that position.
Posts: 291 | From: Sydney | Registered: Dec 2010
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Wet Kipper
Circus Runaway
# 1654
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Posted
I heard that this year is a "trial run" for teh Aussies, and if they win then they will be a regular feature in further years, at which point another win would mean hosting the next one, as everyone else is forced to do
-------------------- - insert randomly chosen, potentially Deep and Meaningful™ song lyrics here -
Posts: 9841 | From: further up the Hill | Registered: Nov 2001
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
I usually miss Eurovision, as I lack a TV, but this year friends have invited us over to celebrate with them
-------------------- 'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams Dog Activity Monitor My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Celebrate. One of us is unsure of the meaning of this word.
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
If Australia are in it then it's gone global and it needs to change its name and become The Globovision Song contest, or something.
It's not the same as when it had Terry in it and the whole thing took three hours with commentary like "Hello everybody from beautiful Malta. The weather is fine and hot and you [to host] are looking super exquisite and utterly charming tonight" with whatever equally witty response then drowned out by Terry muttering "Just get on with it" in a tone of quiet despair.
"And here are the results of the Maltese jury. Finland, one point." Which would immediately be echoed by someone else in French, "Finland, un point". Slowly and excruciatingly until it became clear who had Nul Points and would be safe from having to host the contest for the next year.
Ah, those were the days.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
It's been years since anything but novelty songs were on Eurovision. The average pub band writes stuff that's better than most Eurovision winners, never mind the also-runs. The whole thing would depress me if it weren't so laughable.
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist: I usually miss Eurovision, as I lack a TV, but this year friends have invited us over to celebrate with them
We celebrate not only with booze, but with cheese. It seems appropriate.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: The whole thing would depress me if it weren't so laughable.
It would depress me if I watched it sober. That is why I enjoy it.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ariel: If Australia are in it then it's gone global
It's not as if Israel or Azerbaijan are exactly European either.
I only caught some of it - but there seemed to be a thing for having a woman in a chiffon dress standing in a wind tunnel against a backdrop of blasted forest.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by balaam: quote: Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist: I usually miss Eurovision, as I lack a TV, but this year friends have invited us over to celebrate with them
We celebrate not only with booze, but with cheese. It seems appropriate.
A good point, I will ensure I take some cheese with me in case we haven't had our fill. I must make some voting paddles, my own point scheme is usually based on the their choice of outfits.
-------------------- 'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams Dog Activity Monitor My shop
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I'm surprised anyone watches that rubbish. At least I'm spared it in Oz as it will be on in the middle of the night.
-------------------- "My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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David
Complete Bastard
# 3
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Posted
Eurovision hasn't been the same for me since "My Lovely Horse" came last.
Posts: 3815 | From: Redneck Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: It's been years since anything but novelty songs were on Eurovision.
I liked last year's final enough to buy the CD.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Wet Kipper
Circus Runaway
# 1654
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: It's been years since anything but novelty songs were on Eurovision.
Given that the Common Linnets'song is still memorable a year later, I would beg to differ Just shame it didn't win.
-------------------- - insert randomly chosen, potentially Deep and Meaningful™ song lyrics here -
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by David: Eurovision hasn't been the same for me since "My Lovely Horse" came last.
Yes, I agree. That was a clear winner in my view. All the effort that went into that, too. [ 22. May 2015, 11:07: Message edited by: Ariel ]
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
A bit of a disaster in the Rogue household - we are going camping over the weekend so will have to enjoy it on the radio without being able to see (except in our minds) what is going on. You never know: if we like it we might always do it that way.
-------------------- If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: It's been years since anything but novelty songs were on Eurovision.
I liked last year's final enough to buy the CD.
Not sure what conclusion to draw from that.
Given that this is Aust's first year in the event, it's amazing just how little attention it's drawing here. Not on the SMH website (or the ABC News one either), no front page on other papers, no sounds of people talking about it on the trains. Someone has probably done a fair sum of money on it.
-------------------- Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Rogue: A bit of a disaster in the Rogue household - we are going camping over the weekend so will have to enjoy it on the radio without being able to see (except in our minds) what is going on. You never know: if we like it we might always do it that way.
In the days of the much missed Ray Moore we always listened to his commentary. So much better than Terry Wogan, who did the TV.
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Or listening to Johnny Moyes's cricket commentaries on the radio while watching the game of the tv screen, tv turned to silent.
-------------------- Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
Eurovision Semi 1
As I’m a bit late with my reviews this year, I will concentrate on those acts that didn’t make it through to the final, so that I can save some surprises for Saturday.
Vienna. City of waltzes, pastry and moody 1980s pop videos. But thanks to the impressive performance of Conchita Wurst last year, it's now been invaded by the annual celebration of kitsch, spectacle and downright weirdness that is the Eurovision Song Contest. And so, in a living room somewhere in West London, my hubby and I sit with glasses of Baileys at the ready, to see what delights the first semi-final has in store for us.
Our hosts Scott Mills and Mel Giedroyc welcome us to the evening, after a warning that it features ‘repetitive flashing images’. That probably sums up quite a few of the acts, we suspect. Anyway, we start off with what looks like an elaborate fizzy drink advert, where famous landmarks are shown drawn in brightly coloured bubbles. Then we’re in the hall, where a huge net of lights twists and turns above the audience. The stage is apparently ‘a portal’ connecting the different countries, which somehow is supposed to reinforce the theme of ‘building bridges’ (no, it wasn’t very clear to me either…) It looks unnervingly like the Eye of Sauron sometimes.
Last year’s winner, Conchita (who’s evidently dropped the Wurst by now), reprises ‘Rise Like A Phoenix’ and calls up the acts performing tonight, who walk through what looks like a crowd of extras from Amadeus. Well, we are in the land of Mozart. Then we meet our hosts Miriam, Alice and Arabella who start the proceedings. The UK can’t vote tonight, so we are free to just relax, have a Baileys or two and enjoy the Euro-craziness.
Which starts with…
Moldova Evidently inspired by George Michael videos, the singer is frisked by some sexy cops in very tight outfits, who even rip off his shirt at one point. I’m sure the Moldovan police force are on the phone right now, complaining about the misrepresentation of their excellent policing methods. There is actually a song happening as well – reminds us rather of Hear’say, and will probably be around for about as long as they were.
Armenia – they qualified, so I’ll review them at the final Belgium – qualified
Netherlands The first thing we notice is that the logos for the countries are that country’s flag in a circle, using the ‘bubbles’ theme from earlier. Which means the Netherlands logo looks like it might get sued by Pepsi any minute. Anyway, let’s concentrate on the singer, a girl in ill-advised black culottes who rips off her black lace veil and storms into a forgettable mid-tempo song. The chorus mostly consists of the word ‘Why’, or as she sings it ‘Why aye aye aye’ which leads us to wonder if she’s actually a Geordie in disguise.
Finland A punk band comprised of people with learning difficulties, who are entering the contest with a stated aim of ‘raising awareness’. Certainly a first at Eurovision, though let’s not forget that Finland gave us Lordi, so clearly they like to push those boundaries. The song is the shortest ever Eurovision entry at 1 minute 40 seconds. Much as I applaud the idea of their inclusion in the contest, the song is really not my thing.
Then we see Conchita in the green room making small talk, while most of Europe has an ad break. And soon we’re back with …
Greece – qualified Estonia – qualified
Fyr Macedonia A male singer in an Inspector Clouseau coat sings in front of a temple. The song is about autumn leaves, which are drifting profusely on the screen behind him. Except they are moving up instead of down. Did someone put the disk in the wrong way up? As for the song, all I can say is it’s a bit flat, though not as flat as the singer. Please make it stop.
Serbia - qualified Hungary - qualified
Belarus An earnest guy belting out ‘Time is like thunder, ha ha!’ Er, OK then. Meanwhile a moody girl shows off her violin skills. It’s all a bit Phantom.
Russia - qualified
Europe has another ad break, and Mel chats with the Australian entry Guy Sebastian. Then it’s back for…
Denmark - qualified
Albania She’s got a glittery cloak, a quavery voice and a rather casual relationship to the correct key. I’m not sure she’s really into her performance. At one point she stretches out her arm for an emotional ‘reaching out’ move, and it turns into a cheeky wave to the camera. What next, mid-song selfies?
Romania - qualified Georgia - qualified
And that’s all tonight’s acts. For what it’s worth, if I’d been voting I would have gone for Belgium, Serbia or Denmark, largely because they were a nice change from the parade of sylph-like women in long dresses and anguished expressions singing moody songs with shouty choruses.
Back to Conchita in the green room, then we get a clip of Mel working in a Vienna cake shop (she evidently can’t stay away from cake) and schmoozing with some of the contestants. After this we get to meet our entry, Electro Velvet, who Mel memorably describes as ‘The Great Gatsby meets Tron’. We have a quick recap of 60 years of Eurovision with Scott, and then a chat with ‘Doctor Eurovision’, before our three hosts attempt to explain why the heck Australia is suddenly eligible to enter (short version: they really, really wanted to). And we’re given a quick preview of the acts who have automatically qualified for the final: the traditional ‘Big 5’ of UK, Spain, Italy, Germany and France (because we put most of the money in), last year’s winner Austria (because it would be a bit embarrassing if the hosts didn’t get through) and, er, Australia, because, oh heck, why not?
Finally the results are in, and the ten qualifiers are
Albania Armenia Russia Romania Hungary Greece Estonia Georgia Serbia Belgium
That’s it for Semi-Final 1. Time to recharge our glasses for Semi-Final 2.
-------------------- *sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gee D: Given that this is Aust's first year in the event, it's amazing just how little attention it's drawing here. Not on the SMH website (or the ABC News one either), no front page on other papers, no sounds of people talking about it on the trains.
Funny you should say that. This afternoon I overheard an Australian colleague explaining enthusiastically how it's really big in Australia and everybody is very into it.
I wouldn't have expected it had made much impact on the national consciousness, but maybe some of the expats over here have caught the Eurovision bug.
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
Semi 2 - my review
And we’re back with the scary Eye of Sauron portal stage. The three hosts are a bit more glam tonight in their sparkly dresses, while Conchita has kept it simple in a black trouser suit which only has one sleeve. Surely the budget could have stretched to two?
More entrants invited on stage, more Mozart dancing, yada yada. The whole crowd are encouraged to yell ‘Good morning Australia’, and then the hosts check the pyrotechnics and the wind machine. Sorry, is this the tech run? But fortunately everything works and we’re straight into…
Lithuania – they qualified, so I’ll review them at the final
Ireland I really want to like Ireland. It’s a wistful 6/8 piano ballad, written and sung by a young teenage girl who also plays the piano. Sadly her voice is rather grating, and the song just sends me back to the Baileys. Sorry Ireland, but at least you didn’t send Jeward this time.
San Marino A sweet teenage duo who look like they’ve come straight from High School Musical. Ominously, the Deathstar appears to be in the sky behind them for some reason. The song features out of tune singing, a sudden switch to a completely different song half way through, and most worryingly, a talky bit. Should be enough to ensure they don’t get through.
Montenegro - qualified
Malta The second entry this year whose song is called ‘Warrior’. She’s not as goth as the previous one, though there is still plenty of black leather in evidence. It’s yet another ballad with the obligatory snoozy verse and strident chorus. Next please.
Conchita in green room. Green is the colour of hope? Envy surely?
Norway - qualified
Portugal A girl in a long blue cloak and black patent trousers, which is an interesting combo to say the least. More strident singing of yet another mid-tempo ballad, but at least she is singing in her own language this time.
Czech Republic Taking inspiration from last year, there’s lush Bond-esque orchestration aplenty. A black clad duo emote to a doomy 6/8 piano ballad. At one point the girl throws off her shoes. Well, it’s been a long evening.
Israel – qualified Latvia - qualified Azerbaijan - qualified
Iceland She’s dressed as a pink fairy, but she should have saved some magic for her singing voice. She belts out a song about letting go – but don’t worry, it’s not THAT one. I think she’s letting go of the tune though.
We take a break for a quick look at Electro Velvet, then back with:
Sweden - qualified
Switzerland Seriously, aren’t we over Twilight by now? A dramatic girl in a blue cloak, which soon comes off to reveal a sparkly white dress. She sings in a stark winter landscape, surrounded inexplicably by men with drums. Like Iceland, she sings about how she’s learned to let it go – evidently another Frozen fan.
Cyprus - qualified Slovenia - qualified Poland - qualified
And that’s all the acts tonight. We vote for Cyprus and Israel – neither of which I have described above, but both of which have endeared themselves to me for entirely different reasons. You’ll have to wait till Saturday to find out exactly why.
After the usual green room bits, interviews and previous, the hosts show a montage of voting gaffes from years gone by, ending with the comment ‘How’s that for Throwback Thursday?’ Indeed. And so to the announcement of the qualifiers, who are:
Lithuania Poland Slovenia Sweden Norway Montenegro Cyprus Azerbaijan Latvia Israel
Time to clear up and prepare for the marathon of Saturday night. Gute nacht, alles.
-------------------- *sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Thank you GillH. Your round up was as witty and concise as ever.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gee D: Given that this is Aust's first year in the event, it's amazing just how little attention it's drawing here. Not on the SMH website (or the ABC News one either), no front page on other papers, no sounds of people talking about it on the trains. Someone has probably done a fair sum of money on it.
What on earth are you talking about? The ABC News website has had Eurovision-related stories all week!
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: quote: Originally posted by Gee D: Given that this is Aust's first year in the event, it's amazing just how little attention it's drawing here. Not on the SMH website (or the ABC News one either), no front page on other papers, no sounds of people talking about it on the trains. Someone has probably done a fair sum of money on it.
What on earth are you talking about? The ABC News website has had Eurovision-related stories all week!
Other broadcasting networks are available (as They say).
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Sioni Sais: Other broadcasting networks are available (as They say).
Um... which rather misses the point that ABC was the one that Gee D specifically cited.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
Eurovision is pretty big in Melbourne, though I think it's only become a thing in the last decade or so. It's been showing here for 30 years, but previously was mainly watched by people who were born in or had parents from the competing countries. I remember my Serbian/Croatian friend (who now supports Serbia) complaining about Ireland always winning in the 1990s.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kittyville
Shipmate
# 16106
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Posted
I'm with Orfeo - I've seen plenty of print and online coverage, including latterly about how much SBS might have had to bung the European Broadcasting Union to get Guy a guernsey.
I'm another one for whom Eurovision isn't really Eurovision without Terry Wogan.
Posts: 291 | From: Sydney | Registered: Dec 2010
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Ready.
The goulash is Hungarian. The Tiramisu is Italian. The wine is Spanish The cheese is French and Dutch. The crackers are British. Shame That Ireland are not in to go with the whiskey.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Snacks on, TV on, coconut water present, whiskey present, antipasto present, oatabix present - eurovision is go !
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
"Act like a woman, and vote !"
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
OMG the Slovenian woman's voice is dreadful !
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
The mime is even worse.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I do prefer my violinists with an instrument
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
"When the blood dries, I pledge to rebuild my village more beautiful than before, but don't forget" not terribly upbeat ...
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
At last, a Euro fun song from Israel. There are pitching problems, but ho cares.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Estonia look good, but not too taken with the sound. Us next
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Kind of fun. But Eurovision?
-------------------- "Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Ooh that was rather fun, we might be in with a shot.
(The subtitles were fun, skiddie-dee-dee-do-wop indeed) [ 23. May 2015, 19:41: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
If he'd avoided the Jungle Book section...
-------------------- "Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Do we think the Armenian's "don't deny" is a dig at the Turks ?
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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