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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Joab and David
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Chief of sinners
Shipmate
# 8794
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Posted
I struggle to understand David's relationship with Joab. Joab killed Abner and Absolam apparently against David's wishes but David never took action against Joab until after his death. Why? Was Joab doing what David wanted but giving David deniability? Was Joab too powerful for david to oppose, if so, why could Solomon who would have been less powerful at the beginning of his reign able to deal with Joab? Did David feel a loyalty to Joab because of all the battles they had been through together?
Why was Joab able to get away with so much?
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If Jesus was half the revolutionary you claim, how come he is now represented by one of the most conservative, status-quo institutions on the planet?
Posts: 155 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Firstly Joab must have been quite old by the time Solomon killed him, he is David's Uncle.
Secondly Joab did David's dirty work for him and knew David very well. Look at how he behaves over the death of Uriah the Hittite.
Thirdly he is by the time David dies the one guy who has been with David his whole life; he was a senior member of David's guerrillas during David's difficulties with Saul.
Fourthly look at the triad of David, Joab and Absalom. Joab initially supports Absalom but is also involved in his death.
Fifthly David authority relied on that of the army and Joab was head of the army. David could not afford to alienate the army. However, Solomon's authority is priestly based and with the ruling classes.
That should give you some idea of the complexity of the relationship. David I suspect led much of his later years in fear of assassination by Joab but balanced against that the fear of a military coup if he did anything to Joab.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Chief of sinners
Shipmate
# 8794
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Posted
Thank you Jengie, it just seems that with everyone else David is fearless but with Joab timid. When Abner was murdered the nation, possibly except Judea, would have turned against David, if they had thought him responsible. Joab was in a weak position but David says he is too violent to oppose. David's dealings with Joab just seem out of character compared to his fearless opposition of everyone else. A cynic may think that David was behind the death of Abner and used Joab for cover.
Also I am thinking about lessons for leadership, is there something we can learn about the need to deal with powerful close to us when they do wrong regardless of the cost, or are we to be like David and put up with things for the sake of stability?
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If Jesus was half the revolutionary you claim, how come he is now represented by one of the most conservative, status-quo institutions on the planet?
Posts: 155 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
The death of Abner was, of course, the OT reading at Morning Prayer today. The three of us present in church sat silent for a few moments, taking in the drama of the story, and then Father said 'It's hard to understand the machinations of ancient kings'............so for me, at least, the jury is still out regarding David's complicity or whatever.........
/slight tangent/
We have a small but fairly regular group of 6-8 people who come to Morning Prayer - not everyone can come every day - and we often end up having discussions about the Scripture readings, usually over coffee and bacon sandwiches (or toast) in our nearby community café.....!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
I have always wondered whether David actually told Solomon to kill Joab. Solomon did so when he was consolidating his power, and it might have been useful to let it be known that he was acting on behalf of his father's dying wishes, even if it was just ensuring that Joab was not around to plot against him.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Joab always strikes me as a Donald Rumsfeld figure in that he professes "loyalty" to his boss but always finds a way to make sure his own interests are served.
[ 01. September 2014, 15:25: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Jengie's right, Joab is a relative (nephew, not uncle), and a damn fine general too, which makes it difficult for David to deal with him. IIRC he seems to get more and more out of control as time goes on, which might be one reason David advises Solomon to quietly take care of him ASAP. At the very end of David's life Joab was involved in Adonijah's rebellion (1 Kings 1-2) which David countered by crowning Solomon and entrusting the punishment of the plotters to him. So Solomon has personal reasons to get rid of Joab too, though the main issue he cites has to do with killing off other commanders.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I agree with Jengie and Lamb Chopped.
If you read between the lines of scripture and think back to the Wars of the Roses and the Tudor period, rulers are very much dependent on the support of their own kin. If their kin turn against them, they are in trouble. Joab is kin. He's a key member of the Bethlehem mafia. David is dependent on his kin group - just as Saul had been dependent on his Benjaminite mob. Joab knew where the bodies were buried, and David was stuck with him.
By the time we get to Solomon, he's not dependent in the same way on the Bethlehem mafia. One of the first things he does, is shake himself free of them. It's a risk but it works.
When we come to Reheboam, though, he doesn't seem to have had a proper network to back him, certainly not one that extended beyond Judah. His young advisers say 'show them who's boss' and it blows up disastrously in his face.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Good stuff. You topped it off there Enoch with the word that explains it all: kin.
When Joab killed Absolom he did the real political right thing. And David knew it. And even Joab was shocked at Uriah's death. These guys INVENTED the Corleone rules.
For me the Godfather Trilogy always has been an echo of David.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chief of sinners
Shipmate
# 8794
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Posted
The Morning Prayer readings continue to follow this story. The more one reads the more one may come to conclude that David was a mafia style leader and the attempts by the biblical writers to clean up his image don't completely succeed.
Has anyone got a good word for him and still explain his tolerance of Joab?
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If Jesus was half the revolutionary you claim, how come he is now represented by one of the most conservative, status-quo institutions on the planet?
Posts: 155 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
If, as Robert Alter suggests, the bit in David's deathbed speech about the Laws of Moses and the Precepts Handed Down That Our People May Dwell In The Land was added by a later redactor, then what remains is the exhortation to "Be a man" and "Do not allow Joab to go down to Sheol with his grey hairs". All of which makes David sound suspiciously like Tony Soprano.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Even if they're original, he still does.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
It all feels almost Shakespearian in its political intrigue. I'd love to see a modern House of Cards-esque retelling.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'm pretty sure one of the Thomas Hardy novels is a thinly disguised retelling of this, but can't recall just which one--Mayor of Casterbridge? Or was that David and Saul?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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