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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Host & Admin Day
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Also, I don't get why the H&A days have to be started without warning.
I get that some people view them as fun. People are different and entitled to that view, but why the need to start them unaaounced?
Would it cause a problem if the day was announced a week in advance. Then we would all have the chance to read about it and decide to keep away or participate.
I suspect there is no reason except "because we can".
More likely is that the H&As also know that if they did announce it they would get a weeks worth of posts complaining about it as well as the complaints during and after, and that quite a few people wouldn't stay around to watch the "festivities".
If your victim isn't around then bullying isn't as much fun.
As part of the in crowd, I received a commemorative bottle of gin with the date and time of commencement a week before.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
As part of the in crowd, I received a commemorative bottle of gin with the date and time of commencement a week before.
Proof of time travel there. You knew before anyone else on Earth.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
What the hell is this "establishment" and "rulers" stuff? What you have here is a bunch of fucking volunteers who don't get paid a cent and have to put up with everybody's crap. And they're pulled from the general population of SoF posters (to which they return when they retire). And in fact, they continue to post as ordinary shipmates whenever they are not carrying out their extra duties at the mo.
There is no THEY in this. That isn't an establishment. That isn't "rulers." That's some of US attempting to have a good time with the rest of US, in spite of the inevitable misunderstandings/blowback from others of US.
Damn those originally selfless volunteers, getting drunk on the terrible power of internet domination and grinding us minions beneath their flaming stiletto heels.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
comet, thanks for your extensive comments. The effort is much appreciated, but you are barking up the wrong tree. If I wanted to critique the Ship's governance, then I would do that. My point here is that H&A day highlights, indeed caricatures, what one could critique about the Ship's governance. It is also needlessly disruptive to the regulars, and generally unattractive to visitors (the rare Ariston excepted).
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
What the hell is this "establishment" and "rulers" stuff? What you have here is a bunch of fucking volunteers who don't get paid a cent and have to put up with everybody's crap. And they're pulled from the general population of SoF posters (to which they return when they retire). And in fact, they continue to post as ordinary shipmates whenever they are not carrying out their extra duties at the mo. ... Damn, it's like trying to make coffee for a churchful of people who all take it a different way.
We are all equal here. It's just that some are more equal than others... If this is indeed a community, then given the absence of its owner-king it is de facto governed by a two-tier oligarchy.
If you want to legitimise this in terms of "people power", then you could try introducing democratic structures. If you think it works just fine, then I guess leave it as it is. But stop pretending that H&A governance is like brewing coffee. It just isn't. The current SoF setup has been called a "benign dictatorship", including by the H&As themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why not make constructive suggestions (I saw a few on this thread) instead of just bitching?
I haven't been bitching.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
One of the points is to honour a former Shipmate called Erin.
I never knew her. She was before my time. I don't think I'm alone. Is it right that a few Shipmates who did know her are able to enforce a tradition that other more recent Shipmates might find nonsensical and offensive?
Without Erin the ship would probably have sunk less than a year after launching. She was the moving force in fighting off Joanne, who tried to close the boards down. In addition, she took care of a lot of the technical computer stuff.
There are threads about her on the Glory board, here, here, here, and here.
Those shipmates who joined after her death owe her a debt whether they know it or not.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Damn those originally selfless volunteers, getting drunk on the terrible power of internet domination and grinding us minions beneath their flaming stiletto heels.
This is one of Marvin's.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
What the hell is this "establishment" and "rulers" stuff? What you have here is a bunch of fucking volunteers who don't get paid a cent and have to put up with everybody's crap. And they're pulled from the general population of SoF posters (to which they return when they retire). And in fact, they continue to post as ordinary shipmates whenever they are not carrying out their extra duties at the mo. ... Damn, it's like trying to make coffee for a churchful of people who all take it a different way.
We are all equal here. It's just that some are more equal than others... If this is indeed a community, then given the absence of its owner-king it is de facto governed by a two-tier oligarchy.
If you want to legitimise this in terms of "people power", then you could try introducing democratic structures. If you think it works just fine, then I guess leave it as it is. But stop pretending that H&A governance is like brewing coffee. It just isn't. The current SoF setup has been called a "benign dictatorship", including by the H&As themselves.
No, it's not an 'oligarchy' because it's not the case that power resides permanently with the same people. In some respects your analysis is correct, but in that crucial respect it is wrong.
Oligarchies involve ties such as wealth or family that ensure the 'in crowd' always remains the same. This is not the case with hosting. I had no ties with any of the existing Hosts when I was invited to become one. People are asked to be Hosts based on their suitability for the job.
I'm not sure what democratic processes you have in mind. Do you want to vote for who the Admins or Hosts are? Have election campaigns? I can predict that everyone would be heartily sick of such a process before long, given how FREQUENT the turnover of Hosts actually is (turnover not being a word terribly consistent with oligarchy), with several changes per year, and that it wouldn't make much difference overall.
If you want direct participation in decision-making, then I'll just point out that that is not 'democracy'.
[ 22. September 2014, 22:22: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Votes in the Styx for whether Shipmates should be planked. No wait, no planking without prior recourse. Therefore, trials with witnesses and consulting council so that the accused can properly defend themselves before being planked. Debates about whether the proper criterion is whether the accused could have, should have, or did know that they were posting like a jerk.
A proper constitutional committee to review whether we want to be governed by the 10 Commandments or not, to be reconvened every 6 months to take account of the views of newcomers who are otherwise forced into servitude to the despotism of those who have come before them.
Proper anonymous voting for proposals for new boards. Votes on the proper procedures for anonymous voting. Who gets to vote? Is campaigning allowed on the day of the vote? Committees formed to settle these questions. Threads in the Styx complaining that the committees are formed of an in-crowd.
Votes for the appointment of Hosts and Admins (or is this like voting for judges: seems like a good application of democracy, but turns out to be a really crap idea?). Recall elections whenever a Host or Admin does something unpopular.
Investigation of whether the idea of having Hosts and Admins at all is too in-crowd and anti-democratic. Constitutional committee to investigate running the Ship as a collective.
H&A Days to be put to a vote prior. Endless threads in the Styx about how "I didn't know an H&A Day vote was coming up." Timing of votes for H&A Days to be put to a vote prior. Endless threads in the Styx about how "I didn't know an H&A Day Vote Timing vote was coming up." Timing of Votes for Timing of Votes for H&A Days to be put to a vote prior. Threads in the Styx...
Ship ceases to need to appeal for financial support, as Simon discovers that the threads in the Styx are running a perpetual motion machine. Day of celebration declared. Threads in the Styx about how the day of celebration interfered with the normal running of the boards. Perpetual motion machine runs amok.
Careful policing of anarchy so it doesn't offend anyone. Creation of Despotic Anarchy board so that those who like Despotic Anarchy can do it whenever they like without bothering anyone else. Accusations that the Despotic Anarchy board is the haven of the most in of in-crowds, and people who might like a spot of anarchy feel intimidated from joining in.
There's so much that could be improved about the Ship.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'll say this for this thread: it's just like the olden cranky days on board, and gives me a warm & fuzzy feeling. Some things never change. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
[ 22. September 2014, 23:16: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Autenrieth Road,
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) That was beautiful.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That... That... Damn, two days of bickering was well worth that post. Thank you, AR.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
comet, thanks for your extensive comments. The effort is much appreciated, but you are barking up the wrong tree. If I wanted to critique the Ship's governance, then I would do that. My point here is that H&A day highlights, indeed caricatures, what one could critique about the Ship's governance.
okay, darling, so if I'm reading you right, what you're saying on this thread is, in effect, "I'm not criticizing ship governance, but if I was..."
which is different how, exactly?
Frankly, I don't give a sheep's fart if you criticize the ship's governance, but then engage in the debate. don't shrivel up and tell me you weren't criticizing.
and then if you do, could you do us all a big fat old favor and hear what has been said to you a bazillion times in answer to your concerns?
oh right, you weren't actually criticizing. just, you know...
(what is it you're doing on this thread, exactly?)
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It is also needlessly disruptive to the regulars, and generally unattractive to visitors (the rare Ariston excepted).
1. needlessly disruptive to regulars. know what else is? the constant need to try and fix shit by starting or joining Styx threads (I'm not actually thinking of this one) about wanting to change all the things. And never hearing the replies, and never being happy with the attempts made to mollify what is in essence one really whiny dissenting voice.
Don't get me wrong, I fucking love that the Styx exists and we're all allowed our place to bitch. because this is a private entity and therefore under no obligation to give a half shit about what we want at all. and don't give me that "customer is always right" horseshit because the majority of us don't pay a red cent for the fun and education we get out of this place. I, for one, probably owe Simon my first born at this point.
you want a more democratic process. in theory, I'm with you. in practice? what a clusterfuck that would be! who gets to vote? how would we get word out to every single fucking member of this place? nevermind the whole "tyranny of the majority" aspect that could saddle simon with a complete power-hungry freak as a community editor. Know a lot of politicians? I do. they tend to be egomaniacal assholes.
most of the people you want in positions of authority are the ones who run screaming from the room when you ask.
2. unattractive to visitors. fucking PROVE IT. 'cause I can come up with 18,000 reasons why you're wrong.
...
IngoB, I actually have a giant throbbing soft spot for you. a good portion of the time when you beat the enotional freaks to death with your vulcan style logic I want to find you and kiss your face. Really. You're one of the favorites. God help me.
Which is why I get absolutely mental when you feel the need to beat your own tired horse over this again and again. Is the ship perfect? fuck, no! but there are worst places on the internet. in my experience so far, all of them. I'm not saying don't chime in, please chime in. but then listen to what has been said. appreciate the accommodations that have been made to let you try out your various theories on how it should be run.
and when people tell you that it ain't perfect, but they're working towards perfection, accept that. it's a bunch of fucking humans, after all.
and H&A Days, everyone? lighten the fuck up. nobody is bleeding or broken. accept it as a necessary evil for having the kind of board you want the rest of the year. you want healthy crops, you have to accept it might rain sometimes.
jaysus, people, it's a website, not a sovereign nation.
and one more thing, to all and sundry: you think H&A Day wasn't as fun as it had been in the past? well, where the fuck were you? join in for fuck's sake.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
comet, dear: that was a bit shout-y for The Styx. Please be heedful of your tone when addressing others; you may fluster the womenfolk.
-RooK
Host-like Stygian Entity
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Comet, why are H&A days a NECESSARY evil for the board we want?
In what way would the ship be different if they didn't happen?
I don't think it would change one iota except you would get the divisiveness that they engender, nor would you have to get all defensive about them afterwards.
The reaction to H&A days seems to be getting more aggressive each time you hold one. Tough. It's the price you pay.
Don't tell us they are necessary because they clearly are not. Don't tell us they are harmless because the reaction you get from them shows they are not.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
I think H&A days are great... Though I'm usually an amused spectator rather than a participant. The asterisks can get a bit annoying but trying to work out what the words are is half the fun (on the Scottish thread, somebody said about votes coming in on a f***ing boat and I read it as flying boat)
Maybe if we had some warning, I could actually think of something entertaining to contribute!
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Funny thing, this. The Styx by its very nature provides a platform for the airing of views about the rules and ethos of this place. That in itself is an aspect of the ethos of unrest.
Having a thin skin and long term membership of this unrestful place are probably incompatible.
Before I was a Host, I used to enjoy the loony arbitrariness of H&A day. It often tickled my sense of humour. It struck me as naughty but not malevolent.
Since I became a Host, it's changed. I try, but I don't do loony all that well. Unlike some of my colleagues. Mostly I still enjoy it, but more as a passenger than participant.
I suppose the difference is that although I take the office of Host seriously and do the best I can, I really don't take myself all that seriously. The place isn't all about me; indeed it's not very much about me at all. It is I suppose about the varieties of "us" to be found here.
Preserving and fostering an ethos of unrest is not as easy as you might think. My gut feel is that two or three loony H&A days do add something to that. I've been influenced by this discussion, but more in the direction of considering whether there are some technical and style modifications to be made to the temporary looniness for the greater good. My gut tells me that's the better way to go.
I'm happy to leave it to Simon and the Admin to evaluate continuing pros and cons, and possible reforms, and participate in that process to whatever extent they see fit. Recognising that I'm about as competent at doing H&A day as I am at doing Hell i.e. not very.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The reaction to H&A days seems to be getting more aggressive each time you hold one. Tough. It's the price you pay.
That's quite amusing, since quite a lot of it is you kicking the cat.
As for the time-honoured post stooshie - it's just that: part of the tradition.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I cross posted with comet and discovered that (personal stuff aside) she said pretty much the same as me but a lot more entertaining!
[Lord, even I get bored sometimes by my gentle diplomatic instincts.]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
What a load of fuss over a few asterisks and 'bugger off'. Come on, folks, it's an internet forum, it's not the UN.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
So the H&A day(s) jolt us out of reading and posting habits, make us rethink our relationship with the Ship (whether we should rely on it so much) and gives us the opportunity to explore different parts of the Ship, and half the posters on this thread seem to think they have been violated by the devilish hosts and admins and as if looking at things differently was a bad thing.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
If it so minor then why bother doing it in the first place? Why not restrict it to the H&As private board if it's such a tiny little thing?
We do have the opportunity to explore other parts of the ship. We have that opportunity to do that every day. You just click on a link. How do H&A days enhance that opportunity?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
If you don't like it, you have the option of staying away, temporarily or permanently.
[ 23. September 2014, 08:52: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Why not restrict it to the H&As private board if it's such a tiny little thing?
Because it is not solely for our benefit. Curiosity Killed, in the post above yours, has already shown some insight into what it's about.
There's a false logic in your statement that correlates size with being public. Whether or not Hosts & Admins Day is 'tiny' has absolutely nothing to do with where it is located. Threads aren't allocated to boards based on their size or importance.
Also, you've focused CK's use of the word 'opportunity'. Perhaps that isn't the correct word but the sentiment is, I think, correct, in that the movement of things into unusual locations does tend to mean that people TAKE UP that opportunity when they normally wouldn't.
[ 23. September 2014, 09:06: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
No, it's not an 'oligarchy' because it's not the case that power resides permanently with the same people.
That's not part of the definition of oligarchy, or indeed of any human form of government. For rather obvious reasons.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oligarchies involve ties such as wealth or family that ensure the 'in crowd' always remains the same. This is not the case with hosting. I had no ties with any of the existing Hosts when I was invited to become one. People are asked to be Hosts based on their suitability for the job.
I agree that it is quite interesting to see simple biological succession taken out of the picture. The Ship's oligarchy perpetuates more along perceived compatibility of ideology and personality. Somebody with a keener interest in politics and people than me would do a better job of tracing the lines of descent though. Perhaps RooK, Son of Erin, would care to comment?
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
okay, darling, so if I'm reading you right, what you're saying on this thread is, in effect, "I'm not criticizing ship governance, but if I was..."
... then I would stage something like H&A day to drive home the point.
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
which is different how, exactly?
It's concerned primarily with H&A day, not with Ship governance.
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Frankly, I don't give a sheep's fart if you criticize the ship's governance, but then engage in the debate. don't shrivel up and tell me you weren't criticising.
If I shrivel up after a few rounds of vigorous activity, it isn't from posting on SoF.
Look, I understand that there is this urgent need to talk about the obviously undemocratic nature of the Ship. But I actually wasn't, other than indirectly by saying that H&A day sure makes it prominent. By design.
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
you want a more democratic process.
I want no more H&A day. I also would appreciate more democracy, sure, and I find the attempts to make it appear impossible hilarious. I should really keep these posts for the next time somebody talks about Church governance... But if you want me to spearhead the democratic revolution, could you please schedule it to not coincide with the start of term?
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
2. unattractive to visitors. fucking PROVE IT. 'cause I can come up with 18,000 reasons why you're wrong.
Sure, let me just quickly analyse the public database of the Ship's comprehensive logging of web traffic. Oh, wait.
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
IngoB, I actually have a giant throbbing soft spot for you.
And I'm really good at rubbing it up and down, and twisting it ever so slightly around...
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
but then listen to what has been said.
Yeah, listening is a much under-appreciated skill. Most people just go on about what they think must have been said.
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
accept it as a necessary evil for having the kind of board you want the rest of the year.
It was not necessary when it was invented. It is not necessary now.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
No, it's not an 'oligarchy' because it's not the case that power resides permanently with the same people.
That's not part of the definition of oligarchy, or indeed of any human form of government. For rather obvious reasons.
Hehe. True. We all die sometime. But both the Wikipedia definition and the nearest dictionary definition both emphasise that in an oligarchy power rests with a few, and it seems to me that a key element of it is that 'the few' are predefined.
I remain of the view that this is not true of the Ship. Or if it is, then you would similarly be arguing that almost every single organisation on the planet is an 'oligarchy' because new position-holders are chosen by those currently in positions. In most employment this involves something called a "job interview".
I hardly find anything terribly shocking about the fact that the Ship operates on similar principles.
Nor can I think of a single example of a message board that I've seen which selects its administrators and moderators in any other fashion.
[ 23. September 2014, 09:15: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
I'm all for H&A days, in fact I think they were one of the main reasons I became somewhat more active as a member and not just lurking. However, I will say that I think the word replacements this time struck a little too low on the fun/disruptive graph. Even after the single letters were put back. I'd change that in the future. My first instinctive reaction to "bugger off", even knowing it was H&A days, was taking it personal, but then I realized what it was about and found it rather hilarious. To conclude, my key criticism would be of some of these features, rather than on the H&A days themselves.
For me, the Ship is about a place where the serious can meet the loony and use that to strenghten the points made. Sure, too much innuendo or whatever personal bits of humour we put in and the serious gets lost, but I think a few days of celebration in which the loony gets rather free reins is a good thing. I've always seen it as a very attractive feature of the Ship, something I look forward to, and something that's inspired me to increased action on the Ship. I think it might draw more people here, not less. Just as I think Ingo's innuendo will draw more intelligent and witty people here, not less, and spark more action from them, not less.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I want no more H&A day. I also would appreciate more democracy, sure, and I find the attempts to make it appear impossible hilarious. I should really keep these posts for the next time somebody talks about Church governance...
The Ship is owned by Simon. As such it is a benign dictatorship.
I suppose you could try setting up a fully democratic discussion website, but I suspect you'd drown in procedural bureaucracy before managing to agree even on the URL.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Nor can I think of a single example of a message board that I've seen which selects its administrators and moderators in any other fashion.
Louis XVI, July 1789, letter to the National Constituent Assembly?
Is there a practical need for changing the governance of this website? Probably not. But there's more to life than pragmatism. Given what this website claims to be, and given the avowed convictions of the majority of people that hang out here, I think complacency with its oligarchic status quo "because it works" is odd, even a bit sad. I do think it would be fun if an ultramontanist traditionalist fought a people's revolution here, just for the sweet fucking irony of it all. But frankly, I really have other things to do at the moment...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Louis XVI, July 1789, letter to the National Constituent Assembly?
I didn't know that was a message board.
The nearest thing I can think of to your proposals is Wikipedia, and I restate my allegation of drowning in bureaucracy.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
Is it time for the annual lent thread yet?
No. We haven't finished Advent yet.
[ 23. September 2014, 10:11: Message edited by: Thyme ]
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Nor can I think of a single example of a message board that I've seen which selects its administrators and moderators in any other fashion.
Louis XVI, July 1789, letter to the National Constituent Assembly?
Sigh.
I specifically said message board for a reason, Ingo. It seems to me that you are far too ready to declare that democracy is the ultimate mode of governance for EVERYTHING while failing to recognise that it is actually used for a very, very small percentage of your life.
Your employment was not determined by democracy. The menu at your local restaurant is not determined by democracy. Prices are not determined by democracy. I would venture to wager that most families are not democracies, in that the children don't get voting rights on most matters. The hymns at church are not determined by democracy. YOUR CHURCH is not a democracy.
You spend your life surrounded by various decisions that were not determined by popular vote or, to be more accurate about what democracy is, were not determined by people elected by popular vote. Every time that you suggest that democracy is somehow the natural order of things, I can think of dozens of counterexamples.
Democracy has developed for a very particular purpose to deal with the highest level of societal decision-making. It is rarely used elsewhere. That you think the Ship is in any sensible way comparable to the entire nation of France shows me you've abandoned your analytical skills for the sake of an ideological complaint that somehow you're not as important on the Ship as you'd like to be.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The nearest thing I can think of to your proposals is Wikipedia, and I restate my allegation of drowning in bureaucracy.
My proposals? Seriously, WTF?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I think complacency with its oligarchic status quo "because it works" is odd, even a bit sad. I do think it would be fun if an ultramontanist traditionalist fought a people's revolution here, just for the sweet fucking irony of it all.
Like orefo said - do you feel the same about the Catholic Church?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
I normally love H&A days, this last one, I wasn't in the mood. I wanted to see what the people here were saying about the Scottish Referendum, without wading through asterisks and stuff.
Spike should have had his birthday on a different day this year. He should also have messaged all of us to see if we were in the mood - I wasn't and so was offended and upset.
Somehow though I managed to bravely struggle through. I looked at other websites (I know, I was surprised too. Some of them were actually quite good) and did other things for approximately 24 hours. I'm recovering from the shock that the people on the internet who facilitate a service I enjoy that I don't pay for (hmm, I have a job now, I could actually sling something into the Organ Fund) fancied doing something different with the Boards for a day or so.
The Ship is back to normal now, I have resumed my briefly fractured existence, and am enjoying my popcorn as I read this thread.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
I looked at other websites (I know, I was surprised too. Some of them were actually quite good)
*pencils luvanddaisies in for a Ship cult programming reinforcement session*
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
You could try a takeover, IngoB, possibly in concert with others who agree with you.
That would consist of persuading Simon to sell to you or another consortium.
You'd pick up the assets, income generating power, and liabilities. Mostly liabilities so far as I can see.
But short of that, I can't see any other way of turning your desire for abolition into reality.
This place can't be turned into a formal co-operative without transfer of formal ownership away from Simon. I may be wrong but since he gets close to bugger-all out of it, my guess is that his primary desire is to preserve the ethos of unrest and the weird traditions of this place; not to safeguard them from evolution or reform, but simply because the longevity of this place says something about its historical and continuing value to participants.
Poor bugger; he's got a duty of care to this unique "odd child" he helped to bring into the world. I think he takes that seriously.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
IngoB: what B62 said.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
That you think the Ship is in any sensible way comparable to the entire nation of France shows me you've abandoned your analytical skills for the sake of an ideological complaint that somehow you're not as important on the Ship as you'd like to be.
Actually, I was mockingly comparing you to Louis XVI. And not because you are a king, but because you appear to think that "it has always been thus" is a valid argument concerning governance.
My importance for this Ship clearly has reached such heights that people feel the need to preemptively defend against what I might possibly suggest. I guess the only higher level of achievement would be if I could spark apologies left, right and centre without saying anything at all.
Now, in the real world I was on the Board of Directors of a major organisation in my research field. And I was a driving force on that Board for turning it from a private into a member organisation, which included changing appointments to that Board of Directors from getting tapped by current directors to elections by all the members. In consequence of which I am no longer on the Board of Directors, as I did not stand for election (though I still serve in a committee). That organisation remains functional today, and in fact is growing strongly.
Can one translate this directly to SoF? Probably not, given the faster churn here and the heterogenous nature of its membership. But please don't lecture me on democratic governance of organisations. Been there, done that - from a position of power.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
This place can't be turned into a formal co-operative without transfer of formal ownership away from Simon.
Well, clearly after H&A day we now have the "making shit up about what IngoB wants" day.
Let us say Natthew is not a host. I as a Shipmate think he would be really great as a host. What can I do about making him a host? Petty much fuck all. Let us say Natthew is a host. I as a Shipmate think he is doing a really bad job. What can I do about stopping him? Slightly more than fuck all, namely I can whinge here.
Is it possible to increase my abilities without having to wrest control of this website from Simon's hands? I sure as heck think so. Not that I actually have thought about how to do that, since I wasn't actually intending to do anything about the governance of this place at the moment. Really. Honestly. Swear to God. Would somebody listen, please?
But I sure expect that one could come up with some decent ideas if one wanted to. And if that very thought is so threatening as to activate the full blown "the Ship is the best of all possible maritime vessels" defence, then that to me is worrisome.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
IngoB: Let us say Natthew is not a host. I as a Shipmate think he would be really great as a host. What can I do about making him a host? Petty much fuck all.
I'm sure if you thought Natthew would make a great host, you could send a PM to the Admins alerting them to this, and this would be taken into account?
(PS You could do the same thing if you really hated Natthew ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) )
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
This place can't be turned into a formal co-operative without transfer of formal ownership away from Simon.
Well, clearly after H&A day we now have the "making shit up about what IngoB wants" day.
I don't know about that, but I'm having a "Getting tired about IngoB going on and on day".
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Not that I actually have thought about how to do that, since I wasn't actually intending to do anything about the governance of this place at the moment. Really. Honestly. Swear to God. Would somebody listen, please?
Since you admit that you aren't intending to provide a constructive contribution here, no.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
This place can't be turned into a formal co-operative without transfer of formal ownership away from Simon.
Well, clearly after H&A day we now have the "making shit up about what IngoB wants" day.
Let us say Natthew is not a host. I as a Shipmate think he would be really great as a host. What can I do about making him a host? Petty much fuck all. Let us say Natthew is a host. I as a Shipmate think he is doing a really bad job. What can I do about stopping him? Slightly more than fuck all, namely I can whinge here.
Is it possible to increase my abilities without having to wrest control of this website from Simon's hands? I sure as heck think so. Not that I actually have thought about how to do that, since I wasn't actually intending to do anything about the governance of this place at the moment. Really. Honestly. Swear to God. Would somebody listen, please?
But I sure expect that one could come up with some decent ideas if one wanted to. And if that very thought is so threatening as to activate the full blown "the Ship is the best of all possible maritime vessels" defence, then that to me is worrisome.
This is very confusing. How’s about this … The Ship carries on as is and if people have feedback on how we’re doing or suggestions for making things better, then they can make them. The Eighth Day is a case in point. What genius came up with that!
Based on the feedback so far, it seems that:
- Most Shipmates like or don’t mind H&A day. Some of them even enjoy it! A lot. Maybe it could be shaken up a bit. On it. (I’m ignoring Deano as his metamorphosis into the defender of the vulnerable doesn’t quite ring true when compared to his posts elsewhere).
- Find ways doing things like of H&A in a way that have less impact to the parts of the Ship that exist below the plimsoll line . On it.
- Improve the notification process for H&A. Particularly for the parts of the Ship that exist below the plimsoll line. On it.
- Never do H&A day again. No chance.
As for your other comments, you might think Natthew would make a wonderful Host. The Crew might agree with you. The Crew might approach Natthew. Natthew might say no as his other personal commitments mean that he doesn’t feel able to take on the role at the moment. Doesn’t change the fact that he’d make a wonderful Host.
Or Natthew becomes a Host. Natthew starts off well and then turns into the Worst Host. Ever. With has the Styx calls to prove it. Hosts have been sacked – just not often.
Should that stop working for you, then please set the Crew down on a well populated, resourced island with Wifi. And decent coffee.
Tubbs
[ 23. September 2014, 12:05: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
Ahem. Please would everyone remember that the Styx isn't Hell and adjust the general level of snark. Thank you.
Tubbs
Styx Host
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Sorry IngoB and Tubbs. That was personal. Please forgive me.
Sioni
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
That you think the Ship is in any sensible way comparable to the entire nation of France shows me you've abandoned your analytical skills for the sake of an ideological complaint that somehow you're not as important on the Ship as you'd like to be.
Actually, I was mockingly comparing you to Louis XVI. And not because you are a king, but because you appear to think that "it has always been thus" is a valid argument concerning governance.
Kindly don't mockingly compare me to anyone.
I don't think that's my argument, at least in terms of the Ship. My argument is that "it's the natural and logical approach for a message board". I think my argument is that democracy is not actually the usual method for privately owned facilities, and that suggesting democracy as if this is a public space is a misconception of what the Ship is.
Message boards are communities in a sense. So is Facebook. That does not mean they are community-owned. The Ship is actually a lot closer to community-owned in that the 'staff' are unpaid volunteers who are drawn from the community, but that still doesn't mean that it's community-owned.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Is it possible to increase my abilities without having to wrest control of this website from Simon's hands? I sure as heck think so.
In point of fact, it would be trivially easy to hold elections for every vacant Host or Admin spot that comes up. We could just invite applications, set up a poll in the Styx and give the job to whoever had the most votes after a predetermined time.
The question is whether that would be the best thing for the Ship, and I believe the answer is "no". Here's why:
There is a specific vision for the Ship as a whole, and Hosts are selected based largely on how well they exemplify that vision, with a specific focus on the purpose of the board they are to be Hosting. If anybody could stand for election and everybody could vote, then that vision would rapidly get lost amid the myriad other visions that members may have about how things should be run. One solution to that would, of course, be to allow the Admins to veto any candidate they feel is unsuitable - but that's not really very far from the system we have now.
Yes, there is an element of "does the face fit" to the current system. But the H&As are a team, and teams fall apart when the individuals that make them up don't work well together. We have to bear that in mind when selecting new Hosts.
Also, you have to remember that the voting population wouldn't be made up only of reasonable posters like yourself. Every troll, crusader, bigot and wind-up-merchant would have just as much right to vote as you, and they'd be voting for the candidate they think would be the most "fun" for them (if, indeed, one of them wasn't a candidate to start with). I don't need to mention any names - just think of some of the characters we've had on this site over the years, and picture them having the power to decide who will be tasked with enforcing the rules they so love to bend and break.
Elections would also mean politics. Campaigning. Individual manifestos. Empty promises. Smears aimed at rival candidates. And above all else, the sickly scent of a popularity contest* where most of the candidates are going to find out that they're just not as widely liked and respected as they thought they were. It's not out of the realms of possibility that personal animosities and/or people leaving the Ship could result - and the losers would certainly have a reason not to respect the new Host quite as much as they should. Would petty Styx calls along the lines of "I'd never have done that if I'd won the election" happen? I think they would. It's a high price to pay to fix something that isn't really broken to begin with.
That's my opinion, anyway.
.
*= and we don't do official** popularity contests among our members. That's why the member rating function is permanently disabled.
**= by which I mean they're emphatically not a part of Ship policy. Obviously some individuals are more popular with the membership than others, but that's inevitable in any group of more than two people.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Can I add to my previous post by pointing out that making the Ship GENUINELY community-owned would involve membership fees.
I don't actually know what the running costs of the Ship are, but if it becomes a community-owned facility, then the community is not just inheriting the powers but the responsibilities. That's how genuine member-owned clubs are run: you become a member by paying your fees.
Yes, there is some scope here for making donations, but they're not compulsory. The Ship is free to Shipmates. Democratic institutions are not.
[ 23. September 2014, 12:22: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Zoey
Broken idealist
# 11152
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Posted
**makes note to self to put something into the Organ Fund next payday** ('cos I like the Ship the way it is and will voluntarily pay to its upkeep in its current form)
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Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.
Posts: 3095 | From: the penultimate stop? | Registered: Mar 2006
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