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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Host & Admin Day
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I want no more H&A day.
Simply responding to that, IngoB. That's not shit I made up, it's what you said. But I suppose I did not spell out the other option clearly enough.
It's change of ownership or change of owner's mind.
You might think about the second option, I guess, if it matters enough to you. Getting H&A on your side to lobby Simon for change is clearly a busted flush.
BTW I'm sure it's his call rather than delegated completely to H&A. Given the tradition's origins, that seems more than likely. If I was on Admin, that's certainly the way I'd play it.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
That you think the Ship is in any sensible way comparable to the entire nation of France shows me you've abandoned your analytical skills for the sake of an ideological complaint that somehow you're not as important on the Ship as you'd like to be.
Actually, I was mockingly comparing you to Louis XVI. And not because you are a king, but because you appear to think that "it has always been thus" is a valid argument concerning governance.
Kindly don't mockingly compare me to anyone.
You know, your own ad hominem was right there. See above, first in the series of quotes. I think it is considerably more insulting than my oblique (and hopefully mildly amusing) reference to a French king being surprised by revolution.
Marvin, I appreciate your honest words that cut through some of the bullshit. A few comments: There's nothing that stops one from adjusting election laws to get rid of most problem cases, e.g., "at least one year on the Ship, at least 500 posts, at least one post within the last year." If you don't trust the people left after such cuts to avoid obvious trolls in majority votes, then you are more cynical than I am. I think an election day would be fun, as it happens: I sure would be interested in hearing a fresh sales pitch or ten about making SoF a better place. But I think we simply do not have the numbers of active posters to get a full-blown representative democracy going. And while you seem to think that political battles and populism would be the main problem, I would fear more boredom and non-participation.
I would imagine more something like a pool of candidates, which gets filled through a steady "democratic" process and depleted by H&As restocking their ranks when needed. Say a thread where people can suggest names and if someone reaches a certain threshold number of "seconded" votes their name goes into the candidate pool for a time.
Barnabas62, I really have difficulty figuring out what you are talking about. I'm supposed to lobby H&As to change Simon's mind about H&A day? I wasn't aware that H&A day was scheduled by Simon's orders. I doubt that it is, but if it was so then I would simply give up. Not because I fear engaging with Simon, but he is rarely around, and this most definitely is not an issue significant enough to hunt him down in real life.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
You're nearly there, IngoB. I'm drawing a pretty obvious implication from the history of this place.
In order to abandon H&A day, I believe it would not only be necessary for H&A to believe it should be done, but for Simon to believe so as well. A good deal of ownership delegation can be assumed. There's a high level of trust between Simon and Admin. But there are limits to that. I would believe that anything in the strange long-term architecture of this place which was put there by Erin's insouciant creativity belongs in the category of "definitely under Simon's personal protection as owner".
You see, I don't think any of us really know for sure why this "odd child" has survived. I said earlier that preserving our characteristic ethos of unrest is not as easy as it looks. Maybe H&A is an important prop of that? Maybe it isn't? I'd rather leave that call to the owner, than second-guess the effect of change.
Ironically, it strikes me as a kind of "Catholic" argument; if you chip away at traditions, in the end what you have is just chippings.
I'm not on Admin, who may not welcome this speculative opinion. But if I were, that's the way I'd play it. Dropping H&A is an issue on which I believe Simon should have the final say, and the veto. Sensible modification is a different matter. I'm sure Admin have a great deal of freedom in that respect.
Trying to be helpful here. Your persistence is admirable, even when you are IMO tilting at a windmill.
[ 23. September 2014, 14:47: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You know, your own ad hominem was right there. See above, first in the series of quotes. I think it is considerably more insulting than my oblique (and hopefully mildly amusing) reference to a French king being surprised by revolution.
If you're claiming that something I said after your attempt at mockery somehow justifies your attempt at mockery, I reject the claim.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
H & A Admin Days seem to be the height of self-indulgence.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
(missed out "day" a couple of times, sorry)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
H & A Admin Days seem to be the height of self-indulgence.
There's an argument that they are self-indulgent, yes. There's also an argument that the people who are indulging spend about 363 days of the year doing a lot of pretty selfless work for other people.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
IngoB: There's nothing that stops one from adjusting election laws to get rid of most problem cases, e.g., "at least one year on the Ship, at least 500 posts, at least one post within the last year."
That worked so well on Wikipedia. No political bickering there ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Marvin, I appreciate your honest words that cut through some of the bullshit.
Thank you.
quote:
A few comments: There's nothing that stops one from adjusting election laws to get rid of most problem cases, e.g., "at least one year on the Ship, at least 500 posts, at least one post within the last year." If you don't trust the people left after such cuts to avoid obvious trolls in majority votes, then you are more cynical than I am.
Unfortunately, it is impossible to restrict voting in a poll to only a certain subset of posters (short of doing it on a restricted-membership board, of course). And even if we did use a restricted-membership board, it would be an insane amount of work to keep the membership list up to date, given that we can only grant access to a restricted board at the individual Shipmate level.
quote:
I think an election day would be fun, as it happens:
Much like a H&A Day, some would love it and some would hate it.
quote:
I sure would be interested in hearing a fresh sales pitch or ten about making SoF a better place.
But that's the thing. It's not about making SoF better in one or more of the ten different ways those people would put forward, it's about making it better in the way Simon has put forward. His site, his vision.
Of course, people are still perfectly free to make any suggestions they like about how to improve the site. That's how we got the private boards, The Circus and The Eighth Day.
quote:
I would imagine more something like a pool of candidates, which gets filled through a steady "democratic" process and depleted by H&As restocking their ranks when needed. Say a thread where people can suggest names and if someone reaches a certain threshold number of "seconded" votes their name goes into the candidate pool for a time.
If the pool was public, it would fall foul of the "popularity contest" problem. Especially if people did the equivalent of "oh, [X] is such a lovely person I can't believe nobody has proposed her", or even worse started arguing against certain nominations.
If it was private, there wouldn't be any practical difference between that and what we do now (i.e. look at the body of suitable posters, pick one we're all happy with and then ask them if they'd be willing to do it).
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There's an argument that they are self-indulgent, yes. There's also an argument that the people who are indulging spend about 363 days of the year doing a lot of pretty selfless work for other people.
Speaking only for myself, but as a long-term poster who's enjoyed some H&A Days, endured others, and enjoyed my time on the Ship enormously thanks to these generous people - this, for me, is really the last word on the subject.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I would imagine more something like a pool of candidates, which gets filled through a steady "democratic" process and depleted by H&As restocking their ranks when needed. Say a thread where people can suggest names and if someone reaches a certain threshold number of "seconded" votes their name goes into the candidate pool for a time.
let's think this through a bit. Have you ever run for office? I have. well, sort of; on the small level. boards of directors and all of that. you need thick skin. even well meant, having people talk publicly and cast votes about you feels personal. if you win, then great: "you like me, you really like me!" but if you don't win? it kind of sucks.
one of the things brought up on this very thread, in the OP even, has been that people don't want to feel insulted or hurt.
and when you have an election, there's bound to be people who don't win. And they may not have anything wrong with them. Let's face it, as has come up on this ship many times - the "in-crowd" dynamic around here is usually based on writing skills. I know some really brilliant writers who's politics are complete suckass bullshit. (hell, I'm related to at least one) but those great writers can win the day because they are the text-based forum equivalent of the pretty girls at school.
then you have the really brilliant mind with lots to offer who maybe can't express themselves in anything less than a Tolstoi-sized post; perhaps they express themselves in a way that often makes people think they are judging, criticizing, or condemning. This person may be exactly the right person for the job, but they manage to piss off a dozen people before breakfast every day. That person will not be elected.
and really? that shit hurts. It makes you want to stay away. because even if it ain't personal, it feels personal.
And here on the ship we decided eons ago that we hate popularity contests. I'm all for this. We've skirted this in the past with various events and it made me decidedly twitchy.
Thing is, I may be a raging bitch but most of you who know me know it comes from a place of love. (well, and annoyance) I don't actually want to see anyone get kicked in the teeth or feel unwelcome.
not here. this place is too special.
In the real world, I feel democracy is a bit of a necessary evil. it's slow, cumbersome, messy, painful, and it fucking works. someone wants to put themselves out there for a beating, have at it. But it will never be me, not on a big level. and if choosing hosts were based on a public discussion of various people's merits and a public vote, I never would have been a host.
you see, deep down, I'm a big fat squawking chicken.
on another note, one thing the H&As have going for them is they have to read fucking everything. the rest of us, thanksbetogawd, do not. because of that, they can get a feel for different posters in a way that we won't, unless we somehow enforce that everybody reads everything, including the boring bits. there are little jewels of posters that are not as loud and brash and noisy as you or I, but have something really valuable to contribute. us loud fuckers drown them out. But the powers that be have to read it all; they notice.
they also have agreed to uphold an agenda not completely their own. So they have to take into account what is the best for the ship. us peons can vote simply based on our mood and our favorites and not what will keep this joint afloat.
Now, all of that being said, I can see a test run, on perhaps 8th Day, of popularly elected hosts, at some point. I will not be taking part, but if it is a contained element and won't actually effect the overall spirit of the ship; maybe there's a place for that.
I want to address the H&A Day kerfluffle, too, but I'll have to wait until my work break. there's only so much slacking I can get away with around here.
PS - Dear Ingo. You are a dirty, dirty boy. Keep it up. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Based on the feedback so far, it seems that:
- Most Shipmates like or don’t mind H&A day. Some of them even enjoy it! A lot. Maybe it could be shaken up a bit. On it. (I’m ignoring Deano as his metamorphosis into the defender of the vulnerable doesn’t quite ring true when compared to his posts elsewhere).
- Find ways doing things like of H&A in a way that have less impact to the parts of the Ship that exist below the plimsoll line . On it.
- Improve the notification process for H&A. Particularly for the parts of the Ship that exist below the plimsoll line. On it.
- Never do H&A day again. No chance.
[/QB]
This is about a concise a summary of what we ( the h/a's ) have been discussing in the last few days as I can think of.
We have been taking in board what people have been saying, really.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
In order to abandon H&A day, I believe it would not only be necessary for H&A to believe it should be done, but for Simon to believe so as well.
Personally, I doubt that Simon gives a rat's ass about whether and when a H&A day is held. Evidence to the contrary would be Simon keenly inquiring or commenting about it. If there is such evidence, then obviously I am not party to it. In fact, I have no idea at all whom Simon talks to in what manner and how often. But if the key answer to all this is "Simon really wants H&A days to happen", then I think we would have heard about that by now.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
But that's the thing. It's not about making SoF better in one or more of the ten different ways those people would put forward, it's about making it better in the way Simon has put forward. His site, his vision.
And this vision is communicated to the H&As by some kind of spiritual osmosis? Or do you have some stone tablets standing somewhere in a corner? Look, I possibly would feel bad about not having the slightest clue what Simon's vision for this place really is these days. But I haven't had Simon's Apocalypse handed to me by PM, email, link or incorporeal messenger. And I just heard Barnabas62 speculating that maybe, probably, perhaps H&A day is dear to Simon's heart. That's a veteran Host talking. He has no clue either, does he now? Is it then just the Admins who share in the vision of Simon, and get his mobile phone number? Are we to consider your Admin words as his, your decisions as true conduit of his vision? And you swear to God that you are not, well, sort of making it up as you go along?
I have been around for a decade, so I have some experiential evidence that Simon actually exists. Including that time when he nearly threw me overboard. But he sure has been pretty ninja grey eminence of the Deist vibe about sharing his vision for this place.
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
That person will not be elected. and really? that shit hurts. It makes you want to stay away. because even if it ain't personal, it feels personal. ... you see, deep down, I'm a big fat squawking chicken.
OK people, I'm slow, but not that slow. This is a Monty Python sketch, right? Right?!
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
What is the question to which "free and fair democratic election of hosts and admins" is the answer? And what the devil does it have to do with Hosts and Admins Day?
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
IngoB: I have been around for a decade, so I have some experiential evidence that Simon actually exists. Including that time when he nearly threw me overboard. But he sure has been pretty ninja grey eminence of the Deist vibe about sharing his vision for this place.
Think of H&A Day as a sacrament instituted the first time by Simon through the alligator in whom he had invested his power, which has been handed over through her ordained sucessors, and through which he still works our salvation. We don't need to understand all of it, parts of it may even seem to be undemocratic or —gasp— immoral to us, but in the end it will all work out to our best.
[ 23. September 2014, 17:33: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
OK people, I'm slow, but not that slow. This is a Monty Python sketch, right? Right?!
I'll never tell.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
IngoB, I'm sure 8th Day was your idea (even if you objected to the name). I don't recall that going to a popular vote and Lo, it came forth, probably the best idea for years.
Keep the innovation flowing man, because you have the imagination coupled with an eye for detail makes for Good Stuff.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Think of H&A Day as a sacrament instituted the first time by Simon through the alligator in whom he had invested his power, which has been handed over through her ordained sucessors, and through which he still works our salvation. We don't need to understand all of it, parts of it may even seem to be undemocratic or —gasp— immoral to us, but in the end it will all work out to our best.
If it turns out that Simon's vision for SoF has been to mould hanky-wringing liberals into a spitting image of the RCC, with conservatives waging guerrilla warfare of enlightened laissez-faire against it, then I for one don't care whether this is a prank or a work of art, evil or good. It would be so unspeakably epic, a breathtaking tour de force in social manipulation, irony so deep that it would form a wormhole right into the Holy of Holies, with God saying "peek-a-boo".
Or it's just a bloody bulletin board and people are just being people.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I liked the year when we had to add various bits to our posts in certain boards, e.g. "between the sheets" and "this is most certainly true." It was a kick watching the posts deconstruct themselves.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Think of H&A Day as a sacrament instituted the first time by Simon through the alligator in whom he had invested his power, which has been handed over through her ordained sucessors, and through which he still works our salvation. We don't need to understand all of it, parts of it may even seem to be undemocratic or —gasp— immoral to us, but in the end it will all work out to our best.
If it turns out that Simon's vision for SoF has been to mould hanky-wringing liberals into a spitting image of the RCC, with conservatives waging guerrilla warfare of enlightened laissez-faire against it, then I for one don't care whether this is a prank or a work of art, evil or good. It would be so unspeakably epic, a breathtaking tour de force in social manipulation, irony so deep that it would form a wormhole right into the Holy of Holies, with God saying "peek-a-boo".
Or it's just a bloody bulletin board and people are just being people.
It would be fantastic if the first bit were true. But the second seems more likely.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
Six pages of this stuff? Incredible. I'd been away and was briefly baffled and irritated while trying to figure out what was going on. Then I saw "Bugger off, Stercus Tauri" at the top of the page and laughed till I farted. Can it be that certain people are taking all this too seriously?
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Six pages of this stuff? Incredible. I'd been away and was briefly baffled and irritated while trying to figure out what was going on. Then I saw "Bugger off, Stercus Tauri" at the top of the page and laughed till I farted. Can it be that certain people are taking all this too seriously?
Put this way, this thread will not last longer than the H&A that caused it. Unless anyone has anything on topic to add, this thread will shortly be closed.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
H & A Admin Days seem to be the height of self-indulgence.
My understanding of host and admin days is that these days are for the community. We are invited to participate in silliness. For fun- not for malice. I would argue this is community building, for all who wish to participate. I see no intent to cause hurt. Part of our strength and weakness is that humour is in part cultural and does not always translate well and sometimes we are already hurting and less able to manage weirdness. But please, if we look through a fun/good natured filter, this place is transformed. The reason we kept getting told not to do counselling is exactly because this is a good place, a good community and it evolves from that goodness. I like that that desire to care keeps recurring and I understand the need to warn of it.
Hosts and admins are part of the community. There is not us and them. There is only us.
To keep this place going, they need to able to make decisions.
So there is a private board, there are hard decisions at times and they take the responsibility for them.
But they are us. At times they invite us to play and at times we may not wish to participate.
But I think we should stop talking about us and them when the them is still us. They are here for the same reasons we are. To remember those who touched our hearts, to interact with our current crew, and to annoy the shit out of RooK.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I think an election day would be fun, as it happens:
Much like a H&A Day, some would love it and some would hate it.
My big problem with it would be that you'd only end up with hosts and admins that really, really want to be hosts and admins - enough to campaign to become them. IMO the worst leaders are those that crave leadership.
I can imagine there have been times where an experienced host has sent a pm to another shipmate saying "hey, have you ever thought about becoming a host - I think you'd make a good one". And then that person mulls it over, then decides whether it's a good idea or not, whether they can properly give the time - after all, this is a voluntary kindness to the rest of us.
I think the type of people who we get as hosts and admins at the moment are invariably the right kind of people to be hosts and admins. That's no fluke, it's because of the way the Ship works at the moment. I'd be much more wary of the calibre of character we'd get with a campaign / voting system.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Based on the feedback so far, it seems that:
- Most Shipmates like or don’t mind H&A day. Some of them even enjoy it! A lot. Maybe it could be shaken up a bit. On it.
How do you know? Why not have a poll on it? Then you will have proper numbers.
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
(I’m ignoring Deano as his metamorphosis into the defender of the vulnerable doesn’t quite ring true when compared to his posts elsewhere).
Well isn't that convenient? You don't have to address the issues then do you?
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Six pages of this stuff? Incredible. I'd been away and was briefly baffled and irritated while trying to figure out what was going on. Then I saw "Bugger off, Stercus Tauri" at the top of the page and laughed till I farted. Can it be that certain people are taking all this too seriously?
Put this way, this thread will not last longer than the H&A that caused it. Unless anyone has anything on topic to add, this thread will shortly be closed.
Tubbs
Oh, so you don't want to debate anything then? Just close it when it becomes bothersome to you. Way to defend the impartiality of the H&As there.
It seems the day is fun but the debate afterwards, not so much.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Well, that will teach me to try to be helpful. Suffice to day that on the basis of what I know, some of which is bound by Host Board confidentiality, my opinion re consultation is not based on zero information. I don't need to confirm that opinion. I'm happy with the Admin response here. And I know my place.
IngoB, you're the one who wants to abolish H&A day. Admin don't. Tubbs has told you that. If you want to pursue it further you can take it up with the owner and find out whether he gives a rats ass about the continuation of one of Erin's contributions to the ethos of this place. Particularly since the present Admin want to. Knock yourself out.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I think the subject has been pretty well debated in six pages. Some people have said similar things to what you have said, deano, so even if Admins have trouble taking what you say seriously because of past run-ins, you are not alone in your views and as hosts of the Styx they will have read all the posts on this thread.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
IngoB: If it turns out that Simon's vision for SoF has been to mould hanky-wringing liberals into a spitting image of the RCC, with conservatives waging guerrilla warfare of enlightened laissez-faire against it, then I for one don't care whether this is a prank or a work of art, evil or good.
Yes it's kind of cool, isn't it?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Based on the feedback so far, it seems that:
- Most Shipmates like or don’t mind H&A day. Some of them even enjoy it! A lot. Maybe it could be shaken up a bit. On it.
How do you know? Why not have a poll on it? Then you will have proper numbers.
What makes a poll more proper than just reading all the comments on this thread?
And it's already been pointed out, here on this thread, the considerable problems involved in running an election and collating votes properly and not getting into enormous arguments about whether some voters were disenfranchised. Any kind of referendum runs into the exact same problem.
People are able to express their opinion on the subject here on this thread. They have been doing so. The Admins know what people think because the Admins have been required to read every single post on this thread.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
As part of the in crowd, I received a commemorative bottle of gin with the date and time of commencement a week before.
Doesn't longevity and number of posts count for anything? Where's my Bombay Sapphire?
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Also, I don't get why the H&A days have to be started without warning.
"But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36, NRSV)
Alongside other interpretations of H&A days - a demonstration of true arbitrariness, an irruption of pagan misrule - I offer mine: an example of the disruptive power of the kingdom of God. Parables about it point to the suddenly changed nature of the established order. H&A days are a foretaste of the WTF to come.
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
As part of the in crowd, I received a commemorative bottle of gin with the date and time of commencement a week before.
If you were really part of the in crowd, you'd have spelled "gin" in all caps. Wannabe.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
This is a Monty Python sketch, right? Right?!
And, just like that, I'm imagining all these posts being read out by John Cleese, and waiting for my 5 minutes to be up.
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
It seems the day is fun but the debate afterwards, not so much.
-shrug- I personally couldn't be bothered with H&A Day(s) this time (possibly because I regularly abuse my power anyway), but am savouring the delicious sweat and tears of the aftermath.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The Admins know what people think because the Admins have been required to read every single post on this thread.
Also: mind-reading powers. It's a setting in the Control Panel, probably a leftover from Erin's time in the CIA.
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
and to annoy the shit out of RooK.
A nobler sentiment has never been uttered. Pardon me while I adjust your profile to reward you.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Curly:
The Writers Block thread still AWOL in Heaven
Is there something newer than the "Writer's Bleak" locked on page 2 of Heaven? Or are you asking for that to be unlocked? Can I interest you in a shiny new thread, with no money down and cheap financing?
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Also: mind-reading powers. It's a setting in the Control Panel, probably a leftover from Erin's time in the CIA.
Although the mind control setting to turn everyone into obedient sheep who never question anything has always been a bit flakey.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Curly:
The Writers Block thread still AWOL in Heaven
mr curly
That thread has been shuffling along for a year and a half now. It's worn a groove in the carpet. NaNoWriMo dawns. Perhaps, as Rook suggests, a new - and perhaps more topic/discussion-oriented thread?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Curly:
The Writers Block thread still AWOL in Heaven
mr curly
That thread has been shuffling along for a year and a half now. It's worn a groove in the carpet. NaNoWriMo dawns. Perhaps, as Rook suggests, a new - and perhaps more topic/discussion-oriented thread?
I can't say that I noticed exactly when the thread title was changed nor at what time in the last week but to me and Mr Curly, the timing appears to coincide with H&A day and the usual hostly announcement was missing making one assume it was H&A frivolity, It'd be nice if there was a distinction between the hilarity of H&A day and earnest hostly wisdom for us shipmates, just so we don't waste hostly time here discussing it.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
and to annoy the shit out of RooK.
A nobler sentiment has never been uttered. Pardon me while I adjust your profile to reward you.
First, that is definitely worth an organ fund contribution. (done).
May I please have my avatar back when you have finished wiping with it. I don't recognise myself.
I would be very happy to keep your addition to my title but am happy to lose the iron wannabe at some point in the future if you like.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
It'd be nice if there was a distinction between the hilarity of H&A day and earnest hostly wisdom for us shipmates, just so we don't waste hostly time here discussing it.
Answering questions is what we're here for. It's what The Styx is here for. (PM is also available).
It is true a small bunch of long-running Heaven threads were closed at once on H&A day - as a mild instance of its function of disconcerting expectation. Some were reopened by the Hosts. A new Dr Who was started - which is fine: a refresh for the new Doctor not a bad thing.
But others - you do wonder: is this not rather tired? Will it actually be missed? Who cares? And if anyone does, the Whovian option is there - if there are indeed fresh and engaging aspects of the topic to discuss.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
That damn RooK-Annoyer even went and opened up a new TICTH thread when I closed the old one. And that's a thread that traditionally has been Hosts' prerogative!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It takes a brave person to risk the wrath of the Hellhosts by opening a TICTH thread. Or, one in tune with the mood of the board to realise it's the right time. Still probably brave to open it though.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It takes a brave person to risk the wrath of the Hellhosts by opening a TICTH thread. Or, one in tune with the mood of the board to realise it's the right time. Still probably brave to open it though.
Hellions could be forgiven for thinking the only reason hosts allow it to continue is because we get wonderful opportunities to slap people for creating tangents.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I wondered about the closed threads early on. However, I was also aware that threads that took too much flack during H & A days in the past have quickly gone to Oblivion. Shutting a thread very early on is one way of reducing the likelihood of it becoming too damaged. So I saw a sort of reason in that caprice.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Although that reason is not valid, (is it?) if the threads remain closed. plus that wasn't the reason Firenze gave for the thread closures.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
After a week of staying away due to H&A day and aftermath I feel that I might feel a little better to get a few things off my chest.
I find that on SoF it is incredibly difficult to feel a part of the community. I don't feel that I am more than a bystander on the fringe after nine years and frequently go back into lurker mode for weeks or months when it all gets a bit too cliquey. H&A days don't do anything to help me as a seasoned newbie feel as if I know what the hell is going on here. Is there any chance that even if H&A days are announced on a whim, that the effects are not made permanent? Then at least I could leave you all to it and come back when the threads started to make sense again.
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I wonder what leads people to feel part of the community or not (assuming one wants to feel part of a community, as opposed to other ways of thinking about the Ship). You and I have been members for approximately the same amount of time. I don't feel like I'm part of an in-crowd, yet I feel like I understand the Ship for the most part, and draw from it more or less what seems reasonable to me to expect in my interactions with the Ship. And H&A Days make sense to me (and I enjoy them, and at the same time as sometimes participating, I also feel able to continue serious discussions throughout the asterisking etc.). So I wonder what is different between the two of us that lead each of us to experience our nine years on the Ship so differently?
[ 26. September 2014, 23:01: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Although for the most part I agree with what you say, AR, every time we have the "clique" discussion and people come in to insist that there is no "in Crowd" or no cliques, I kind of shake my head. (no that you did that, AR, but I am just waiting for it. Like we are some sociological miracle-- this large a group of regular posters, and no cliquiness. All it needs to make a clique is three humans in a group, but not us, by God!)
So, yeah, I think it is good to check ourselves (whether host, admin or shipmate) and guard against cliquiness, insomuch as we can.I don't think there is any way to make rules against it, because that would be telling human beings not to be human.
Bob, I read your post in interest, because as rarely as you show up, somewhere along the line I have picked up the idea that your posts are worth reading. As we fly by in conversation, I might not think to articulate that. As I cruise the boards, I probably miss really worthwhile things people are saying all the time.
As I said I shake my head at the idea of an impossibly clique free community, but at the same time, just because there is a perceived lack of response to someone doesn't mean that someone isn't making an impact.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
I find that on SoF it is incredibly difficult to feel a part of the community. I don't feel that I am more than a bystander on the fringe after nine years and frequently go back into lurker mode for weeks or months when it all gets a bit too cliquey.
I looked at your post count and was shocked it was so low. Your presence feels much stronger than the number of posts. Engagement is not unilateral and is odd and hard to gauge. In my eyes, you are one of the regulars. Must be by content.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
.... just because there is a perceived lack of response to someone doesn't mean that someone isn't making an impact.
Absolutely!
I know someone who has made about 10 posts in all their time on the Ship, but they read it all as evidenced by the things they chat about on the phone!
Stalker? Not at all, a friend - just a quite private person who enjoys the Ship but doesn't want to share their thoughts with the world.
I doubt if they feel 'part of the community' but they clearly don't need to.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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