|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: sex before marriage
|
The Lady of the Lake
Shipmate
# 4347
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Auntie Doris:
Perhaps LaHaye should get over himself and recommend a visit to Ann Summers instead of a doctor 'helping out'.
You know, I once worked for a v. conservative pro-family values Christian organisation, and my boss there told me he needed me to go to Ann Summers on a factfinding mission. However in the next sentence he panicked and told me not to go there as there might be demons lurking inside...
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
--------------------
If I had a coat, I would get it.
Posts: 1272 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Josh Harris has a lot to be responsible for as well.
THoughts?
Josh Harris needs to get laid.
In anticipation of protests: I don't mean to cast aspersions on everyone who decides to wait till marriage to have sex. But when someone has published as much drivel as Harris has, all I can think is that his books say a lot more about his issues than about anything God would really want for us. Thus -- he needs to get laid.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
|
Posted
I thought Josh did get married and then wrote another book about how he might have been a bit wrong before?
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Lady of the Lake
Shipmate
# 4347
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Thus -- he needs to get laid.
That 'advice' won't sort out anybody's issues with sex. Counselling might, as might a touch of humour on all sides of the argument... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
If I had a coat, I would get it.
Posts: 1272 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
I thought Josh did get married and then wrote another book about how he might have been a bit wrong before?
Looking at his website he got married sometime around 2001/2002 (it's not too clear) and wrote a book about the courtship experience. He's updated I Kissed Dating Goodbye to include responses to some of the criticism he's had. It sounds like he hasn't changed his basic position though.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
[b]Thus -- he needs to get laid.
That 'advice' won't sort out anybody's issues with sex.
Honestly, I think for some people it would.
quote:
Counselling might, as might a touch of humour on all sides of the argument...
Yes, but I wouldn't guess based on I Kissed Dating Goodbye that Josh Harris has a well developed sense of humor.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Lady of the Lake
Shipmate
# 4347
|
Posted
My point was that any advice offered re: such a viewpoint could benefit from a dash of humour.
--------------------
If I had a coat, I would get it.
Posts: 1272 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Thus -- he needs to get laid.
That 'advice' won't sort out anybody's issues with sex.
I bet it would, quite a lot of people.
quote:
Counselling might
Nope. The first sounds greatly preferable.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caz...
Shipmate
# 3026
|
Posted
There's a comedy sketch somewhere about a randy vicar.... "ooooh, come here, I'll give you a real good counselling"... any takers?
No?
Just me?
Sigh.
--------------------
"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard
Posts: 1888 | From: here to there | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
|
Posted
On Ordination these days one receives commercial cards.
Companies wishing you good luck with your future ministry, and please try or recommend our services.
This year I got them from Christian Dating Website and even better one from A Christian Sex Toy website for married couples.
[ 15. August 2006, 09:14: Message edited by: Edward::Green ]
--------------------
blog//twitter//
linkedin
Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward::Green:
On Ordination these days one receives commercial cards.
Companies wishing you good luck with your future ministry, and please try or recommend our services.
This year I got them from Christian Dating Website and even better one from A Christian Sex Toy website for married couples.
Sorry, I dip in the old nags derby from time to time and have just noted this post. Now my mind is a very dangerous thing but I can't help but wonder...
How does the Sex Toy Website know their customers are married?
(I'm assuming they don't want to sell to unmarried couples??????!!!!!)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
AFZ
--------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward::Green:
Companies wishing you good luck with your future ministry, and please try or recommend our services.
I'm trying to imagine how one might work a plug for 'Christian Sex Toys' into a sermon.
--------------------
insert amusing sig. here
Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward::Green:
This year I got them from Christian Dating Website and even better one from A Christian Sex Toy website for married couples.
Ah yes. Would this be the one who had a double-paged spread in Jezebel's Trumpet lately? I was all agog with expectation of Our Lady of Lourdes butt-plugs and such-like, but it was all remarkably tame - principally massage oils and 'sensual' fragrances, as I recall.
They specifically disavowed anything anal on the grounds that 'our bodies don't work that way' ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
mmmerangue
Apprentice
# 12355
|
Posted
No Sex before marriage used to be a very important part of society - I think now however it is outdated. I dont quite know when it got outdated... and I dont really care. I like sex, its good excercise it feels great and it helps you bond with people.
Will i sound like a slut if i say Ive slept with 8 people? will that opinion depend on how old i am, wether i was married to them, wether i loved them or was close to them?
Well on the first point Im 18. Fairly young perhaps, and not of course i wasnt married to them, but they were all people who i knew, trusted and loved. I lost my virginity to someone who i DID think i was going to marry... we dated for 2 and a half years (with a little pause in the middle) and im still friends with him, so who knows i may still marry him! Sex is an important experience and it should not be taken lightly, but that doesnt mean one cant have a little fun! I have had one night stands, but they were with friends not strangers, people who i trust and feel close to and am attracted to.
I think that sex is a way to strengthen relationships and so long as you are aware of your partners sexual history and do not go about it in a self-destructive way ( eg. regualry waking up not knowing who youve been to bed with) then the only limit on your number of partners should be what you feel comfortable with.
Plus, sex is an important part of relationships and may i suggest to the really opposed people out there who have yet to consummate - wait till your engaged, fine, but dont fall into a marriage where you dont know anything about such an important aspect of your partnership. talk about it, play with the idea, experience other things even if you cant bring yourself to do full on sex.
And if i go to hell for this (or any of my other highly ungodly veiws)... well, so does everyone else so doesnt bother me! ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
[Duplicated post deleted]
[ 13. February 2007, 22:25: Message edited by: TonyK ]
--------------------
...I have Sqandered my Existance for a pocketful of Mumbles- such are Promises, all Lies in Jest, till a Man Hears what he Wants to Hear and Disregards the rest...
Posts: 7 | From: Coldstream, Scotland | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
|
Posted
From what I have seen have that number of sexual partners at your age is a quick way to a messed up life.
--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Not Too Bad
Shipmate
# 8770
|
Posted
Not sure I agree Nightlamp. 8 sexual partners at the age of 18 is quite measured these days and mmmerangue seems to have considered her stance on it fairly well.
The trouble is mmmerangue taking the attitude that sex is fun and just another way of passing the time with great people, in my mind devalues sex very subtly. If you were to abstain or wait to have sex surely the anticipation would be all the greater and better?
--------------------
Suppose we have only dreamed and made up these things like sun, sky, stars, and moon, and Aslan himself. In that case, it seems to me that the made-up things are a good deal better than the real ones
Posts: 779 | From: Norfolk | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
|
Posted
Well, it's an appropriate day to talk about this!
I can only speak for me, but I didn't get within snogging distance of a guy until I was 25. The kiss was so good, I married him! And we waited - ie nothing beyond hugs and kisses, although some of those kisses were pretty passionate! - until marriage. And you know what? Twelve years later, I'm still glad we did. He's the best lover I've ever had or (hopefully) ever will have - because he's the only one. And after 12 years, I can still get him frisky just by getting undressed.
Not having a go at anyone else - just my 2p.
--------------------
*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
da_musicman
Shipmate
# 1018
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Not Too Bad:
Not sure I agree Nightlamp. 8 sexual partners at the age of 18 is quite measured these days and mmmerangue seems to have considered her stance on it fairly well.
I disagree with Nightlamp it is surefire way to mess up life but I also disagree with your analysis that 8 sexual partners by 18 is measured these days. Even the friskiest of people I know at Uni would have trouble meeting that figure so early in life. I'm making no judement call either way on whether its good or bad just fulling in what I know from my experience.
Posts: 3202 | From: The Dreaming | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
da_musicman
Shipmate
# 1018
|
Posted
In fact this site durex gives averages for most places round the world.I'm amazed China is so High compared to everyone else.
Posts: 3202 | From: The Dreaming | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by da_musicman:
In fact this site durex gives averages for most places round the world.I'm amazed China is so High compared to everyone else.
This line should give a clue as to how reliable those statistics are:
quote:
Men have had more sexual partners than women - 12.4 compared to 7.2
Assuming they aren't talking about homosexuality that can't be true.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Perhaps they're only looking at people who have sex at all. If you do that, you can come up with a skewed ratio like that. If you add in all the "zeros" then of course the numbers have to be the same proportion as the population.
Of course in a population with 5 men and 7 women, if everybody screwed everybody, then the ratio would be 5:7. And there are more women than men, particularly at higher ages.
{spullung}
[ 14. February 2007, 15:05: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
(sorry, just referring to heterosexuals in my example)
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
the_raptor
Shipmate
# 10533
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Men have had more sexual partners than women - 12.4 compared to 7.2
Assuming they aren't talking about homosexuality that can't be true.
What MT said. There are women (the promiscuous and prostitutes) who are "servicing" large numbers of men. This is caused by the societal expectation that most women will remain (relatively) chaste, while men screw the few non-chaste.
--------------------
Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly
Posts: 3921 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
There are women (the promiscuous and prostitutes) who are "servicing" large numbers of men.
That would screw the numbers the other way. A much more likely explanation is that either large numbers of people are missing from the samples, or thatmen and women are consistently misreporting in different directions.
I suspect both. Its hard to imagine that consistent statistical protocols are being used in all those surveys in all those different countries. (most of them are probably just newspaper problem pages anyway) And most people probably lie about sex anyway.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
|
Posted
and quote:
More than a quarter (27%) have had only one partner while 21% have had sex with more than 10 people
But it comes back to the Murphy's Law commentary on the Kinsey report "Everyone lies about sex."
I have a vague recollection of recent stats that showed this clearly. The same teens were surveyed; three years later there were more "virgins" than earlier. We can't tell when truth was told and when lies; but we can say that the two surveys together show that there is lying going on.
--------------------
"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Not Too Bad
Shipmate
# 8770
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by da_musicman:
quote:
Originally posted by Not Too Bad:
Not sure I agree Nightlamp. 8 sexual partners at the age of 18 is quite measured these days and mmmerangue seems to have considered her stance on it fairly well.
I disagree with Nightlamp it is surefire way to mess up life but I also disagree with your analysis that 8 sexual partners by 18 is measured these days. Even the friskiest of people I know at Uni would have trouble meeting that figure so early in life. I'm making no judement call either way on whether its good or bad just fulling in what I know from my experience.
I have a feeling you are disagreeing with me Musicman.
Not sure which young people you mean: peer group, church group or average uni students? I'm a youth worker in a non church and a church setting. For non church young people, 8 sexual partners by 18 1/2 would be a high average. For church young people the average number of partners will be 0-5 depending on how truthful they are (and if they've gone to uni, they tend to tell you less). The young people I work with tend to be sexually active at a young age with multiple partners so for them at the age of 18 1/2, 8 partners would be a very low number.
--------------------
Suppose we have only dreamed and made up these things like sun, sky, stars, and moon, and Aslan himself. In that case, it seems to me that the made-up things are a good deal better than the real ones
Posts: 779 | From: Norfolk | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Not Too Bad:
For church young people the average number of partners will be 0-5 depending on how truthful they are (and if they've gone to uni, they tend to tell you less).
Why do you assume that honesty raises the figure? When I was that age, I certainly recall people exaggerating both sexual activity and drug use whenever some person with a survey showed up. Bravado is a powerful motivation.
--------------------
insert amusing sig. here
Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Not Too Bad
Shipmate
# 8770
|
Posted
I would have thought that a church young person talking to a church member about their sexual activity would always claim lower than the truth?
--------------------
Suppose we have only dreamed and made up these things like sun, sky, stars, and moon, and Aslan himself. In that case, it seems to me that the made-up things are a good deal better than the real ones
Posts: 779 | From: Norfolk | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
|
Posted
Aha, we clearly go to different churches.
--------------------
insert amusing sig. here
Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mmmerangue
Apprentice
# 12355
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by da_musicman:
In fact this site durex gives averages for most places round the world.I'm amazed China is so High compared to everyone else.
Maybe the chinese are just more honest although it surprises me too!
I think saying i'm messing up my life is a bit extreme, i always play it safe and am using both the contraceptive pill and condoms during absolutely all of my sexual encounters. I'm comfortable with what I do and I enjoy it, as i'm sure Night and musicman are comfortable with their lives ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
and I respect Gill very much also ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) a lot of willpower would have to be exerted for me to try that...
--------------------
...I have Sqandered my Existance for a pocketful of Mumbles- such are Promises, all Lies in Jest, till a Man Hears what he Wants to Hear and Disregards the rest...
Posts: 7 | From: Coldstream, Scotland | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mmmerangue:
may i suggest to the really opposed people out there who have yet to consummate - wait till your engaged, fine, but dont fall into a marriage where you dont know anything about such an important aspect of your partnership.
I'd like to challenge that. It's something that a lot of my friends said to me before I was married ("You wouldn't buy a glove without trying it on, now, would you?") and I'm sure they meant it as well-intentioned practical advice, but I don't think they had really thought it through.
The first time is unlikely to be notable for technical proficiency. But it might still be good. Or it might be bad. It doesn't tell you much about your future prospects, as far as I can tell. Some couples take a while to sort things out, then have a fantastic sex life; others start off OK, and continue OK, or lose interest. And also as far as I can tell, that's the same whether your first time is your wedding night or not.
So what were my friends really advising me to do? Try sex out, but then what? Suppose it had been crap, the first time - would any of then have nodded approvingly if I'd dumped my girlfriend of 6+1/2 years because she was no good in bed? Or would they not universally have concluded that to do so would be the act of a colossal arsehole?
It seems to me that the 'try before you buy' approach is a mass of fallacies. The first trial doesn't tell you much anyway - you can't reliable test drive a car until you have learned where the controls are, and that takes a bit of practice. And if you already have a serious relationship that's moving towards marriage, if you are actually in love with your partner and want to be with them forever, then dumping them because the sex starts out bad is truly appalling behaviour. Much better to look for ways to get it right (and postponing the marriage until they improve to the point of being able to satisfy you is not one I would advise as the basis of a long-term relationship).
Marriage is a risk. It is a commitment to be with someone which you make before you have fully tried them out. That's what makes it romantic. And sex can be an aid to making it work - not by giving you some assurance of future satisfaction, but by giving your partner a promise of intimacy. Sex, when reserved for marriage, say "this is something special that I have only done with you, will only do with you, and want to do only with you". That is what made my wedding night wonderful - we had to have a first time at some point, and that first time was never going to be a virtuoso performance, but neither off us felt that the other was checking off boxes on a mental clipboard to see whether we were 'compatible' enough to marry. We knew that we had a lot to learn, but also that we were committing ourselves to having a lot of time to learn it in.
No regrets.
--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
|
Posted
Ditto. I had problems early on in my marriage because I suffered from vaginismus (the muscles contract and sex is painful). This was because of bad treatment by a doctor a few months before (long story...)
If we had slept together before getting married, it would have probably been a dreadful experience, because of this problem. So we might have concluded we were incompatible and broken up, or perhaps I'd have gone into marriage dreading sex.
But because we didn't discover the problems until we'd got married, we had a secure foundation on which to build intimacy in other ways, while sorting the problem out. It was a lot easier dealing with things with someone who had stood up and announced to the whole world that he loved me unreservedly and forever with all my problems and faults, no matter what storms might come. That gave me the freedom to know that he wouldn't leave me or seek sex elsewhere.
We didn't achieve full, painless penetration for at least a year. But that year was full of touch, of kisses, of romantic evenings and sexy encounters where we discovered all sorts of other ways to 'have sex'. Would we have stuck it out (ahem ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ) that long if we weren't married? I don't know.
In my experience, 'compatibility' is something you build together over the years, not something which you discover in a night. I can tell you that the 12th year of our marriage is a million times more sexy than the first year. Oh, and celebrating my 40th birthday appears to have had an amazing effect too! Where did those inhibitions go? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
There's absolutely no harm in waiting till marriage, provided you don't go in there expecting the first night to be Hollywood Love-Scene, or with a lot of hang-ups about sex being 'wrong'. I never had those hang-ups. I knew sex wasn't wrong or dirty - any more than opening your presents before Christmas Day is wrong or dirty. But it makes Christmas Day a lot more fun if you leave your presents alone till then! (Of course you can shake them and feel them ... hmmm, let's not take this analogy too far, shall we? )
--------------------
*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
|
Posted
Excellent post Gill
Thank you for being so honest also, I think that's very helpful.
AFZ
P.S. Can I take the analogy too far.... please!!!!
--------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
It seems to me that the 'try before you buy' approach is a mass of fallacies.
Spot on.
A 'test drive' assumes you are trying out the same thing you hope to have. However, since marriage is a permanent covenant between two people, how can you temporarily test drive permanence? It's a bit like test driving a toaster to see what driving a car feels like!
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
It's a bit like test driving a toaster to see what driving a car feels like!
An odd analogy! Perhaps say rather it is like using a pop-up toaster in order to find out what a proper coal fire in the hearth is like?
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Louise
Shipmate
# 30
|
Posted
*bumps thread up the board*
[ 15. April 2008, 16:44: Message edited by: Louise ]
--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Louise
Shipmate
# 30
|
Posted
Moved by host from 'any wrong sex acts' thread
Posted by Leo
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
If two people are "committed to each other," then why not have the guts to put their money where their mouth is and marry?
And if they don't have the courage to put their commitment in writing, are they really committed? And if so, to what?
If you seek to join a religious order, you commit to one year, then to about 2 years as a novice and so on before taking full vows.
Analogously, it might be a good idea if people committed to a relationship in similar stages.
Maybe there would be less divorce.
end of Leo's post
--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
|
Posted
Also on the Wrong Sex Acts thread, I had mentioned the tricky situation of me and hubby living together before marriage (with all that entails) and explained about autistic spectrum challenges re sex and why otherwise there wouldn’t have been a marriage.
Meantime, Bullfrog panicked in case I was flirting with him (poor man, I think both of us would have been very confused if I had been...), and we later ended up wondering whether there is an Exception to the no-sex-before-marriage rule if there are disability-related circumstances, or whether it’s always a Jolly Bad Thing and Setting a Bad Example.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
I was glad we waited, too, though it was damned hard. I think I'd worry if it WASN'T hard, though.
Damn those double entendres.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I was glad we waited, too, though it was damned hard. I think I'd worry if it WASN'T hard, though.
Damn those double entendres.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by amber.:
Meantime, Bullfrog panicked in case I was flirting with him (poor man, I think both of us would have been very confused if I had been...)
You call that panic? I was just trying to figure out what the heck it was you were talking about! Trust me, I'll be sure to let you know if I ever really start panicking. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) quote:
and we later ended up wondering whether there is an Exception to the no-sex-before-marriage rule if there are disability-related circumstances, or whether it’s always a Jolly Bad Thing and Setting a Bad Example.
Personally, I'm pretty sure there are exceptions. Someone posted one above involving trying to protect someone in Nazi Germany. I think the question would be whether the existence of exceptions utterly breaks the rule. If some people are allowed to have sex before marriage due to particular circumstances, does that make the whole no-premarital-sex thing meaningless? quote:
Originally Posted by leo:
Analogously, it might be a good idea if people committed to a relationship in similar stages.
Yeah. I think some would call that dating. The question seems to be at what stage one ought to engage in full sexual intimacy.
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lola
Ship's kink
# 627
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Excellent post Gill
Thank you for being so honest also, I think that's very helpful.
AFZ
P.S. Can I take the analogy too far.... please!!!!
If you really want to take the analogy too far in my house you are not allowed to touch the presents before Christmas Day but you are allowed to blow the presents (to make the labels lift up so you can see if its for you, of course!)
Posts: 951 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
|
Posted
Oh good, bullfrog. I'm glad you weren't panicking. I was! I thought "oh my, what've I said to the poor chap...!"
I'm not so sure now as I was yesterday about the whole did-we-set-a-wrongful-precedent thing by sleeping together before marriage. Maybe we did. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
That's ok. I'm one of those people who tends to be so quiet (most of the time) that people will still look at me if I cuss with shock and awe. I think it's kind of cute.
In reality, I'm reasonably hard to shock, at least within what most people consider to be socially acceptable. I truly appreciate your honesty in these threads and nothing you said has really pushed me out of my "comfort zone" (whatever that is).
A bad precedent? Eh, I wouldn't worry too much (not that I really know either of you and have any authority on the subject). If it's done, it's done, and realistically I think the relationship itself is more important than the legal marriage, especially once you're formally married (and congratulations on that front).
My concern with premarital sex is less that it's an unhealthy precedent or that God gets angry if people screw on the night before their wedding, and more that the dissociation of sex from marriage creates a sort of transactional or "me-first" approach to sex where it's all about personal gratification rather than sharing between two people. "I'll only marry you if you're good enough in bed." How good is good enough? How many fucks do you need before you determine that your co-fucker is a worthy fuck?
In a way, I think having the standard of sex and marriage as a measuring stick of sorts is far more important than whether or not every single person abstains perfectly until they're married. You may not have to toe the line perfectly, but it is important to know and respect that line's existence and meaning.
Does that make sense?
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Personally, I'm pretty sure there are exceptions. Someone posted one above involving trying to protect someone in Nazi Germany. I think the question would be whether the existence of exceptions utterly breaks the rule. If some people are allowed to have sex before marriage due to particular circumstances, does that make the whole no-premarital-sex thing meaningless?
Well, I would take it as axiomatic in Christian ethics that every "rule" is just a special case of "love God and love your neighbor as yourself," as applied in some particular set of circumstances. So the question is whether abstaining is more or less loving (in that sense of agape, not just eros) than having sex--in the particular circumstances.
--------------------
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
|
Posted
Nicely said, Timothy--
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
A bad precedent? Eh, I wouldn't worry too much (not that I really know either of you and have any authority on the subject). If it's done, it's done, and realistically I think the relationship itself is more important than the legal marriage, especially once you're formally married (and congratulations on that front).
I always like to point out that the marriage ceremony between Isaac and Rebekah was apparently comprised of him taking her into his tent and making love to her - it was all about intent and not legalism, at least in that case (we could also argue that it's before the Law was given...). quote:
My concern with premarital sex is less that it's an unhealthy precedent or that God gets angry if people screw on the night before their wedding, and more that the dissociation of sex from marriage creates a sort of transactional or "me-first" approach to sex where it's all about personal gratification rather than sharing between two people. "I'll only marry you if you're good enough in bed." How good is good enough? How many fucks do you need before you determine that your co-fucker is a worthy fuck?
"Co-fucker" - wow. quote:
In a way, I think having the standard of sex and marriage as a measuring stick of sorts is far more important than whether or not every single person abstains perfectly until they're married. You may not have to toe the line perfectly, but it is important to know and respect that line's existence and meaning. - Does that make sense?
Yup. It took me a long time but I finally came to recognize that God's direction about sex isn't because He's a killjoy (after all, He created us with the capacity and the desire and made human females orgasmic, unlike most of female creation) but it's protective, boundaries and fences to keep us safe and give us freedom to play with joy and abandon when our playmate does arrive.
--------------------
Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
|
Posted
On the Wrong Sex Acts Thread, LynnMadgaleneCollege had asked,
quote:
...Amber, interesting that being Aspie makes for different compatible issues - I hadn't thought about that, hmmmm. I am thrilled that it worked out well for the two of you - but what do you think your response would have been if it hadn't, if it turned out there really were insurmountable compatibility issues? ..
I think I'd have had to break off the engagement and get me to a nunnery ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Poor hubby wouldn't have deserved a wife who could never be a full sexual partner, and there would have been no young family for either of us. It would have been awful.
I can't speak for everyone on the autistic spectrum, but most have hypersensitivity/'specifics' challenges. If we don't cope with sex/any foreplay elements that are a big part of the process, that's a real problem. Like most women on the spectrum, I find it overwhelming to face someone and be hugged, for example. Men report this less. I can cope if it's a quick hug from son or hubby, but it "hurts". That's the wrong word, but I won't have a word that matches with NT understanding. Some other things "hurt" too, and if it's too much, I shut down. I can't speak when that happens, means that there's a heck of a problem because I'm then in a lot of pain (again, not exactly the right word, but it'll have to do) and can't say that I am, or move to stop it. That's about as frightening as it's possible to get, not what either of us needs to happen. It has happened even with us knowing each other well. There has to be such trust and understanding.
On the other hand, there's lots of forms of physical closeness that I find immensely wonderful, but I'm not making a list
So, to summarise, we did try things out before marriage because of all of this.
(amazing what you find out about neurodiversities on a message board, isn't it... )
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
|
Posted
There are some interesting correspondences with one of my multiple (DID) friends but the basis isn't purely neurological but (perhaps?) a neurological state created by the extreme PTSD developed in infancy/childhood.
I am indeed glad it worked out.
--------------------
Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
There are some interesting correspondences with one of my multiple (DID) friends but the basis isn't purely neurological but (perhaps?) a neurological state created by the extreme PTSD developed in infancy/childhood.
Yes, a DID friend of mine reports the same thing, so I guess it's an extreme survival mechanism that just 'misfires' with autistic spectrum brain-wiring?
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caz...
Shipmate
# 3026
|
Posted
What about people who have been sexually abused or similar? I can imagine them having similar responses in relation to sexual overtures. Is then also okay for them to have sex before marriage? And if it's okay for them, what about people who just find the idea of sex more nerve-wracking than others? Presumably it's okay for them too....
Personally I'm not sure what I think about sex before marriage, fullstop. It's irrelevant for me personally now as I'm married, I guess, and for the record, I wasn't a virgin when I got married. But I'm just still not quite buying the "special cases" logic. I guess I'm thinking that, whatever the special issues, there are ways of gradually working those through and gradually increasing sensitisation, etc, that don't involve having sex before marriage. I am still just uncomfortable with the idea that if things aren't working swimmingly before marriage in whatever department, then the marriage shouldn't go ahead. Surely there's a lifetime to work these things out slowly together when married, and isn't that grace part of the beauty of it? Sure, it might take longer for some than others, and even require professional help in some cases. I recognise that.
Like I say, I'm not even convinced of the premise that we should be aiming for no sex before marriage. I've been back and forth on that subject many times over the years. But I do think that the "we should, except in special cases" argument remains unconvincing to me, and somehow anti to the spirit of marriage, and that accepting each other as we are and working through those things together in the years to come, "in sickness and health, for better or worse" etc somehow feels *more* freeing, not less.
--------------------
"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard
Posts: 1888 | From: here to there | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Thread closed
Printer-friendly view
