I never EVER want to get married, and moreover, never EVER want to have sex!

My parents are committed. Well, my Mum is. I have a lot of admiration for her stubbornness in her faithfulness to the vows she made before God to my Dad.

I have nothing but disdain for some of the ways in which my Dad has treated her. He has belittled her abilities, shouted her down, ignored her needs in preference for his own, left her to cope with an exceedingly difficult son (my brother is a complete shit, mainly due to the fact my Dad hasn't been able to see him as a human being with needs that can only be met by a father), left her on her own with young children for long periods of time (when I was about 3 and my sister was a baby my Dad went away for long stretches overseas; more recently, he moved to the US 2 years before my Mum and the twins moved, coming back every six months to pay brief visits), and, I have reason to suspect, has been unfaithful to her. This makes me angry, because my Mum has been unstinting in her loyalty to my Dad, even telling me off for expressing my anger over his behaviour. It just proves he's yet another sex crazed male, in need of boosting his own ego.

Alot of his problems he inherited from my Opa. My Opa was very violent, owing to bad childhood experiences and having to survive the brutality of the Germans who invaded Holland in WW2. He didn;t know how to relate to his children, with the result my Dad has always stumbled in the dark trying to be a good husband and father.

But it does NOT excuse him from treating my Mum like she's a complete dummie incapable of stringing together a stream of logic.

Now they say girls look for men who are like their fathers (subconsciously of course, because all girls think their fathers are complete wastes of space and try to find someone as different as possible). In that case, I never want to get into a relationship with anyone (I'm pretty sure I'm not gay, which means I don't want a relationship with the opposite sex).

Is sex really that worthwhile? It certainly seems a big deal is made about a few seconds (or was that nanoseconds?) of pleasure and intimacy, which is anticlimactically over so soon. What's so wonderful about it anyway? It merely causes complications of all sorts.

So do away with sex. I certainly don't want to be female anymore (or male either). I don't care that "God made us this way" and "Sex is a gift from God". It's disgusting, and that's the bottom line; from girls waking up to find blood on their sheets and boys getting unwanted wet dreams to honeymoon syndrome and childbirth - it's all completely gross. To say nothing of the constructs around it. If we didn;t have it, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Why do people want to get married today anyway, other than to bonk around and have children (eventually), or to satisfy some convention whether religious or otherwise? Companionship, sure, but surely this is still a mere secondary to sex, as you can have intimate companionship with just about anyone. Come to think of it, why does anyone want to get into a relationship with anyone else? It's all so pointless...

So, I will be a friend, I can be an intimate friend, but don't expect me to bed you, or to wed you. In fact, I think I'd rather starve of human love than be forced into a situation where I am obliged to bed or wed or both. I am perfectly happy in my miserable little hell-hole of a lonely life, thank you very much, and if there is no other way out of it than by sexuality, I'd rather die of loneliness.

It isn't just about no sex outside of marriage. It is about obeying the laws of God, and being people who know how to love.

I'm terribly sorry to hear all of that stuff, and isn't it sad how evil sows evil through generations? The evil of the Nazi's in world war two has echos all the way up to the present day in ways we wouldn't neccessarily think of.

Fortunately, I believe Good can propagate in the same way. God made us relational. We relate to him, we relate to each other. You're quite right this need not neccessarily be sexual. Celebacy may be quite right for some people.

However, I am sure God does not want you to be lonely and you will not always be that way. "I am always with you, even to the very end of the Age".

Sex before marriage?

Biblically, I don't think there is much arguing there. We can talk about being distant in time and culture from biblical eras, but the fact is that the Bible speaks quite clearly about sex outside of marriage being against God's will.

That said, there is a human element to every choice we make to sin. I personally find it really hard to take a call from God in the Bible and put in into practice without first firmly believing it in my heart. The result is that I've made many a mistake and committed many a sin, but in each of those circumstances, God has taught me through that sin experience just why He commands as He does.

I've been married now for about a year and a half. Neither my husband nor I were virgins when we got married, but we each in our separate experiences had shown us both that we wanted to save sex for marriage, to protect ourselves, but to moreso protect each other and our relationship. Our relationship was too important to us to jeopardize it for pleasure that we were going to be able to have in a few months anyway. I can say now it was worth it.

Rachel, you have to make your own choices, and they may not be the same as mine. It ain't easy, eh?

Freddy, I admire your hutzpa in posting about your home town. I just can't hold back from suggesting that you may find someday that all that you believe about its chaste and happy nature is not so rosy. I came from a similar Canadian Bible-believing town and have seen that outward good morals do not exempt a town from struggling from the same issues and demons as everywhere else. Most often, they are just more covered up. We as humans basically have the same struggles, no matter where we come from. So, were those teenagers really not having sex or were they just not talking about the sex they were having.

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Biblically, I don't think there is much arguing there. We can talk about being distant in time and culture from biblical eras, but the fact is that the Bible speaks quite clearly about sex outside of marriage being against God's will.

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My point is that if by act of will or firm belief you are a virgin at marriage you will take that same strong will or firm belief through to its conclusion in dealing with a sexually dysfunctional (or damaging in another way) marriage. It seems to me a logical point to make, why don’t you think its “fair” ?

Matt : glib? are you SURE thats the right word, we could talk about it in hell if you like?

Yes I can exchange horror stories with you. Do not presume upon an ignorance on my part. How many of the k160 abortions are performed for married women ? How many beatings, rapes, systematic abuses go on inside marriage ?

Come on. Marriage is not the Sovereign Remedy and has been used as an abusive tool by a patriarchal society since its conception. Despite the huge steps forward I can not forget that less than 40 years ago women were locked up in insane asylums for having illegitimate children and to this day men use physical and economic force to subjugate there wives. My point was that we could try to seem to be going in the direction of “once you get married everything is cured”, the discussion does not end at marriage. And it was never true.

My point is not that sex inside or outside marriage is right or wrong. But that we seem only to speak about extremes; abstinence or “in marriage”. I agree (and have made the point many times myself) about the extreme degrading of sex by the capitalist regime. And this, by default, points us in the right direction. We need IMHO to be educating people (and ourselves) about the strengths of commitment, fidelity and the joy of a developing sexual relationship. We need to be pointing to marriage as a great gift even a sacrament, we may need to be even discouraging people to enter into this commitment!

We need to be educating our young people not only about the deep, affecting and holy nature of the gift of sex but also about contraception. We should not be presuming to stand on some high moral hillock making ourselves look pious and silly.

I would also like some biblical basis for this idea that sex only in marriage is “sound” if you are going to quote bits of Paul at me when he and all the churches were expecting the judgment that week then Duh. Thanks to Louise for :

“Surely sex between an unmarried couple who are faithful to each other and respectful of each other, is hardly the sort of 'fornication' St Paul was worrying about”

Most of this discussion is far to black and white. We only add to the false idea of sex being sinful by putting it beyond most youngsters reach, mystifying it, trying to make people feel guilty and promoting an ideal that is unattainable and has never been attained. Bluntly ; people screw we can encourage them to be careful in every sense. We can tell them to stop or suggest they get married before they screw. The first idea has my vote because neither of the other two work. If we do what we always did we will get what we always got.

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Originally posted by Matt the Mad Medic:
I think that is very glib statement. For EVERY abortion you can point to an equally horrendous situation inside a marriage?

Ok, in that case I will be requiring you to give 160,000 examples per YEAR for the UK alone then, because that's how many abortions there are.

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First, just what would you, Matt, accept as "an equally horrendous situation inside a marriage" that would be equivalent to an abortion? (If only the actual death of a spouse or child, then consider this discussion ended.) Somehow I don't think you and I would even come close to agreement on this.
The second problem is that abortions are a discrete and concrete event, and thus easily counted. Even if we agreed on a definition of "horrendous situation inside a marriage" (and I'm thinking obvious child and/or spousal abuse), it is much harder to come up with exact numbers, because even if you deal with court convictions, you still have lots of different "offenses" and can debate which ones should be included and which are not really equivalent to abortion. And when you throw in the "PER YEAR" requirement, you make this even more meaningless, because while an abortion happens only once on a particular date, problems within a marriage tend to be on-going, so how can they be assigned to a particular year?

And finally, and most important, why are you using abortion as the equal and oppposite to "good marriage"? You like to cite logic, but these two things just aren't a clear example of "either/or". People in "good" marriages have been known to get abortions, and despite your ex-girlfriend's experience, many women who have abortions (I had five) go on to have happy marriages, bear children (mine seem to be turning out pretty normal), and otherwise get on with life.

Why is it that you keep equating sex before marriage with abortion?

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Nothing enjoys better, more unequivocal media support, than sex. Even the most terrible, hurtful, seedy aspects, like prostitution, aquire a glamourous sheen in our media often.

I am sure this kind of positive propaganda invades everybody's mind much more than we think it does. Mine included.

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I agree with you that the media glamorizes sex, but I think the more important part is that is invades our minds. And that brings up the bigger question of what other things invade our minds? It's not the sex that's the problem, it the way our "Western" culture uses advertising to manipulate our minds and our desires about lots of things.

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Unless you happen to be a social worker or medical worker and in daily contact with the reality, the problem seems much smaller than it actually is.

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I'm not sure what you mean by this. I see lots of really HUGE problems, though not necessarily the ones you see. And why do you think that only you and those like you are "in daily contact with the reality"? It seems to me that Christianity teaches that we are all constantly in contact with reality, and our challenge is to open our eyes and see it.

[UBB fixed]

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I respect the that you have given your opinion on this point. But I suggest both you and Matt may want to broaden your views beyond your own thoughts and experiences, or you may just as well not enjoin debate.

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I should broaden my opinion beyond my own thoughts? Surely if I did that, then those things too would fall within the boundaries of "My own thoughts"?

How can anyone think something or express a viewpoint which is not their "own thought"?

I can express any opinion I like...so long as it's not my own opinion?

Seriously, how can you have a "debate" unless people bring their "own thoughts"? isn't that kind of what a debate is?

Please? Can some other people reassure me I'm not completely completely insane here?

If I express an opinion, it is by defintion "my own thoughts", (unless I'm deliberately playing devils advocate)?

I must say I'm at a bit of a loss. On this board, I've taken a fair bit of critisism, (Some of which I know was justified, again, I would very much like to apologise for being offensive to Joan. I was out of line and admitted as much) but now I'm being told I can express any opinion I like so long as its not my own?

[quote] How many of the k160 abortions are performed for married women ?[quote]

FYI, 66% of the 154,315 abortions carried out in 1995 in England and Wales were on unmarried women.

This becomes more marked when we look at the breakdown of the legal catagory of abortions.

Married women were more likely to have abortions for catagory E reasons (fetal abonormality) In fact 95% of the women in this catagory were married.

The catagory C abortions (emotional wellbeing of the mother) Single women constitute over 70%.

Statistical analysis shows this to be a significant trend.
(Source: Abortion statistics 1995, Office for National Statistics)

Consequently, in view of what you shared about your own personal history, I will decline to answer any further on abortion questions.

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Carys , I respect your view that my point about virginity/ staying in a dysfunctional marriage is not fair. I respect the that you have given your opinion on this point. But I suggest both you and Matt may want to broaden your views beyond your own thoughts and experiences, or you may just as well not enjoin debate. In fact you then progress to not debate this issue at all but to state your thoughts on sex before marriage.

My point is that if by act of will or firm belief you are a virgin at marriage you will take that same strong will or firm belief through to its conclusion in dealing with a sexually dysfunctional (or damaging in another way) marriage. It seems to me a logical point to make, why don’t you think its “fair” ?

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I was questioning the fairness of your implication that all people who choose not to have sex before they get married do so out of fear and guilt and used the example of myself to show that this is not true. I also said that I respected that other people reached a different conclusion.

Are you suggesting everyone should have sex before they get married? Because that's what I almost infer from your posts.

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We need to be educating our young people not only about the deep, affecting and holy nature of the gift of sex but also about contraception. We should not be presuming to stand on some high moral hillock making ourselves look pious and silly.

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I agree (and said something similar in my last post).

I admit that marriages can be hell and I think that people should get out of abusive relationships as fast as possible, but that doesn't mean that all marriage is bad. I'll also admit that marriage has at times seemed to be more about controling women and property than about love, but just because it has been abused as a secular institution does not devalue the ideal of Christian marriage between two equal partners who love each other and are committed to sticking to the relationship 'for better, for worse'.

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Originally posted by Matt the Mad Medic:
Jig, I'm not quite sure what people on this board think of me, but I'm not quite as arrogant and insensitive as some people seem to think.

Consequently, in view of what you shared about your own personal history, I will decline to answer any further on abortion questions.

Save to say, my statistics post shows there is a correlation between sex outside marriage and abortion. I'll leave it at that.

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Host hat on

Matt, please please do leave it at that. You've been bordering on crusading on this topic, which is a violation of one of the ship's commandments. In hell babybear advised that you roam the rest of the ship, giving things here a chance to calm down and giving yourself a chance to reflect. I think that's excellent advice.

“In fact if you are of the extreme to abstain from sex before marriage you are more likely to feel the need to stay in a marriage that is sexually dysfunctional (and hence dysfunctinal in a lot of areas) driven by a similar fear of God, Church and guilt that made you abstain in the first place.”

I imply this in the “fear of God, Church and guilt that made you abstain in the first place.”. But again sorry I see you point.

Matt, An apology to you also, my skirting around your obvious pain over you ex-girlfriends situation caused me to be overly vague about “own thoughts” and “opinions”. I was trying to suggest that you were to close to a painful subject to be clear about it. Sorry, by trying to be tactful I have caused more discomfort. As others have said its probably best to leave it for a while, I will.

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Matt, please please do leave it at that. You've been bordering on crusading on this topic.

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I quite clearly said I would so I will. The hostly reiteration was not required thanks. Good hosting is reactive not pre-emptive.

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“fear of God, Church and guilt that made you abstain in the first place.”. But again sorry I see you point.

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What if it's love of God not fear of God that's the motivation?

What if it's not restrictive rule following, but your abstinance is a "Glad offering" To the Lord to honour him?

The point of old testament sacrifices was surely not that people went away from them grumpy at what the Lord had just taken from them, but rejoicing because they were thinking on what the Lord had done for them?

I rather think, if I could justify it for no other reason, abstaining till marriage is (for me) a kind of Faith Offering to God. Trusting that ultimately, the giver of all good things will give you something good at the end of it. It's a way of showing faithfulness to a faithful God.

At a completely personal level, I see abstinance as being usable by Christians as an offering in much the same way as some Christians use fasting. It's something I'm giving to God, not something he's taking from me.

If being a Christian means "Giving my life to the Lord" (and I honestly don't know if we are all agreed on that. Then I for one know that I am not giving all my money, or all my words, or all my deeds to him.

But I'd be interested to hear what others who are more staunchly Christian think about (homosexuality).

This is an issue which has bedevilled the Church in Australia, and apparently in other countries, for some years. The problem seems to have arisen because some Christians with homosexual leanings have called on secular concepts of "anti-discrimination" to claim recognition for their
"sexual preference", even to the extent of being admitted to Ordination as ministers or priests of the Church. Many others, including Church leaders, afraid of being dubbed "wowsers", "puritanical", "self-righteous", "judgmental", "unloving",and many other fashionable ecclesiastical dirty words, have been disinclined to question their claim.

The situation has not been helped by the fact that there still in our communities, even our own congregations, many who by their virulent homophobic stance have perpetuated the myth that homosexuality is the one unforgivable sin. Some people have only to hear the word "homosexual" for their minds to blow a mental fuse, and they will rant without rhyme or reason for as long as it takes for repairs to be made. For instance, I preached on Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch, pointing out that this was a daring step in that God was sending Philip to evangelise someone whom as a Jew he would have been conditioned to believe was outside the pale of God's love on two counts - he was a Gentile, and he was a eunuch. I went on to suggest that God still challenges us about the "Christian" attitudes we take about who is "in" or "out" of the Kingdom, and in passing mentioned Homosexuals as possibly one such group. A woman in the congregation went for me like a Bondi tram afterwards, accusing me of "promoting homosexuality" and everything else until I decided I didn't have to take this and gave her back as good as I got!.. She subsequently rang to apologize, but I have never seen in at that church since!

On the other hand, some years ago when the national Assembly of the Uniting Church in Australia was debating a resolution to permit the ordination of homosexuals and lesbians, a leading woman minister caused considerable furor and gained national media attention by publicly declaring herself a lesbian, saying in effect, "Look at me, I'm a lesbian, what are you going to do about it?" She has since retired, but many thought she should have been dismissed on the spot, not so much because she was a lesbian, but because she held the Body of Christ in such low regard that she was prepared to publicly blackmail into accepting her viewpoint (it didn't work - the resolution was not passed, though it will undoubtedly come up again one day!)

We have seen therefore arrogance, bigotry and lack of love at both ends ofthe spectrum, and many of us are caught in the middle, wanting to accept homosexuals as Christ would have accepted them - as he accepted prostitutes and tax-collectors. But we are still very aware that the whole tenor of both OT and NT teaching is that homosexuality in any shape or form has no place in God's scheme of things, and that this is by no means altered by the fact that we now have far greater understanding of the causes, physical or psychological, of homosexuality.

That being said, we must also bear in mind that neither do self-righteous judgmentalism and bigotry have any place in God's scheme. Again we take as our guide the practice of Jesus, who welcomed sinners but did not condone their behaviour. The story in John 8:1-11 (the woman taken in adultery) could equally well have been told of two men caught in sodomy: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone . . . Has no one condemned you? Then neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more". But remember Paul later was to describe homosexuality and lesbianism as the botom rung of the ladder humans climb down whenthey turn their backs on God and move away from him.

There are many more things I could say, but I think I've gone on long enough for now. Perhaps I'll post another contribution to this thread later, when maybeI have had some responses to this one, and canguagewhether it is being helpful at all.

I have been married for nearly three years and it has been a positive experience for me and hopefully my wife

That said I often think about the words love and faithfulness being bound round my neck and what that means for me especially in the context of my marriage as a Christian.

My Vicar kinda said a funny remark about the way my wife show affection in Church for each other(Holiding her hands and putting my arms around her) and I was a bit sharp and said at least if things are bad you'll know about it!! Where else can I show love for my wife but in God's yard!! Chuh!!

The thing for me is that church is not always a safe space pastorally to talk about sex - how many of us would talk like this in our spaces and places of worship - few of us and yet there is so much emphasis on this. I find it frightening. We want to prescribe yet offer no support. I feel like I wanna say not being voyeuristic - what about sex within marriage and sustaining marriages to be lifelong - but that is another thread(s).

My key concern as someone who engages with teenagers is having safe relationships and being able to cope mentally and emotionally, with this and whether sex before marriage must be a pre-requisite for a valid relationship. Having loads of sexual partners must bring its own baggage in the formation of relationships for a fair few people.

For every action there must be a reaction.

Final point in this discussion there are two strands.

Those who are Christians and know the teachings on sex and marriage and how that is worked through. How do we support each other constructively in having relationships that reflect Christ within and outside of marriage.

Those who are not Christians and their understandings on sex and marriage. What are the consequences of serial monogamy and unions that are sustainable outside of a religious context, and what is happening to community and what dialogue are we having.

Who is informing who and whose values is a question that I ask. Where is the dialogue beyond these boards?

All I can say is thank God for his grace and people like yourselves that are grappling with issues on different levels and sharing in real way.

It's appreciated.

It's a sin - much the same as any other sin - why get so hung up about it - we wouldn't spend this much time talking about cheating the tax man out of a few pounds (would we ?) but its still a sin.

Like all sins, it can be confessed, absolved and forgiven. Let's remember - Jesus is about love, not law.

Can't say I'm even Christian or even staunchly anything except an agnostic who has occasionally wondered about 13 guys sans femmes hanging out exclusively for long stretches at a time. Wasn't no football or rugby club, either or - heh- British public school.
No earthly pay, certainly no off-seasons, either.

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Originally posted by rachel_o:
... Having been engaged for nearly two years, ... all the reasons for not having sex that we had when we were first together no longer seemed to make sense.
... My fiance and I share almost everything -... we are utterly commited to each other. ... Seriously, what do you all think?

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Sorry to hack what you've said so much ... I hope I've not lost the gist.

I think the thing here is that the Wedding will make no real difference at all to the relationship you have. Big weddings that take months (years?) to organise are a cultural tradition, and not specifically a Christian thing.

The important bit is a long-term commitment to each other - that's what being husband and wife is really about.

However, I am not sure we should be bound biblically on this. It could be said that the main aim of the Biblical model is to prevent the birth of children outside marriage, and as the advent of birth-control has changed the situation so radically that its teaching no longer need be taken literally.

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Originally posted by rachel_o:
The bible seems pretty silent on marriage as a formal ceremonial event - as has been discussed here before. Old testament marriage seems to be more pragmatic - sort of along the lines of move out from parents house, move in with spouse - OK, now you're married.

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I can see how that relates to, "a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife."

But how exactly does that relate to, I move out of my parents' house and move in somewhere else on my own. Or with flat mates with whom I am not in any way sexually involved?

If this question has been discussed somewhere, please point me in the right direction.

{two apparently identical posts deleted by TonyK - finger/computer trouble perhaps, Likeness?}

Sorry to jump in the middle of things here, but I don't have anywhere else to post this since the original post I'm responding to must have been on T'n'T which has now closed. Apparently Tubbs wrote:

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The only decent book on this is Veronica Zundel's Going Out... But of course it's out of print.[/B]

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I'd just like to inform folks who might like to know that it's still available from

Veronica Zundel
72 Wilton Road
London N10 1LT